Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Ok Bir, so you refuse to answer my question about "when and how the notion of Greekness begun", but will you tell me why you only made a reference to Turkisness and not to Greekness?

It is my belief,Eric,that the Ottoman's did not bring the notion of "Turkishness" to Cyprus. And there was no mention of Turkishness or anything do do with the Turkish people during the Ottoman rule. On the other hand,it is a historical fact that Hellenism,symbolised by the Greek Orthodox religion, the Greek language,and the Greek culture and civilisation, has been a part of Cyprus landscape for thousands of years.

I would stand corrected if you can provide any evidence that there was any mention of Turks or Turkishness before 1878...

This "Turkishness" and "Greekness" is what I find really interesting. Is there any reliable information on the ethnic mix on the island from Venitian times until today. I read somewhere that Turkish Cypriots/muslims were at one time the majority, if so was this because of conversion or movement of population. I recall that many TCs left Cyprus because of the First World War, how did this affect the population mix? Is it possible that, genetically, Turkish Cypriots are more likey to be related to Julius Caesar or Plato than Ataturk?

Fascinating stuff about the sequence of events leading up to the UN Resolution, I wonder how many people were aware if it. It looks like the Colonial Power has a lot to answer for.

Can anybody help us out? But please let it be reliable information as Jerry requested...

Colonial/imperial powers have a lot to answer for,Jerry...The British empire was no exeption...

[Nikitas]

I cannot comment on Turkishness, but have some thing to add as to Greek national consciousness.

As a non religious person, and occasionally hostile towards the church, I still recognise a huge debt we owe to the Greek Orthodox Church for saving the biggest single factor that unites a nation (in the braod non political sense) - its language. The church service which Greeks all over the world attend every Sunday is in the language used way back during the founding of the church. This is a vitally important factor in retaining the awareness of belonging and saving our language in a pure form for two thousand years.

The second factor not recognised by many, is the ritual of the service itself. It is based on ancient Greek drama, complete with its chorus. Others, like professor Yannaras, have written about this so there is no need to go into it any further.

And now we come to the built in paradox that plagues Greeks. On one side we have the Christian tradition which is monotheistic and went through a thousand year long period of dominance and glory during the Byzantine Empire. On the other is the pre Christian Hellenistic tradition on, which must be damned because it was pagan but cannot be denied because it was a time of huge achievement in human development.

You can see this schizoid split illustrated in the expression of a priest when you tell him that you will baptise your baby, which pleases him, and you will name him Socrates, which makes his expression change. There is no Saint Socrates, and he tries to convince you to choose a name of a saint, Nicholas, Constantine, Markos.

The attempts to revive the ancient pagan religion are causing a stir in the Orthodox church these days. It will be interesting to see how things develop.

There are those who have tried to deny any link between modern Greece and today's Greeks and the ancients. The impulse is understandable, especially when expressed by northern Europeans. They do not want to admit that the loud and brash Greeks of today can be connected to philosophy and all that high stuff they consider to be the foundation of western culture. Well, Cicero, the Roman sanator and author, writing in 72 BC wrote about his travels to Greece and the Greeks of the time. If you did not know the date and read his stuff you would think he is describing Greeks of today. And emperor Augustus describes how his Greek doctor was interested in money more than anything, no need to say any more.

[Nikitas]

"At the end of British rule Cyprus must be returned to her previous ruler! "

Put this demand in its temporal and historical context- the late 50s. At a time when the world was going through rapid decolonisation and the principle of self determination was a mainstay in international developments, when former colonies gained independence at a staggering rate there is a demand for RECOLONISATION of Cyprus.

To put it another way, the Turkish delegation to the UN was pushed into asking for approval to turn the 82 per cent of the population into a new colony established in the late 20th century had to ignore the right of self determination of 82 per cent of Cypriots. It was a unique demand, to turn a European people into colonial subjects when Indians and Africans were being liberated, and this originated from a European power and seconded by the Americans. And then we wonder why hardliner nationalists like Tassos Papadopoulos hold sway in Cyprus!

It is impossible not to compare this demand to Enosis and judge which fate would be worse- the 18 per cent of the population coming under Greek rule or the 82 per cent coming under Turkish rule.

But it is clear that the legitimate worry of the TCs that they would become subjects of Greece, became a demand that the other side should become subjects of Turkey. It is amazing that the diplomatic minds involved in this situation did not realise the reaction that both of these positions would raise in the other side.

[Jerry]

But it is clear that the legitimate worry of the TCs that they would become subjects of Greece, became a demand that the other side should become subjects of Turkey. It is amazing that the diplomatic minds involved in this situation did not realise the reaction that both of these positions would raise in the other side.

I don't think the diplomatic minds cared about the reactions. My guess is colonial power wanted to create a conflict that would justify its hanging on to the island. Diplomatic divide and rule.

[denizaksulu]

But it is clear that the legitimate worry of the TCs that they would become subjects of Greece, became a demand that the other side should become subjects of Turkey. It is amazing that the diplomatic minds involved in this situation did not realise the reaction that both of these positions would raise in the other side.

I don't think the diplomatic minds cared about the reactions. My guess is colonial power wanted to create a conflict that would justify its hanging on to the island. Diplomatic divide and rule.

...and dont we know about it. Now we suffer.

[BirKibrisli]

Lets jump-cut to 1954...We are at the UN and Greece has just applied for the recognition of the rights of GCs to self-determination, allowing for Enosis to happen...

Alarmed by this the TCs sent a committee to Ankara to meet with Adnan Menderes,PM..The delegation is led by Mr Faiz kaymak, the Head of Federation of Turkish Cypriot Associations,and included two lawyers,Ahmet Mithat Berberoglu and Ahmet Zaim..

On the 15 September 1954 the delegation meet the Turkish PM at Florya palace...FAiz kaymak himself describes the talks in his 1968 book "How Did TCs find themselves in this Situation" :

" We talked for one-and -half hours about the political situation in Cyprus,the fears of the TCs,and Turkey's opinion on the matter...At one point The Prime Minister took a sheet of paper out of his pocket and handed it to me. 'here...read this...it's from the US...You have nothing to fear,there will be NO ENOSIS...Greece might be making demands at the UN,but the US has promised me,THERE WILL BE NO ENOSIS'...

"The next day we met with Turkish President,Celal Bayar...He had this advice for us -' You must demand that the British rule continues in Cyprus... You have to support the British or they are headed for a fall '...

In a previous meeting with the Turkish Foreign Minister,Fuat Koprulu,the delegation got a message which was most disturbing : " It is Turkey's principle not to interfere in other nations' internal affairs...Since Cyprus is a British colony we have no policy or claim on her..."

The TC delegation was dismayed. They were leaving for England the next day,and they decided to take direct action. They visited the influential editor of the Hurriyet Newspaper,Sedat Semavi,and told him about Fuat Koprulu's statement...The next day the delegations fears and dilemma were front page news all over Turkey...

It would be interesting of course to be able to search Hurriyet's archives,and find out exactly was was written,and how it was received.
But we can safely assume this was the beginning of the awakening of the Turkish public opinion regarding the "Cyprus Problem"...

The TC delegation,on a mission to derail Enosis,continues on to England where they meet the Minister for Colonies,Henry Hopkinson,on 17 September 1954.
Let's hear it from the leader of the TC delegation,Faiz Kaymak himself:

" ...Our talk with the British minister lasted for over an hour...We told him what Menderes and Bayar told us to say : 'We want the British rule in Cyprus to continue...' His reply surprised us, "It is shameful for you to say you want the colonial rule to continue in this day and age,said Minister Hopkinson," what you want to say is 'we want Cyprus returned to her previous ruler'"... We said 'fine,that's what we want'.
'I am not the one you have to say it to,' continued minister Hopkinson,'You must go to the US and say it to the Americans'...

We said we had no tickets or visas to go to the US.
He said not to worry,they would fix everything up for us..

Hence,on 24 September,1954 the TC delegation found themselves on an unexpected trip to the United States. In New York they were met by a British official to the UN and taken to the Commodore Hotel.The following day the same British official accompanied the delegation to the UN building where they met the Americans and made their wish known: They wanted Cyprus to be returned to her previous ruler,if and when the British withdrew from the island.

And on 27 September,1954,again on the advice of the British official,they met the Turkish Amabassador to UN,Selim Sarper,to request that in his coming UN address he includes a new demand by Turkey,namely that Cyprus to be returned to her previous ruler,when the British rule ends.
Mr Sarper told the delegation he could not possibly made such a demand without the authorisation of his government. Faiz Kaymak recounts how they went back and informed the British of Mr Sarper's dilemma.Soon the Turkish ambassador to UN recalls the TC delegation for urgent talks.
And Selim Sarper's official address to the UN general council now includes an unexpected new demand : At the end of British rule Cyprus must be returned to her previous ruler!

And before long Greece's official request for the right to self determination to be extended to Cypriots as One nation was defeated at the UN...

The date of the UN defeat was 14 December 1954...
All indications are that Greece was not particularly keen to get involved in Cypriot affairs. At the beginning at least. I believe it was Makarios and The Church which kept up a relentless political pressure on the Greek government to convince them to come to the party.

It must not have been easy for Greece to be linked with an armed struggle against the British.After all, if was the British which helped Greece achieve independence and become a nation state. The British was also instrumental in Crete becoming part of Greece. And it was the British who stopped the socialist alliance from coming to power in greece after WW2,hence delivering political power to the right wing forces.

But Greece knew the British would never give up Cyprus without a bloody struggle. I believe Makarios was personally responsible for recruiting Grivas and starting the armed struggle for independence and Enosis on 1 April 1955.

Not very many people took EOKA seriously at the beginning. Cypriots were in awe of the military power of their coloniser. They never gave EOKA a serious chance of success. But those in charge of EOKA knew what they had to do. Like every underground organisation their only real option was to spread terror in the hearts of their opponents,and fear,awe and obedience in the heart of their own people. For that blood had to be shed. And so it came to pass.

The fear inspired by the EOKA propelled the TCs to find their own underground organisation,VOLKAN,lead by Dr Kuchuk. Volkan's mission was similar to the Eoka's : To spread awe,fear and terror in the hearts of their opponents including those withing the TC commmunity. Their method of action was also similar : intimidation,violence and bloodshed. In November,1957 Volkan gave way to a more aggressive underground organisation TMT,lead by Rauf Denktash. TMT's first official statement was aimed at the TCs. It demanded complete obedience,and was accompanied by a chilling warning. "We don't want to believe that there will be traitors amongst us in this struggle,but any act of treachery will be mercilessly crushed..."

The scene was thus set for the main event. The bloody division of a people,a nation,and a country...

[Tim Drayton]

Just as an aside in connection with Nikitas's comments about the use of pagan names, I have long wondered about a very provocative street name you can find in the small village of Fasoula close to Limassol. This village is very interesting in a number of regards: it was once a mixed village and seems never to have been given a "pure Turkish" name during the TMT's Turkification programme.

However, Fasoula's greatest claim to fame is that it was one of the last strongholds of the ancient pagan religion at a time when the island was undergoing conversion to Christianity. It was home to the sanctuary of Lavronius Zeus and there was a local cult which worshipped this deity. I have climbed up to where this sanctuary used to be located and there is a marvellous view of Limassol, the salt lakes and Akrotiri peninsula from here.

I think it was in the sixth century that Saint Reginald came here to convert the inhabitants of this village to Christianity. The locals were not interested and quite brutally murdered Saint Reginald. Today in the middle of the village there is a massive church - much larger than the churches you will see in any village in Cyprus - named St. Reginald's. My guess is that this huge church was built to atone for the sins of the villagers for having murdered this saint, whose mausoleum you can visit in the village.

You can find some information about the history of Fasoula from the village's own webiste:
http://www.fasoula.org/users/site/english/history.shtml

What I find really amazing is that, now they have introduced street names to villages the name of the main thoroughfare leadingout of the village in the direction of this ancient pagan sanctuary is: Lavronius Zeus Street! I have always thought this to be a bit cheeky. It even makes me wonder if some people are clandestinely keeping the ancient cult alive.

I hope I am not detracting from the seriousness of this thread with this anecdotal aside.

[zan]

Ok Bir, so you refuse to answer my question about "when and how the notion of Greekness begun", but will you tell me why you only made a reference to Turkisness and not to Greekness?

It is my belief,Eric,that the Ottoman's did not bring the notion of "Turkishness" to Cyprus. And there was no mention of Turkishness or anything do do with the Turkish people during the Ottoman rule. On the other hand,it is a historical fact that Hellenism,symbolised by the Greek Orthodox religion, the Greek language,and the Greek culture and civilisation, has been a part of Cyprus landscape for thousands of years.

I would stand corrected if you can provide any evidence that there was any mention of Turks or Turkishness before 1878...

I really don't get what this is all about.....Under Ottoman rule there were Ottoman Turks and Ottomans that spoke Greek..........

[Nikitas]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

[zan]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....