Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Ok Bir, so you refuse to answer my question about "when and how the notion of Greekness begun", but will you tell me why you only made a reference to Turkisness and not to Greekness?

It is my belief,Eric,that the Ottoman's did not bring the notion of "Turkishness" to Cyprus. And there was no mention of Turkishness or anything do do with the Turkish people during the Ottoman rule. On the other hand,it is a historical fact that Hellenism,symbolised by the Greek Orthodox religion, the Greek language,and the Greek culture and civilisation, has been a part of Cyprus landscape for thousands of years.

I would stand corrected if you can provide any evidence that there was any mention of Turks or Turkishness before 1878...

I really don't get what this is all about.....Under Ottoman rule there were Ottoman Turks and Ottomans that spoke Greek..........

No,Zan...The term "Ottoman Turks" were invented by British historians after the collapse of the Ottoman empire in the early 1920s. The Ottomans never called themselves Turkish. In fact the Turkish-speaking subjects of the Empire were often discriminated against and oppressed,especially after Fatih sultan Mehmet era...During the Ottoman rule (1571-1878) in Cyprus there was no mention ever of "Turks".Only Muslims and Non-muslims (or Infidels!).

[BirKibrisli]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

Zan...I don't think Nikitas is ignoring the fact that Megalo idea had been around for hundreds of years. And I don't think any one person can judge and make a decision on what really happened...That is not the point of this exercise anyway. But to dig up those relevant facts which are often swept under the carpet for various reasons,and present them in an objective and orderly manner. What do you think about that stuff I dug up about the intriguing British footwork to manufacture discontentment and division between the communities???

[RebelWithoutAPause]

There are those who have tried to deny any link between modern Greece and today's Greeks and the ancients. The impulse is understandable, especially when expressed by northern Europeans. They do not want to admit that the loud and brash Greeks of today can be connected to philosophy and all that high stuff they consider to be the foundation of western culture. Well, Cicero, the Roman sanator and author, writing in 72 BC wrote about his travels to Greece and the Greeks of the time. If you did not know the date and read his stuff you would think he is describing Greeks of today. And emperor Augustus describes how his Greek doctor was interested in money more than anything, no need to say any more.

The idea that the Greeks in Greece are no relation to the ancient Greeks and are not really Greek at all came from a Nazi scientist. After Greece refused to join the Nazi campaign during WW2, Germany would have been seen as contradicting itself by fighting and oppressing the Greeks as they held the ancient Greek world in awe. Therefore, a Nazi scientist made up a notion that those in Greece are not really Greek at all and the ancient Greeks were wiped out by invading forces such as the Persians, various tribes / hordes (Visigoths, etc), Turks etc over the years. Therefore, it gave them the excuse to use aggression against the people of Greece.

Its funny how I hear many Turks believe the same concept as this Nazi scientist.

[Piratis]

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

If we are going to judge, then the blame obviously lies with the Ottoman oppressors, not with the Greek nation that wanted its liberation.

Are you going to tell me that in the following event who was right where the Ottomans and who were wrong where the Cypriots?

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

So of course we wanted our freedom, and of course we fought for it. You should be the one apologizing here for the hardships and suffering you have caused to us, not talk as if our desire for freedom was a crime and you had the right to punish us for it.

As I said earlier I understand the fears that the Muslim minorities that existed in Greek territories (including Cyprus) had in the event of those territories being liberated, and therefore I excuse your reaction to our struggle and your colaboration with the British. Now can you get out of your Turkish brainwashed mentality and understand that the Greek nation, including Cyprus, had every right to fight for its freedom? Or is this asking for too much from you?

It is obvious that a true independence would be a good compromise that could satisfy both the desires of the Cypriot people as a whole for freedom and self-determination, while at the same time removing any fears the the TC minority might had in the event of Cyprus becoming part of the Greek state. That would be a fair solution that could create a truly democratic and truly independent Cyprus.
Unfortunately removing your fears was not enough for you, and you collaborated even further with the colonialists in order to satisfy your greed and have unfair gains on our loss.

[Jerry]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

You are missing the point Zan, it seems that Turkey was not interested in Cyprus (even though they were aware of the Megali idea?) until Britain maliciously encouraged the TCs resist GC demands for their freedom from colonial rule.

[Viewpoint]

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

If we are going to judge, then the blame obviously lies with the Ottoman oppressors, not with the Greek nation that wanted its liberation.

Are you going to tell me that in the following event who was right where the Ottomans and who were wrong where the Cypriots?

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

So of course we wanted our freedom, and of course we fought for it. You should be the one apologizing here for the hardships and suffering you have caused to us, not talk as if our desire for freedom was a crime and you had the right to punish us for it.

As I said earlier I understand the fears that the Muslim minorities that existed in Greek territories (including Cyprus) had in the event of those territories being liberated, and therefore I excuse your reaction to our struggle and your colaboration with the British. Now can you get out of your Turkish brainwashed mentality and understand that the Greek nation, including Cyprus, had every right to fight for its freedom? Or is this asking for too much from you?

It is obvious that a true independence would be a good compromise that could satisfy both the desires of the Cypriot people as a whole for freedom and self-determination, while at the same time removing any fears the the TC minority might had in the event of Cyprus becoming part of the Greek state. That would be a fair solution that could create a truly democratic and truly independent Cyprus.
Unfortunately removing your fears was not enough for you, and you collaborated even further with the colonialists in order to satisfy your greed and have unfair gains on our loss.

And how do you exactly propose to do that? Akritas? or return to consitution you tried to change yet cling onto so dearly today? Neither will attract unification, do you not realize this?

[Viewpoint]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

You are missing the point Zan, it seems that Turkey was not interested in Cyprus (even though they were aware of the Megali idea?) until Britain maliciously encouraged the TCs resist GC demands for their freedom from colonial rule.

If you were a TC would you want to hand over your country to Greece? Of course we had to fight back for what we believe is right, exactly as we do today.

[zan]

Ok Bir, so you refuse to answer my question about "when and how the notion of Greekness begun", but will you tell me why you only made a reference to Turkisness and not to Greekness?

It is my belief,Eric,that the Ottoman's did not bring the notion of "Turkishness" to Cyprus. And there was no mention of Turkishness or anything do do with the Turkish people during the Ottoman rule. On the other hand,it is a historical fact that Hellenism,symbolised by the Greek Orthodox religion, the Greek language,and the Greek culture and civilisation, has been a part of Cyprus landscape for thousands of years.

I would stand corrected if you can provide any evidence that there was any mention of Turks or Turkishness before 1878...

I really don't get what this is all about.....Under Ottoman rule there were Ottoman Turks and Ottomans that spoke Greek..........

No,Zan...The term "Ottoman Turks" were invented by British historians after the collapse of the Ottoman empire in the early 1920s. The Ottomans never called themselves Turkish. In fact the Turkish-speaking subjects of the Empire were often discriminated against and oppressed,especially after Fatih sultan Mehmet era...During the Ottoman rule (1571-1878) in Cyprus there was no mention ever of "Turks".Only Muslims and Non-muslims (or Infidels!).

About bloody time and all.......Exactly the point...There were no Turks as such but Ottomans. When Turkey was formed only then did we become Turks. What has all this got to do with where we are today. Another smoke screen by which people that think they own the whole island are making up stories to please themselves.

Besides all of that confusion of Turks and Ottomans, in which every Google result makes mention of Ottoman Turks..Wrongly.., It is about as relevant as that bloody idiot Rebel mentioning that Cyprus was once connected to Turkey that did not even exist then so who cares.

[zan]

Both EOKA and TMT controlled their own people. However, from what I read in Bir's account of growing up in Cyprus and from other sources, it iseems cler that TMT had a much stronger grip on the TC community than EOKA did on the GCs.

EOKA was directly in the sights of the British, and pursued with zeal. The preventive imprisonment of thousands of GCs withouth trial in the internment camps, the hangings for even minor offences like possessing shotgun ammunition, show how the British faced EOKA men or even mere suspects. This diminished the ability of EOKA to operate within the urban areas of Cyprus.

One example is the "alatza" campaign when EOKA asked GCs to wear clothes made of the local cloth "alatza". Some obeyed, most did not and there were no repercussions simply because EOKA could not discipline them, it did not have that capability. That is not to say that EOKA did not assassinate persons it considered informants or opponents to the cause, it did.

TMT operated more freely than EOKA. There were no major operations against the TMT by the British, and the few arrests of persons for arms possession did not culminate in court cases or convictions. The most notorious case being that of sergeant Tuna who was caught with arms but somehow managed to escape from the British and end up in Turkey. This freedom of operation allowed TMT to hold the TC community under control.

A personal memory which is still vivid, was the assassination attempt against a TC by the TMT in our street in Nicosia. It happened in broad daylight and the victim ran into a neighbor's house trying to ask for help in broken Greek with blood running down his chest. The gunman ran off towards the Turkish neighborhood which was two blocks away. Our parents ran out to drag us children into the house before the British came and took us all in for questioning. Within seconds the street was totally empty.

The first sign of the TMTs existence we saw was a newspaper cartoon showing Cyprus with an axe across it and the word TAKSIM on it. Then in 1958 came the first attacks on our neighborhoods under the passive eyes of the British. Looking back on that passivity, it is clear that the British planned and wanted things that way. One night a fire was raging in a timber store in the Ermou street area and we watched from our balconies, we were under curfew and could not even open our front doors without being arrested. The sound of a mob was coming closer and one lady said to a British sergeant "Johnny, do something" and his response: "ask EOKA to help you". It was a pissed off soldier's spontaneous response but it porbably was the official intention too.

We did ask EOKA for protection and what we got were instructions to form a "civil defence" which were people with flashlights and whistles sitting on roofs watching for incursions by TC mobs from the Turkish area of Nicosia. There were many nights we got up and rushed to the roof falsely alarmed by the incessant whistling started by some whistle happy asshole.

The nett result of this was the birth of an "us and them" attitude reinforced by the TMT imposed geographical separation. We could no longer enter the Turkish area of Nicosia for shopping and we saw fewer and fewer TCs in our areas. In fact the only TCs we saw were auxiliary police officers. Like Bir said, this was the setting for the main event and it was largely planned or at least allowed to happen by the British.

I have all but given up on this thread If you are not going to judge and make a decision on what really happened Bir then this is all a waste of time. Nikitas is clearly ignoring the fact that the Megali idea had been going for hundreds of years and that ENOSIS was a very real concept then he will keep coming to the same conclusion every time which is wrong....

You are missing the point Zan, it seems that Turkey was not interested in Cyprus (even though they were aware of the Megali idea?) until Britain maliciously encouraged the TCs resist GC demands for their freedom from colonial rule.

The statement was put out because Britain gave assurances that the island would not be handed over to the Greeks.....Can you people please try and see this from a perspective other than that of the Greek side. Territorial waters should give you some idea that your statement is wrong but alas you are thinking only of one side....

[Piratis]

And how do you exactly propose to do that? Akritas? or return to consitution you tried to change yet cling onto so dearly today? Neither will attract unification, do you not realize this?

If you had not collaborated with the colonialists to force on the Cypriot people a constitution where the TC minority was given unfair gains on the loss of all other Cypriots then we wouldn't want to change anything.

What is needed to create an independent and democratic Cyprus with no racist discriminations is as clear today as it was in 1959. The problem is that UK and Turkey with the colaboration of the TC minority did not, and do not, allow Cyprus to have a true independence and a true democracy because they want to keep in Cyprus two separate and conflicting sides which in turn will allow them to control the island and maintain their troops in our country.