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READY FOR A NEW PARTNERSHIP BASED ON POLITICAL EQUALITY

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Pyrpolizer » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:44 pm

wrote: Neither Makarios nor any of those "Presidents" you listed above or TPapadope ever even tried to ask us to return to the 1960 Constitution and that is only because they and you don't want to, what they want is the same as in 1963, to be the sole rulers of the whole of the island and us TCs as second class minority citizens. You know what you can do with that don't you kick-a-poo?



Just for your information Dayi boy

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cmnews/2 ... mnews.html

Denktash said that despite earlier pledges made to the Turkish Cypriot side that the process would be between "two equal parties", the "non-paper" presented by Annan portrayed the Turkish Cypriot side as a community. "That cannot be accepted," he said. Denktash said that even though over the past four rounds there had been talk by the secretary-general and his envoy about a rotating presidency and the political equality of the two parties, all of a sudden Annan had revived the 1960 formula of a Greek Cypriot president and Turkish Cypriot vice-president and brushed aside the principle of political equality of the two parties, instead talking about the "effective participation" of Turkish Cypriots in the government.

"This is an attempt to revive the 1960 system. We shall not accept that," he said. Stressing the proximity talks process would come to an end unless the secretary-general withdrew his "non-paper," Denktash accused Annan of totally ignoring the security concerns of the Turkish Cypriot people. "The changing security concerns were totally ignored. On the one hand our state is asked to make large-scale territorial concessions to Greek Cypriots, and on the other we're asked to allow large number of Greek Cypriots to settle in the north.
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:48 am

umit07 wrote:Kikapu


Kikapu wrote:"let me give you my understanding of the situation as a TC"




Firstly from the stuff you have been writing on the forum I find it very hard to believe you are a TC.


Join the club umit07. :lol:

I'm always hoping educated people can see reality and leave the propaganda and bullshit behind. The question is, are you ready to be one of those persons ??.

Speaking the truth does not mean one is insulting or betraying their own kind. On the contrary, it will make them a "honest society". I want a honest TC society and I don't care what the "propaganda lemmings" call me.
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Postby utu » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:57 am

Kikapu wrote:Join the club umit07. :lol:

I'm always hoping educated people can see reality and leave the propaganda and bullshit behind. The question is, are you ready to be one of those persons ??.

Speaking the truth does not mean one is insulting or betraying their own kind. On the contrary, it will make them a "honest society". I want a honest TC society and I don't care what the "propaganda lemmings" call me.


The problem, Kikapu, is that there is so many variants of 'truth', that it is getting harder to discern bare facts.
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:01 am

utu wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Join the club umit07. :lol:

I'm always hoping educated people can see reality and leave the propaganda and bullshit behind. The question is, are you ready to be one of those persons ??.

Speaking the truth does not mean one is insulting or betraying their own kind. On the contrary, it will make them a "honest society". I want a honest TC society and I don't care what the "propaganda lemmings" call me.


The problem, Kikapu, is that there is so many variants of 'truth', that it is getting harder to discern bare facts.


Isn't that the TRUTH, utu.!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:36 am

Kikapu wrote:
umit07 wrote:Kikapu


Kikapu wrote:"let me give you my understanding of the situation as a TC"




Firstly from the stuff you have been writing on the forum I find it very hard to believe you are a TC.


Join the club umit07. :lol:

I'm always hoping educated people can see reality and leave the propaganda and bullshit behind. The question is, are you ready to be one of those persons ??.

Speaking the truth does not mean one is insulting or betraying their own kind. On the contrary, it will make them a "honest society". I want a honest TC society and I don't care what the "propaganda lemmings" call me.


The truth is the truth according to individuals perspectives and if that is biased like yours then you do not get anywhere near the real truth.
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 am

Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
umit07 wrote:Kikapu


Kikapu wrote:"let me give you my understanding of the situation as a TC"




Firstly from the stuff you have been writing on the forum I find it very hard to believe you are a TC.


Join the club umit07. :lol:

I'm always hoping educated people can see reality and leave the propaganda and bullshit behind. The question is, are you ready to be one of those persons ??.

Speaking the truth does not mean one is insulting or betraying their own kind. On the contrary, it will make them a "honest society". I want a honest TC society and I don't care what the "propaganda lemmings" call me.


The truth is the truth according to individuals perspectives and if that is biased like yours then you do not get anywhere near the real truth.


It is also those who cannot handle the Truth Truth, that they know is the Truth Truth, who start to look for an escape from the Truth Truth but cannot, so they start to label those who tell the Truth Truth as being biased or worse.

"Dogruyu söyleyeni 9 köyden kovarlar".

"Those who tell the truth are chased from 9 villages".

How True True the above old Turkish Proverb is..!!!
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Postby umit07 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:40 pm

Kikapu

To me as long as a person can be objective to some extent it does not matter who I talk with. I wasn't even alive between 64-74, so it's particularly hard for me understand some things. When it comes to my political views a am neither a guy who says "We are all brother we would have got along just fine if it weren't for the imperial powers" , nor am a guy who thinks that the current situation is sustainable saying "Long live the TRNC". In Cyprus people usually have to choose between two "opposite poles", you are either "in" or "out". I neither want to be inside or outside, just somewhere in the middle.
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Postby CopperLine » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:43 pm

Nikitas
You suggested that
'In order to start the federation on the basis of two states the RoC would have to be dissolved, which would rob it of the legal advantages of continuity as a nation.'

Actually I don't think that this would 'rob' RoC of its legal advantages. If the proposal is that a wholly new entity with single sovereignty and therefore single recognition is to be created in the form of a federal republic then neither RoC nor TRNC/'TRNC' is being robbed of anything. The successor federal state would in any case be still bound by the legal undertakings contracted by its constituent predecessors. The difficulty would not be in 'being robbed of legal advantages', instead the difficulty would be in sorting out and clearing out those legal arrangements undertaken by the predecessor entities. For example, TRNC may have acted in one way over rights to explore/exploit the seabed whilst RoC had taken another way.

Certainly I do not think that the successor state would lose anything, and indeed would have a lot to gain. What I have just said assumes, of course, that the arguments for a federal state form are persuasive and have been accepted.

Personally I think a non-communal federal state form is far preferable to a bi-communal unitary or a bi-communal federal state. Any settlement which is based on community rights and not on democratic rights is, I believe, a recipe for repeated disaster. A non-communal federal state would allow GCs to live in the north, TCs to live in the south where 'heritage', 'language', 'nationality', or 'community' are irrelevant to the right of all Cypriots (and non-Cypriots) to enjoy a democratic peace.
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Postby DT. » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:04 pm

CopperLine wrote:Nikitas
You suggested that
'In order to start the federation on the basis of two states the RoC would have to be dissolved, which would rob it of the legal advantages of continuity as a nation.'

Actually I don't think that this would 'rob' RoC of its legal advantages. If the proposal is that a wholly new entity with single sovereignty and therefore single recognition is to be created in the form of a federal republic then neither RoC nor TRNC/'TRNC' is being robbed of anything. The successor federal state would in any case be still bound by the legal undertakings contracted by its constituent predecessors. The difficulty would not be in 'being robbed of legal advantages', instead the difficulty would be in sorting out and clearing out those legal arrangements undertaken by the predecessor entities. For example, TRNC may have acted in one way over rights to explore/exploit the seabed whilst RoC had taken another way.

Certainly I do not think that the successor state would lose anything, and indeed would have a lot to gain. What I have just said assumes, of course, that the arguments for a federal state form are persuasive and have been accepted.

Personally I think a non-communal federal state form is far preferable to a bi-communal unitary or a bi-communal federal state. Any settlement which is based on community rights and not on democratic rights is, I believe, a recipe for repeated disaster. A non-communal federal state would allow GCs to live in the north, TCs to live in the south where 'heritage', 'language', 'nationality', or 'community' are irrelevant to the right of all Cypriots (and non-Cypriots) to enjoy a democratic peace.


copperline, if the second before the new federation the ROC is disbanded then its a vulnerable position for the GC's to be in. One huge reason for the NO vote on the annan was that the creation of 2 statelets in conjunction with the enforced treaty of gaurantee would mean that any potential repeat of the past with a turkish intervention or request or unilateral declarations of partition by the TC's would have us in the same position as today...the only difference would be that we would be 2 statelets arguingrather than a recognised EU member with a pseudo state.
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Postby CopperLine » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:16 pm

DT

The concern or fear of the circumstances of 'disbanding' the RoC are appreciated but, I think, not necessarily reflective of what actually happens in these circumstances of succession. At least we can say that from other recent examples. For example, with the end of the Soviet Union and the creation of the new sovereign republics there was not, let's say. and interval in which there was a vacuum of power or the absence of law. In day-to-day life most people would not know the difference to begin with. Assuming - and I agree it is a big assumption - that the parties had agreed to this kind of non-communal federal solution then the early days would I expect be much like the old days, followed gradually by experiences comparable to adopting the Euro - there is some confusion, there are some strange rumours, there are new habits to become accustomed to, but in a few months it becomes second nature and all rather unremarkable.

I wouldn't at all say that there is no risk in the moments leading up to a political-legal succession but I do think that the principal problems are (a) how do you get to that settlement proposal in the first place and (2) how do you harmonise, where necessary, legal liabilities and contracts thereafter. The moment of transition/succession is, in my view, less of a problem.

Incidentally, and very importantly, should there be a non-communal federal solution, the ECHR demands for a property commission to resolve outstanding property claims would still apply. In other words the successor entity would still have to ensure an effective local remedy to indvidual human rights complaints.
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