Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Can we conclude then, despite some trying to find excuses or reasons as to why, that nations whose flags have
Crescent & Stars as well as most other Muslim & Islamic states seem to have these things in common with each other, which are;

"anti True Democracy, anti Freedom of Speech, anti Free Press, anti Human Rights, Corrupt, Undeveloped and Poor, and mostly ruled by strong Military influence".

No only you......Take a look at the list at the bottom of this Wiki page.....and see how many Crecents you see...... I know that I have slated Wiki but you can spend some time researching them and educating yourself.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

You just gave us a list of countries who were or are in Dictatorship. What is that have to do with what we are talking about. Just because Dictatorship has ended in most of those countries, does not mean they are thriving True Democracies and are not in violation with my above list. Turkey is a prime example, where their present constitution was written during the military rule back in 1983. In any case, thank you for making my point for me with the site you have provided, that most nations were Muslim or Islamic. Flags with Crescent and Star only represent about 5% of the world's countries and just because some are not under
Direct Dictatorship, does not make them thriving True Democracies either, but why don't you do us a favour, and tell us which country either with Crescent & Star in their flags, or a Muslim & Islamic states who does not violate the list I gave above, but are in uniform with countries in the west.. Surely there must be one or two that you can point out to us Zan.

I'll be waiting.!

You yanks really need to get out more!!! How would you describe the good old US of A Kikapo???



Mostly ruled by military influence.



Anti freedom of speech


Corrupt

[Kikapu]

Can we conclude then, despite some trying to find excuses or reasons as to why, that nations whose flags have
Crescent & Stars as well as most other Muslim & Islamic states seem to have these things in common with each other, which are;

"anti True Democracy, anti Freedom of Speech, anti Free Press, anti Human Rights, Corrupt, Undeveloped and Poor, and mostly ruled by strong Military influence".

No only you......Take a look at the list at the bottom of this Wiki page.....and see how many Crecents you see...... I know that I have slated Wiki but you can spend some time researching them and educating yourself.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

You just gave us a list of countries who were or are in Dictatorship. What is that have to do with what we are talking about. Just because Dictatorship has ended in most of those countries, does not mean they are thriving True Democracies and are not in violation with my above list. Turkey is a prime example, where their present constitution was written during the military rule back in 1983. In any case, thank you for making my point for me with the site you have provided, that most nations were Muslim or Islamic. Flags with Crescent and Star only represent about 5% of the world's countries and just because some are not under
Direct Dictatorship, does not make them thriving True Democracies either, but why don't you do us a favour, and tell us which country either with Crescent & Star in their flags, or a Muslim & Islamic states who does not violate the list I gave above, but are in uniform with countries in the west.. Surely there must be one or two that you can point out to us Zan.

I'll be waiting.!

You yanks really need to get out more!!! How would you describe the good old US of A Kikapo???

Corrupt

So you are condemning what happens in war, as the Americans mistreated prisoners in Iraq, and I commend you for it. I'm one of the biggest oppositions to Americans foreign policies and particularly Bush's wars and abuse of Power by the military abroad and by Bush at home. Some are convicted of their crimes and some are not. I hope you feel the same way regarding killings, missing persons and Rapes committed by the Invading Turkish Troops in 1974. Are you now ready to condemn those who did such acts in '74 also. So, does that mean it is the policy of the nations to commit such crimes because some members of their arm forces did, or is it done by those who think they can get away with it.??

Fox News is a Right Wing organization that does not like the truth if it goes against their interest, and in fact, they like to bend the truth. It's a bit like Halil and the BAYRAK he works for really. Will you now make some complaints to Halil and Bayrak or are you going to swallow it, just because it suits you on what half truths they report.

I had no idea what you wanted to say about the other video with the riots. To be honest, after the first minute of watching it, I gave up.

As I said Zan, Democracy is not perfect, but it is far better option than the alternative. Your thirst for Undemocratic, Racist , Human Rights violation, anti Freedom of Speech and so on is so great, that you are able to point out the errors in Democracies, but do not condemn one little bit when the above rights are violated, because accepting Democracy would mean accepting Cyprus to become one, which you do not want. You really do not belong living in the West at all, because you cherish the institutionalised Human Rights violations over some errors in True Democracies. At least errors in Democracies are continually improved, but institutionalised crimes against Humanity are let to become part of their society. It's a bit like the old joke Zan when a woman says to man

"you are stinking drunk" and the man say to her "and your are ugly, but atleast I will be sober again in the morning".!

Yes Zan, as we become "sober" again by continually fixing errors made in a Democracy, you will be left being "ugly" with your support for institutionalised crimes against Humanity.

[zan]

Can we conclude then, despite some trying to find excuses or reasons as to why, that nations whose flags have
Crescent & Stars as well as most other Muslim & Islamic states seem to have these things in common with each other, which are;

"anti True Democracy, anti Freedom of Speech, anti Free Press, anti Human Rights, Corrupt, Undeveloped and Poor, and mostly ruled by strong Military influence".

No only you......Take a look at the list at the bottom of this Wiki page.....and see how many Crecents you see...... I know that I have slated Wiki but you can spend some time researching them and educating yourself.........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_dictatorship

You just gave us a list of countries who were or are in Dictatorship. What is that have to do with what we are talking about. Just because Dictatorship has ended in most of those countries, does not mean they are thriving True Democracies and are not in violation with my above list. Turkey is a prime example, where their present constitution was written during the military rule back in 1983. In any case, thank you for making my point for me with the site you have provided, that most nations were Muslim or Islamic. Flags with Crescent and Star only represent about 5% of the world's countries and just because some are not under
Direct Dictatorship, does not make them thriving True Democracies either, but why don't you do us a favour, and tell us which country either with Crescent & Star in their flags, or a Muslim & Islamic states who does not violate the list I gave above, but are in uniform with countries in the west.. Surely there must be one or two that you can point out to us Zan.

I'll be waiting.!

You yanks really need to get out more!!! How would you describe the good old US of A Kikapo???

Corrupt

So you are condemning what happens in war, as the Americans mistreated prisoners in Iraq, and I commend you for it. I'm one of the biggest oppositions to Americans foreign policies and particularly Bush's wars and abuse of Power by the military abroad and by Bush at home. Some are convicted of their crimes and some are not. I hope you feel the same way regarding killings, missing persons and Rapes committed by the Invading Turkish Troops in 1974. Are you now ready to condemn those who did such acts in '74 also. So, does that mean it is the policy of the nations to commit such crimes because some members of their arm forces did, or is it done by those who think they can get away with it.??

Fox News is a Right Wing organization that does not like the truth if it goes against their interest, and in fact, they like to bend the truth. It's a bit like Halil and the BAYRAK he works for really. Will you now make some complaints to Halil and Bayrak or are you going to swallow it, just because it suits you on what half truths they report.

I had no idea what you wanted to say about the other video with the riots. To be honest, after the first minute of watching it, I gave up.

As I said Zan, Democracy is not perfect, but it is far better option than the alternative. Your thirst for Undemocratic, Racist , Human Rights violation, anti Freedom of Speech and so on is so great, that you are able to point out the errors in Democracies, but do not condemn one little bit when the above rights are violated, because accepting Democracy would mean accepting Cyprus to become one, which you do not want. You really do not belong living in the West at all, because you cherish the institutionalised Human Rights violations over some errors in True Democracies. At least errors in Democracies are continually improved, but institutionalised crimes against Humanity are let to become part of their society. It's a bit like the old joke Zan when a woman says to man

"you are stinking drunk" and the man say to her "and your are ugly, but atleast I will be sober again in the morning".!

Yes Zan, as we become "sober" again by continually fixing errors made in a Democracy, you will be left being "ugly" with your support for institutionalised crimes against Humanity.

Man you had to think long and hard about your comments...I thought you had done a runner but you came back and that is to commended....As weak as your reply is.

I have never condoned any mistreatment or undemocratic event in my life. You on the other hand are now trying to justify why these organisations and illegal activities occur under your so called "True Democracy" banner and that you are trying to correct them....What the hell do you think Turkey is trying to do...Perhaps now you realise it cannot happen over night and if the mighty US of A cannot do it...though I know they are sponsoring it......then Turkey will have greater difficulty but WILL get there.

You are willing to state that you will try to repair what is wrong in democracy in the Sa but are not willing to fight for the same as a TC for your people but abandon them and shout insults from a distance. I would say that is hypocritical and slovenly on your part. You have even given us the "RoC" as the pinnacle of democracy when nothing could be further from the truth. A place where hypocrisy and corruption is rife and a place where TC leadership is not wanted.

For what ever reason that only you know...You have turned into a racist and what is worse you have turned against your own. You have no respect for your ancestry and think you have furthered yourself when you have just gone backwards.


That video you did not understand is the press not being allowed to report what they see. Oppression at its best. THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING.

[Kikapu]

Man you had to think long and hard about your comments...I thought you had done a runner but you came back and that is to commended....As weak as your reply is.

I did not realise you had the "egg timer" on for the time it took to answer you.!

There is life after Cyprus Forum to some of us Zan.!

I'll never do a "runner" on you Zan.!

I have never condoned any mistreatment or undemocratic event in my life. You on the other hand are now trying to justify why these organisations and illegal activities occur under your so called "True Democracy" banner and that you are trying to correct them....What the hell do you think Turkey is trying to do...Perhaps now you realise it cannot happen over night and if the mighty US of A cannot do it...though I know they are sponsoring it......then Turkey will have greater difficulty but WILL get there.

And that's what I've done, to state that True Democracy is not perfect, but it is much better than the alternative, and the alternative are where Human Rights are continually violated as an institutionalised policy of the said countries. The west has moved away from institutionalise Human Right violations in the form of True Democracies. Is it yet perfect, NO, but are they going in the right direction to improve their Democratic Society, and the answer is YES. That is the difference. In any case, I've just stated the fact, that Flags that carry the Star and Crescent as well as almost all Muslim and Islamic countries, are not True Democracies, and to most, they only have "Democracy" in name and nothing else. So where is my contradiction in the above statement. I've asked you to give us some nations that fall under the above category and you were not able to. Don't shoot the messenger Zan.

You are willing to state that you will try to repair what is wrong in democracy in the Sa but are not willing to fight for the same as a TC for your people but abandon them and shout insults from a distance. I would say that is hypocritical and slovenly on your part. You have even given us the "RoC" as the pinnacle of democracy when nothing could be further from the truth. A place where hypocrisy and corruption is rife and a place where TC leadership is not wanted.

I have not abandoned anyone one Zan. I'm pushing to change our views to be part of the West as far as Democracy and Human Rights goes without giving up our heritage. You and some others on the other hand want to make gains at the loss of others from the same island by means of Undemocratic and Human Right violation, and call it a settlement, to be able to live in peace. I'm sorry my friend, but the two does not go together. One cannot have peace when others Democratic and Human Rights are violated, and trust me, it has been tried many times before, like in South Africa, Rhodesia, the USA with the slavery and other immigrants, India under the British and on and on. Therefore, it is not a new concept to try and form societies based on crimes committed on the backs of others. Cyprus is in a very unique position to strive to become a True Democracy now, over past injustices done to each other between the GC's and TC's. We are part of a EU club that many countries dream of becoming part of (except for Switzerland of course) and there are no need to continue with business as usual by living under conditions that were institutionalised in the last century and beyond. So Zan, I want the best for my people, both the TC's and GC's without one having to dominate the other. But one thing I will not accept, is violations on others Democratic & Human Rights, which you are happy to see it happen, as long as you can gain from it.

For what ever reason that only you know...You have turned into a racist and what is worse you have turned against your own. You have no respect for your ancestry and think you have furthered yourself when you have just gone backwards.

I hope the above comments explained your unfounded remarks here Zan.

If telling the truth is being Racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

If trying to be on the right side of history in being part of a True Democratic society, then I'm guilty as charged.

If wanting all Cypriots to be equal citizens without violating one's Human Rights because of Military Might, then I'm guilty as charged.

That video you did not understand is the press not being allowed to report what they see. Oppression at its best. THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING.

These are the things that are common in countries that does not have True Democracies, but only in name, so thank you for the example you have provided.

[zan]

You are still full of it and I have no time to answer you right now...Your one sided "Gaining at the expense of others" is half the story and you know it.

[Kikapu]

Here you go Zan. This is what happens where True Democracy is not practiced, where people have very little rights when it comes to Freedom of Speech. Can you believe it, that not only the 4 accused of Graffiti are still held in jail after 3 days, but also they had their homes raided by the authorities without a search warrant I'm sure, and were sent to a Military Court first as if these were the same cases as in Guantanamo Bay with enemy combatants for God Sake, and you still want to argue with me about what Democracy means. I tell you what it doesn't mean, is what this case has shown us, and you accuse me of abandoning my people, the TC's, just because I do not accept the authoritarian style of government in treatment of them as if it were the "Animal Farm".!

Then again you may be right Zan. Lets have a Democracy in name only and put these 4 Graffiti tagging bastards up against the wall and execute them to deter other TC's from expressing their views.!

What do you say Zan.??

Yesterda's Afrika newspaper carried an interesting piece about this case (my translation):

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... &artid=988

The other evening four of our youths were detained by the police. For writing “Occupying Turkish army sod off” on walls. Aziz Şah... Çetin Edip... Özce Nizam... Kan Yektaoğlu. They were taken to court and an order to hold them in custody for three days was obtained. They are still in the cells at Nicosia police station. They will appear once more before the court tomorrow. The police sent them to the Military Court to be sentenced, but the military prosecutor, stating that there was insufficient evidence to try them at this court, passed the case to the civil court. Police deputy inspector Oral Ordu, giving sworn evidence to the court, said that the youths had written comments “targeting the Security Forces Command” on a number of buildings in Nicosia in August-September. However, the graffiti allegedly written on the walls has nothing whatsoever to do with the SFC. That is, they do not target the SFC. The SFC is the Turkish Cypriots’ army. Not Turkey’s. The army defined as the “occupying army” is the Turkish Republic’s 40 thousand strong army on the island. The Peace Forces! Where did the police inspector get the idea that the SFC was targeted?
*
The detained youths’ homes were also raided by the police. Moreover, without informing their families. When the families were not at home. They went through everything. They confiscated the computers in these homes. These days we have also witnessed the homes of two trade union leaders being raided and searched … Erol Şeherlioğlu... and Tevfik Yoldaş. Where is all of this taking us?
*
It came as a surprise for the youths to be held in custody for three days. There is but one offence with which they may be charged in connection with this event … dirtying the environment! If it goes beyond this, the matter will assume political dimensions. Then the case will take on different proportions. The Turkish army on the island is described in the international arena as an “occupying army”. If it is not an offence under international law to accuse this army of being an occupier, it cannot be considered an offence here.
*
It is clear that those detaining these youths are determined to establish if any organization is behind this act. They are investigating this. They are incapable of working out that one day in this country everyone’s patience will be exhausted and that without the need for any organization acts of this kind will be performed. They have thrown the youths into the cells for three days in vain. Since when have those guilty of dirtying the environment received such treatment in our country? Release the youths. When there are so many criminals to detain in our country, is it not disgraceful to detain youths for writing graffiti on walls?

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

[zan]

Here you go Zan. This is what happens where True Democracy is not practiced, where people have very little rights when it comes to Freedom of Speech. Can you believe it, that not only the 4 accused of Graffiti are still held in jail after 3 days, but also they had their homes raided by the authorities without a search warrant I'm sure, and were sent to a Military Court first as if these were the same cases as in Guantanamo Bay with enemy combatants for God Sake, and you still want to argue with me about what Democracy means. I tell you what it doesn't mean, is what this case has shown us, and you accuse me of abandoning my people, the TC's, just because I do not accept the authoritarian style of government in treatment of them as if it were the "Animal Farm".!

Then again you may be right Zan. Lets have a Democracy in name only and put these 4 Graffiti tagging bastards up against the wall and execute them to deter other TC's from expressing their views.!

What do you say Zan.??

Yesterda's Afrika newspaper carried an interesting piece about this case (my translation):

http://www.afrikagazetesi.net/modules.p ... &artid=988

The other evening four of our youths were detained by the police. For writing “Occupying Turkish army sod off” on walls. Aziz Şah... Çetin Edip... Özce Nizam... Kan Yektaoğlu. They were taken to court and an order to hold them in custody for three days was obtained. They are still in the cells at Nicosia police station. They will appear once more before the court tomorrow. The police sent them to the Military Court to be sentenced, but the military prosecutor, stating that there was insufficient evidence to try them at this court, passed the case to the civil court. Police deputy inspector Oral Ordu, giving sworn evidence to the court, said that the youths had written comments “targeting the Security Forces Command” on a number of buildings in Nicosia in August-September. However, the graffiti allegedly written on the walls has nothing whatsoever to do with the SFC. That is, they do not target the SFC. The SFC is the Turkish Cypriots’ army. Not Turkey’s. The army defined as the “occupying army” is the Turkish Republic’s 40 thousand strong army on the island. The Peace Forces! Where did the police inspector get the idea that the SFC was targeted?
*
The detained youths’ homes were also raided by the police. Moreover, without informing their families. When the families were not at home. They went through everything. They confiscated the computers in these homes. These days we have also witnessed the homes of two trade union leaders being raided and searched … Erol Şeherlioğlu... and Tevfik Yoldaş. Where is all of this taking us?
*
It came as a surprise for the youths to be held in custody for three days. There is but one offence with which they may be charged in connection with this event … dirtying the environment! If it goes beyond this, the matter will assume political dimensions. Then the case will take on different proportions. The Turkish army on the island is described in the international arena as an “occupying army”. If it is not an offence under international law to accuse this army of being an occupier, it cannot be considered an offence here.
*
It is clear that those detaining these youths are determined to establish if any organization is behind this act. They are investigating this. They are incapable of working out that one day in this country everyone’s patience will be exhausted and that without the need for any organization acts of this kind will be performed. They have thrown the youths into the cells for three days in vain. Since when have those guilty of dirtying the environment received such treatment in our country? Release the youths. When there are so many criminals to detain in our country, is it not disgraceful to detain youths for writing graffiti on walls?

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

Re Kikapu...I am trying hard not to be rude to you this time but you have to help me here and stop behaving like a cupid stunt and show some maturity.

The US of A is about as corrupt as a government can get. Do you honestly expect me to believe that they practice democracy to the end. The people they detained in Guantanamo were innocent. Not one of them have been tried and they kept them there for years. The government kick down doors in their tens to get what they want and you tell me that are not just using democracy in name.

The Greeks arrested british people because they were plane spotting and held them for days if not weeks and then made them return to face charges that did not have a chance of standing up in court............ because of politics.

I have seen what the british government are capable of at first hand. I can't be bothered to find out his name but there was a black muslim guy who was reported by the press when he stood up at a meeting and shouted his anger at the way the british government was treating muslims, like terrorists, and he lived in walthamstow. I wired the heating in his flat shortly after the incident and we were given strict instructions to treat this guy like a king and do what ever he wanted and that was after he jumped the queue. The were shit scared about what he was going to say now that he was in the public eye. They quickly repaired anything that he said was broken in his flat. Meanwhile the same day, six or seven other properties were raided and the people taken away in handcuffs and never charged.

My eldest brother is the black sheep of our family and a right rogue and criminal. He was arrested one friday night by the customs police because the offices were closed over the weekend and it was a bank holiday monday so they had three days in which to beat the shit out of him and get him to confess and grass other people up. He then spent two years in prison and got another bad beating when he got out because the police told the guys he had grassed up who he was. He still can't stand up for too long to this day. I have only seen him once or twice in maybe ten years because I have no time for him or his crimes or his drug addiction.


What you are doing is seeing one half of the story and coming out with crap about true democracy. True democracy is the rule of the land. If you do not want a street flogging do not commit the crime. If you do not want to spend three years in prison do not commit the crime. The law of the land in which you are staying is the law. Do not break it. Ad for corruption...Read above. Their are bombs going off in the "RoC" on a daily basis and depending on who you know you are not arrested. So please grow up and try to give the world a rest. You sound like just another propagandist Greek or a stupid yank. Insular and amazingly gullible. Someone who takes what Bush says to heart but dose not see what goes on in his own country. I work with people like you. Brits who have not done a good days work in their life. Relics of the 60,s and 70,s who are so xenophobic that they cannot bare the thought of Polish people coming here and doing a better job than them, faster and cheaper because it means they will have to work for a living.

If you want me to find more corruption in the western world then I will but I feel like I am talking to a child or a Greek propagandist.

[miltiades]

Zan , you have lost all sense of proportion here mate. Kikapu is referring to the 4 graffiti writers still held after 4 days and to the fact that most if not all of Islamic nations do not have true democracy.
He also stated " So Zan, I want the best for my people, both the TC's and GC's without one having to dominate the other. But one thing I will not accept, is violations on others Democratic & Human Rights, which you are happy to see it happen, as long as you can gain from it. ""
The above in itself makes Kikapu a giant of a Cypriot man compared to your statement earlier "TURKEY is my motherland "
He cares for Cyprus and refers to its people as "my people " , his motherland is CYPRUS .
Kikapu is a genuine Cypriot who wants to see justice for all Cypriots , he is not in the minority but he is , just as I'm , in the majority.

[zan]

Zan , you have lost all sense of proportion here mate. Kikapu is referring to the 4 graffiti writers still held after 4 days and to the fact that most if not all of Islamic nations do not have true democracy.
He also stated " So Zan, I want the best for my people, both the TC's and GC's without one having to dominate the other. But one thing I will not accept, is violations on others Democratic & Human Rights, which you are happy to see it happen, as long as you can gain from it. ""
The above in itself makes Kikapu a giant of a Cypriot man compared to your statement earlier "TURKEY is my motherland "
He cares for Cyprus and refers to its people as "my people " , his motherland is CYPRUS .
Kikapu is a genuine Cypriot who wants to see justice for all Cypriots , he is not in the minority but he is , just as I'm , in the majority.

If we start to take out all the christian states that are suffering from the same fate as in south America and Africa and some baltic states you will probably tell me it is because they are not true white people so they cannot have true democracy either I know you are a true white supremacist but he claims to be of Turkish decent so even he does not fit into your model. He is just a wanna be. Not that I believe any of this rubbish.

There are problems with these boys and they should either be charged or let go but who are they. They may be dissidents for all you know but the Greek papers and the Greek minded Africa paper is making a meal out of this. This is not the first time a miscarriage of justice has happened and it does not only happen in Turkey or the TRNC. Why have these boys waited till this sensitive time to do this while talks are going on or who has put them up to it. Is no one concerned about that. The computers were seized because they might give us some clue and are relevant to the security of the country. You don't know and neither do I but still you scoff. There is a lot wrong in the TRNC but there is also a lot right. Just like in the "RoC".

Justice for all Cypriots is the return of my rights under the only constitution that has ever existed in CYprus. YOU pussy foot about not telling us about what you want and give us rubbish about true Cypriots when all you are doing is promoting the "RoC". The "RoC" is not part of me or my people. There are two distinct people on the island and you expect one to give up everything to the other. You ignore anything on the island that is not Greek and accept the Greek flag and the Greek national anthem and the Greek history books and the Greek tourist boards interpretation of Cyprus history where we get the slightest mention and you expect me to accept it. No way in a million years. My president has spoken and I agree with everything he says.

[Kikapu]

@Miltiades
Thanks Miltiades for seeing my post the way it was written and not misconstrued to mean something else as often done by some.

@Zan
Zan, I'll get back to your post soon. But briefly, I agree with you on the overwhelming majority held at Guantanamo Bay are innocent and it is an absolute crime what has happened there.. Loopholes were used and created to bypass the Constitution by using Guantanamo Bay to keep these people there, since they were not able to do so on the 50 states of the Union. It was Bush's way to bring them there from afar, just to show the American people that he was catching all the bad guys who did bad things to us on 9/11, seven years ago TODAY. Show me where I've said that True Democracies are perfect. On the other hand, it is a hell of a lot better than the alternative, who only claim to be a Democracy in name only, where the citizens of their own country are denied all the basic principles of Democracy, let alone how the foreigners are treated in time of war, like those in Guantanamo bay.