Cyprus-Forum.com

[boulio]

kikapu

this might help you if you ever do a map there were many towns with substantial g/c populations(pre 1974)that were left out of the annan plan that with a few adjustements increase people going back

http://kypros.org/Occupied_Villages/amm1-gen.html

[Viewpoint]

I am a new member and I have read all the debate ...Kikapu thank you for your time bringing all those ideas together but you do not seem to agree anything else other than whats in your mind..Viewpoint raised just one concern over your plan and you debated 15 pages for that...

Come on!! sometimes people may just disagree with you.

1.For birkibrislis proposal 8 is quite high number but 7 would be more sensible...

2.About number of greek cypriots that would move to TC state Its a dilemma for me..I want to beileve that people will make their own decision about it. I am still concerned that 15000 GC can be found that are too religious and what If church suggests to move into the TC state( sorry guys but I dont trust the church but I do trust GC) thats the dilemma I have

3. About your tone(Kikapu)..It was all ok till the point you compared Gaza strip and TC state...
( that frustruated me) I suppose you know that 1.5million Palestenians were living on land that was 3 times as large as Cyprus...

4.You are always talking about democracy and human rights but you seem to look from GC"s point of view

5.GCs have right to return to their land you say and even If 10-12% land will be returned to GC state .You mention tha limitation of other GC to move to TC state is against human rights. Well it can be but for me a lonleaving peacefull country is more important than just blindly asking for human rights...

Even tough I disagree with some of your points ..Your plan is agreeable on general terms

Well spotted, kikapu always ends up defending the GCs as his views are nearer theirs than ours and believes its gospel never for one minute thinking that there are alternative solutions, its either his way or noway.

[Kikapu]

Nice to see some "fresh blood" on this thread by having Ierini-Baris , boulio and Tony-4497. I will answer those with open posts to me, including VP's, ASAP.!

[Kikapu]

I am a new member and I have read all the debate ...Kikapu thank you for your time bringing all those ideas together but you do not seem to agree anything else other than whats in your mind..Viewpoint raised just one concern over your plan and you debated 15 pages for that...

Come on!! sometimes people may just disagree with you.

1.For birkibrislis proposal 8 is quite high number but 7 would be more sensible...

2.About number of greek cypriots that would move to TC state Its a dilemma for me..I want to beileve that people will make their own decision about it. I am still concerned that 15000 GC can be found that are too religious and what If church suggests to move into the TC state( sorry guys but I dont trust the church but I do trust GC) thats the dilemma I have

3. About your tone(Kikapu)..It was all ok till the point you compared Gaza strip and TC state...
( that frustruated me) I suppose you know that 1.5million Palestenians were living on land that was 3 times as large as Cyprus...

4.You are always talking about democracy and human rights but you seem to look from GC"s point of view

5.GCs have right to return to their land you say and even If 10-12% land will be returned to GC state .You mention tha limitation of other GC to move to TC state is against human rights. Well it can be but for me a lonleaving peacefull country is more important than just blindly asking for human rights...

Even tough I disagree with some of your points ..Your plan is agreeable on general terms

Well spotted, kikapu always ends up defending the GCs as his views are nearer theirs than ours and believes its gospel never for one minute thinking that there are alternative solutions, its either his way or noway.

No, VP, "Ierini-Baris" did not spot anything that favours the GC's. He is just not looking at the BIG picture. For far too long, the TC's have been brainwashed to think, that anything that is a Democratic plan for Cyprus, it is automatically going to benefit the GC's. Let me also remind you, that the GC's have all the legalities on their sides from the UN, the EU and the International Courts. It may be all this, that gives the TC's the shivers, but these are all the legalities all the countries in the EU share, so if the TC's want to be part of the EU also, they too will need to conform to these legalities and not try and look for loopholes in everything to circumvent these legalities. It is time for the TC's to start fresh with these same legalities shared by the EU members, and not try finding ways to continue with the corrupted system you all live under in the "trnc" right now.!

Let me remind you what you said about my plan when you thought it was something close to the Annan Plan, just because "skipper" said so, and before you realised that 50% of the north will need to be given back for this plan to work. By you now trying to make false accusations that this plan favours the GC's more than the TC's, is a total rubbish, and if you don't believe me, show me another GC other than our friend DT who bothered to take part in this thread and support such a plan. You don't like this plan, because it throws a "monkey wrench" in your Partition plan since this plan gives you everything you have asked for. All you have to do, is return land that does not belong to you anyway. Let me remind you and others in what you wrote on page 1 in this thread.

I really believe Kikapu will have bigger problems selling this to the GCsi are there any that would like to comment seems to be a lck of them when anything is out forward by a TC. Would GCs agree to such a structure which is nearer to the AP.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

No, VP, "Ierini-Baris" did not spot anything that favours the GC's. He is just not looking at the BIG picture. For far too long, the TC's have been brainwashed to think, that anything that is a Democratic plan for Cyprus, it is automatically going to benefit the GC's. Let me also remind you, that the GC's have all the legalities on their sides from the UN, the EU and the International Courts. It may be all this, that gives the TC's the shivers, but these are all the legalities all the countries in the EU share, so if the TC's want to be part of the EU also, they too will need to conform to these legalities and not try and look for loopholes in everything to circumvent these legalities. It is time for the TC's to start fresh with these same legalities shared by the EU members, and not try finding ways to continue with the corrupted system you all live under in the "trnc" right now.!

Then the GCs should be ok with the legalities on their side, they wont need us to solve the Cyprus problem, then why havent they done so already? The TCs will conform if it suits them, they will not enter into any agreement where they are left to the mercy of a hostile and revenge seeking GC majority. Without safeguards to guarantee our effective say and security in a BBF with political equality of the 2 states we will go nowhere becuase we to have a right to say NO just like the other side.

Let me remind you what you said about my plan when you thought it was something close to the Annan Plan, just because "skipper" said so, and before you realised that 50% of the north will need to be given back for this plan to work. By you now trying to make false accusations that this plan favours the GC's more than the TC's, is a total rubbish, and if you don't believe me, show me another GC other than our friend DT who bothered to take part in this thread and support such a plan. You don't like this plan, because it throws a "monkey wrench" in your Partition plan since this plan gives you everything you have asked for. All you have to do, is return land that does not belong to you anyway. Let me remind you and others in what you wrote on page 1 in this thread.

I reviwed your plan hoping that it would address the TCs concerns becuase you r were asked to prepare it with the TCs viewpoint not your own but you choose to hide the dangers and throw us at the mercy of GCs who could if they desired distort and manipulate it to get what they control of the whole island reducing us down to just another minority.

The Gcs have not commented becuase they do nto support it I called upon Piratis to comment and all he did was avoid it, so you still ahve to get the approval of the GCs who will not want a 50 50 split in the upper house.

[Kikapu]

Then the GCs should be ok with the legalities on their side, they wont need us to solve the Cyprus problem, then why havent they done so already?

It is true, that the GC's don't need the TC's to solve the Cyprus problem. The TC's have never been the actual players to solve the Cyprus problem, because it has always been Turkey who holds the cards and not the TC's. Don't make it sound like the TC's are holding any negotiating cards, because they do not. The only thing that they are holding, is the stolen GC land. Once Turkey agrees to negotiate what's best for her (the EU), then you got nothing left.!

The TCs will conform if it suits them, they will not enter into any agreement where they are left to the mercy of a hostile and revenge seeking GC majority.

The choices are limited for the TC's. Either they will go with the EU policies, or they stay out. You will do what ever Turkey tells you to do, even if it's not what you want to do. Turkey did not go through all the trouble and expense just for the TC's to kill her EU ambitions. The sooner you accept this fact, the sooner you can start accepting a unified Cyprus and not your Partitionist dreams.!

Without safeguards to guarantee our effective say and security in a BBF with political equality of the 2 states we will go nowhere becuase we to have a right to say NO just like the other side.

I already gave you a plan that resolves all your above concerns, but you only spit at it, because it does not allow for you to become part of the EU, and then say goodbye to Unified Cyprus to become independent. Actually, there will be a mechanism in place to say goodbye to Unified Cyprus, as the case is in a Democratic society. All you have to, is to get the GC's and the TC's to agree on such a move by 75% from both Federated states, just like amending the constitution. The people are the once who hold the power in a Democracy, but I do not expect that you will get that vote, so lets not even talk about it.!

I reviwed your plan hoping that it would address the TCs concerns becuase you r were asked to prepare it with the TCs viewpoint not your own but you choose to hide the dangers and throw us at the mercy of GCs who could if they desired distort and manipulate it to get what they control of the whole island reducing us down to just another minority.

There are no hidden dangers in the plan. Everything is wide open. Your problem is, you think you own the territory in the north and do not want to hand it over parts of it to their rightful owners. Anything else, is pure excuses. You have told us million times, that the GC's will not want to live with the TC's in a TC state, and judging from the attitudes displayed in the Eurovision songs thread by the NeoPartitionist, I believe the GC's will not want to come and live with you, and why should they. They will take their land and live where they are wanted, which leaves you safe with all the state and Federal Upper House power in the hands of the TC's only, but only in their 18%-20% state.!

The Gcs have not commented becuase they do nto support it I called upon Piratis to comment and all he did was avoid it, so you still ahve to get the approval of the GCs who will not want a 50 50 split in the upper house.

Now you are contradicting yourself. First you said this quote below on another post earlier, and now, you are saying the above. Can you just take a position and stay with it please and don't try and twist and turn from one post to the next. Don't forget, that I have a very good memory in what you have written in the past.!

kikapu always ends up defending the GCs as his views are nearer theirs than ours

So what you are saying is, that the plan I have given you is very beneficial to the TC's which some GC's may not like, which gives you everything that you have asked for. But this plan will not work, unless you also do your part and return 50% of the north back to the GC's. This is a "checks and balances", because if the Upper House seats were guaranteed by undemocratic means as you want, there would be no incentive for you to return any GC land back. This is the compromise that you need to make.!

[Kikapu]

I am a new member and I have read all the debate ...Kikapu thank you for your time bringing all those ideas together but you do not seem to agree anything else other than whats in your mind..Viewpoint raised just one concern over your plan and you debated 15 pages for that...

Come on!! sometimes people may just disagree with you.

Finally I am able to answer your post, Ierini-Baris and welcome to the forum by the way.

The issue that VP raised, is a deliberate attempt for him to reject this plan, because this plan exposes him "crying wolf" all the time about "safeguards", which this plan gives him everything he wants, everything except what he really wants, a partition, just like the plan Annan Plan gave him under the cover of unification..............unification for 5 minutes that is, before official partition would have started taking effect, so don't pay too much attention to VP in what he is opposing to in this plan. I accept people to disagree with me on issues that can be changed, but there is no compromises can be made on Democracy and on Human rights. The EU will see to that, so lets not waste time arguing over these disagreements.

1.For birkibrislis proposal 8 is quite high number but 7 would be more sensible...

I will explain more in my 5 year plan soon which will cover Bir's question, mostly electing the Upper House members. But to answer your question, if you want to get technical, it will take 7 votes to pass a bill. If the senate vote is 5v5, then the vice President will break the deadlock one way or the other, and if the President goes on to sign the bill, that would make it 7 votes in total, even though it was only 5v5 in the senate.

The passing bills structure is not really an issue, even to VP, because if you went from a simple majority vote in the senate to a minimum 7 votes to pass a bill, not only it is unnecessary and redundant, but also very difficult to pass anything where the votes may be very close. The government needs to work and cannot be allowed that bills are "hijacked" by certain senators, when the vice President and the President can use their positions to help a bill pass or fail. You give 7 votes for any bill to pass, then you have in effect taken away the vice President’s and President's veto powers away somewhat.

2.About number of greek cypriots that would move to TC state Its a dilemma for me..I want to beileve that people will make their own decision about it. I am still concerned that 15000 GC can be found that are too religious and what If church suggests to move into the TC state( sorry guys but I dont trust the church but I do trust GC) thats the dilemma I have

I think you meant to say 150,000 GC's and not 15,000.

Look, you are not going to be able to prevent any Cypriot from exercising their Democratic and Human Rights, now that we are in the EU. When most of the 200,000 refugee GC's are given their land back or have been compensated for, the remaining 18-20% land for the TC state, will remain in the hands of the TC's..............mostly, because there will still be some GC's who may have a property there and would wish to remain there amongst the TC's. This will be a very small numbers and will not effect the total control of the TC state's and the Upper House's senate seats to remain in the hands of the TC's.

If an Imam told you to leave your community, your job, your kids school, your friends and family in the north state and move to the south state to try and unbalance the political landscape down in the southern state, would you go, and if you did, just how many other TC's would go with you, if you do not have any desires or connections in the south state.? This talk about Greek Priests leading 150,000 GC's to the TC state in the north reminds me of a scene from a film "The Ten Commandments", where Moses lead the Israelites to the new promised land from Egypt. We need to keep our feet on the ground here and not get carried away with all the scare mongering created by the NeoPartitionist. There is no bogeyman to worry about, or any Priests that will want to create an exodus for 150,000 disenchanted GC from the south to the north. The Priests will not be calling on to the Governor of the GC south state with statements like "Let My People Go".!

3. About your tone(Kikapu)..It was all ok till the point you compared Gaza strip and TC state...
( that frustruated me) I suppose you know that 1.5million Palestenians were living on land that was 3 times as large as Cyprus...

If you read what was written earlier, then you would have known what the Gaza Strip comment was all about, so let me refresh your memory. VP stated, that the TC's would be "squashed" if they were to be put in 18-20% of the north TC state. On the same breath, he states, if 18% is offered, then he would rather ask for a complete partition, so all of a sudden, space was no longer a issue. At 18-20%, the TC state would be 5 times larger than Gaza strip with ONLY 10th of the population. If we compare 18-20% TC state to Malta, once again, the TC state would be 5 times larger in land size and about 2 times smaller in population to the Maltese, an yet the Maltese have an economy around 10Billion US Dollars, so VP is talking total crap about being "squashed". He just does not want to give back 50% of the north's coastline back, that's all. Once again, do not pay too much attention to VP's complaints or his wish lists.

4.You are always talking about democracy and human rights but you seem to look from GC"s point of view

NO, I do not look at GC's point of view. Democracy is Democracy and Human Rights is Human Rights. It is there for all to benefit from, and the once who will benefit the most, are the TC's under such a system, because right now, they are living under a puppet state in a corrupted system. I hope you do not also prescribed for Cyprus to have a "Muslim Democracy" based in all other Muslim countries, where it has very little to do with Democracy. Being in the EU, we don't have any choice but to have a True Democracy. There's no being "little Pregnant" in the EU. Either you are Pregnant or you are not. Either you accept democracy or you don't. If you don't, then leave Democracy for the TC's who want them in Cyprus and the rest can move to another country where Democracy is only practiced in name, and nothing else.

5.GCs have right to return to their land you say and even If 10-12% land will be returned to GC state .You mention tha limitation of other GC to move to TC state is against human rights. Well it can be but for me a lonleaving peacefull country is more important than just blindly asking for human rights...

I see.!

What you mean is, you want to enjoy your Human Rights with freedom of movement, but you want to deny others Human Rights on their Freedom of Movement. This is actually not even a subject worth discussing, because it is a done deal, that you will not be able to prevent any Cypriot from living where ever they want in a Federation Cyprus. The TC state will not be a separate country where you can perhaps restrict other EU members to live there. No, this is one Cyprus, one country, one citizenship with two Federal states. No different than California and Arizona. Any American can move to either one of those two states to live, work and vote. If you take away these rights afforded to citizens, you wont have PEACE that you love so much versus Human Rights violation, you will have a REVOLUTION. Therefore, the best policy will be to return 50% of the land that the "trnc" now occupies back to the GC's, then you will not have the population movement that you have concerns about.

Even tough I disagree with some of your points ..Your plan is agreeable on general terms

I welcome all constructive criticism. I welcome others to add or subtract items from this plan, if they think it will make it work better and more efficient, as long as it does not violate anyone's Democratic and Human Rights. VP wants to violate others rights, while he wants more rights. This will not be allowed, and that's the reason why he is not too happy with this plan. He wants to make this plan into another Annan plan, and that will not be allowed, either by me, the GC's but most importantly, by the EU. The options are very cut and clear. EU values on Democracy and Human Rights, or nothing. There is no middle grey area, because even just for the sake of argument that the two leaders agree on something that is along the lines what VP wants, the first thing that will happen, will be law suits filed in the EU courts on violations of their Democratic and Human Rights, and they will win, and then what are you going to do.? Think about that one and let me know what the answer is.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

It is true, that the GC's don't need the TC's to solve the Cyprus problem. The TC's have never been the actual players to solve the Cyprus problem, because it has always been Turkey who holds the cards and not the TC's. Don't make it sound like the TC's are holding any negotiating cards, because they do not. The only thing that they are holding, is the stolen GC land. Once Turkey agrees to negotiate what's best for her (the EU), then you got nothing left.!

The hurdle is still a hurdle, you have to get over it. For 35 years you have not been able to get close even with a fist full of "legalities".

The choices are limited for the TC's. Either they will go with the EU policies, or they stay out. You will do what ever Turkey tells you to do, even if it's not what you want to do. Turkey did not go through all the trouble and expense just for the TC's to kill her EU ambitions. The sooner you accept this fact, the sooner you can start accepting a unified Cyprus and not your Partitionist dreams.!

We trust Turkey and if it is necessary for us to stay out of the EU we will if it means we are free from GC domination and are not allowed the safeguards we ask for. Turkey has show where shes stands with the ports issue, she does not recognize the "RoC" without its TC element the sooner you understand that we to have our red lines the better it will be all who support the GC position.

I already gave you a plan that resolves all your above concerns, but you only spit at it, because it does not allow for you to become part of the EU, and then say goodbye to Unified Cyprus to become independent. Actually, there will be a mechanism in place to say goodbye to Unified Cyprus, as the case is in a Democratic society. All you have to, is to get the GC's and the TC's to agree on such a move by 75% from both Federated states, just like amending the constitution. The people are the once who hold the power in a Democracy, but I do not expect that you will get that vote, so lets not even talk about it.!

I dont spit at anything, I rejected your plan because it fails to provide a guaranteed safeguard to ensure TC effective contribution and right to say no, your offering is pushing TCs into a risky corner where we can be pushed to one side allowing GCs to take control of the whole island.

There are no hidden dangers in the plan. Everything is wide open. Your problem is, you think you own the territory in the north and do not want to hand it over parts of it to their rightful owners. Anything else, is pure excuses. You have told us million times, that the GC's will not want to live with the TC's in a TC state, and judging from the attitudes displayed in the Eurovision songs thread by the NeoPartitionist, I believe the GC's will not want to come and live with you, and why should they. They will take their land and live where they are wanted, which leaves you safe with all the state and Federal Upper House power in the hands of the TC's only, but only in their 18%-20% state.!

The traps are there for everyone to see, we have immediately lost any say in the lower house, you have also camoflaged the risks we would surely face in the upper by returning 50% of the TC state to the GCs making it much easier for them to slowly but surely move into the TC state buying in to swing the balance of power in their favour. TCs are not stupid they can see right through you as you are just repeating what GCs have always wanted land following to full power over the whole island. You are pushing your the people you claim to orignate from into a sess pit where they can be forced into second place every time just like the Eurovision song contest all under the flag of "democracy" GC style.

Now you are contradicting yourself. First you said this quote below on another post earlier, and now, you are saying the above. Can you just take a position and stay with it please and don't try and twist and turn from one post to the next. Don't forget, that I have a very good memory in what you have written in the past.!

I am not contracting myself at all you are the one twisting what I say to suit your own viewpoint and discredit me.
I have and will always stand firm on what I believe is right for TCs, I read yours and other GCs comments in the hope that I will find something that will challenge my viewpoint but find that all you do is reconfirm that I am right in theink the chasm is to wide and will not be bridged.

So what you are saying is, that the plan I have given you is very beneficial to the TC's which some GC's may not like, which gives you everything that you have asked for. But this plan will not work, unless you also do your part and return 50% of the north back to the GC's. This is a "checks and balances", because if the Upper House seats were guaranteed by undemocratic means as you want, there would be no incentive for you to return any GC land back. This is the compromise that you need to make.!

What I am saying is that on face value your plan appears to give us a right in the upper house which if taken on face value will not be acceptable to the majority of GCs, those that accept it have seen the opportunity of getting 18% of the north back right away and the balance in power over a priod of calculated manipulation of the population balance in the Tc state in their favor therefore full power over the whole island reducing us to living in a GC state state run by GCs.

[Viewpoint]

I am a new member and I have read all the debate ...Kikapu thank you for your time bringing all those ideas together but you do not seem to agree anything else other than whats in your mind..Viewpoint raised just one concern over your plan and you debated 15 pages for that...

Come on!! sometimes people may just disagree with you.

Finally I am able to answer your post, Ierini-Baris and welcome to the forum by the way.

The issue that VP raised, is a deliberate attempt for him to reject this plan, because this plan exposes him "crying wolf" all the time about "safeguards", which this plan gives him everything he wants, everything except what he really wants, a partition, just like the plan Annan Plan gave him under the cover of unification..............unification for 5 minutes that is, before official partition would have started taking effect, so don't pay too much attention to VP in what he is opposing to in this plan. I accept people to disagree with me on issues that can be changed, but there is no compromises can be made on Democracy and on Human rights. The EU will see to that, so lets not waste time arguing over these disagreements.

1.For birkibrislis proposal 8 is quite high number but 7 would be more sensible...

I will explain more in my 5 year plan soon which will cover Bir's question, mostly electing the Upper House members. But to answer your question, if you want to get technical, it will take 7 votes to pass a bill. If the senate vote is 5v5, then the vice President will break the deadlock one way or the other, and if the President goes on to sign the bill, that would make it 7 votes in total, even though it was only 5v5 in the senate.

The passing bills structure is not really an issue, even to VP, because if you went from a simple majority vote in the senate to a minimum 7 votes to pass a bill, not only it is unnecessary and redundant, but also very difficult to pass anything where the votes may be very close. The government needs to work and cannot be allowed that bills are "hijacked" by certain senators, when the vice President and the President can use their positions to help a bill pass or fail. You give 7 votes for any bill to pass, then you have in effect taken away the vice President’s and President's veto powers away somewhat.

2.About number of greek cypriots that would move to TC state Its a dilemma for me..I want to beileve that people will make their own decision about it. I am still concerned that 15000 GC can be found that are too religious and what If church suggests to move into the TC state( sorry guys but I dont trust the church but I do trust GC) thats the dilemma I have

I think you meant to say 150,000 GC's and not 15,000.

Look, you are not going to be able to prevent any Cypriot from exercising their Democratic and Human Rights, now that we are in the EU. When most of the 200,000 refugee GC's are given their land back or have been compensated for, the remaining 18-20% land for the TC state, will remain in the hands of the TC's..............mostly, because there will still be some GC's who may have a property there and would wish to remain there amongst the TC's. This will be a very small numbers and will not effect the total control of the TC state's and the Upper House's senate seats to remain in the hands of the TC's.

If an Imam told you to leave your community, your job, your kids school, your friends and family in the north state and move to the south state to try and unbalance the political landscape down in the southern state, would you go, and if you did, just how many other TC's would go with you, if you do not have any desires or connections in the south state.? This talk about Greek Priests leading 150,000 GC's to the TC state in the north reminds me of a scene from a film "The Ten Commandments", where Moses lead the Israelites to the new promised land from Egypt. We need to keep our feet on the ground here and not get carried away with all the scare mongering created by the NeoPartitionist. There is no bogeyman to worry about, or any Priests that will want to create an exodus for 150,000 disenchanted GC from the south to the north. The Priests will not be calling on to the Governor of the GC south state with statements like "Let My People Go".!

3. About your tone(Kikapu)..It was all ok till the point you compared Gaza strip and TC state...
( that frustruated me) I suppose you know that 1.5million Palestenians were living on land that was 3 times as large as Cyprus...

If you read what was written earlier, then you would have known what the Gaza Strip comment was all about, so let me refresh your memory. VP stated, that the TC's would be "squashed" if they were to be put in 18-20% of the north TC state. On the same breath, he states, if 18% is offered, then he would rather ask for a complete partition, so all of a sudden, space was no longer a issue. At 18-20%, the TC state would be 5 times larger than Gaza strip with ONLY 10th of the population. If we compare 18-20% TC state to Malta, once again, the TC state would be 5 times larger in land size and about 2 times smaller in population to the Maltese, an yet the Maltese have an economy around 10Billion US Dollars, so VP is talking total crap about being "squashed". He just does not want to give back 50% of the north's coastline back, that's all. Once again, do not pay too much attention to VP's complaints or his wish lists.

4.You are always talking about democracy and human rights but you seem to look from GC"s point of view

NO, I do not look at GC's point of view. Democracy is Democracy and Human Rights is Human Rights. It is there for all to benefit from, and the once who will benefit the most, are the TC's under such a system, because right now, they are living under a puppet state in a corrupted system. I hope you do not also prescribed for Cyprus to have a "Muslim Democracy" based in all other Muslim countries, where it has very little to do with Democracy. Being in the EU, we don't have any choice but to have a True Democracy. There's no being "little Pregnant" in the EU. Either you are Pregnant or you are not. Either you accept democracy or you don't. If you don't, then leave Democracy for the TC's who want them in Cyprus and the rest can move to another country where Democracy is only practiced in name, and nothing else.

5.GCs have right to return to their land you say and even If 10-12% land will be returned to GC state .You mention tha limitation of other GC to move to TC state is against human rights. Well it can be but for me a lonleaving peacefull country is more important than just blindly asking for human rights...

I see.!

What you mean is, you want to enjoy your Human Rights with freedom of movement, but you want to deny others Human Rights on their Freedom of Movement. This is actually not even a subject worth discussing, because it is a done deal, that you will not be able to prevent any Cypriot from living where ever they want in a Federation Cyprus. The TC state will not be a separate country where you can perhaps restrict other EU members to live there. No, this is one Cyprus, one country, one citizenship with two Federal states. No different than California and Arizona. Any American can move to either one of those two states to live, work and vote. If you take away these rights afforded to citizens, you wont have PEACE that you love so much versus Human Rights violation, you will have a REVOLUTION. Therefore, the best policy will be to return 50% of the land that the "trnc" now occupies back to the GC's, then you will not have the population movement that you have concerns about.

Even tough I disagree with some of your points ..Your plan is agreeable on general terms

I welcome all constructive criticism. I welcome others to add or subtract items from this plan, if they think it will make it work better and more efficient, as long as it does not violate anyone's Democratic and Human Rights. VP wants to violate others rights, while he wants more rights. This will not be allowed, and that's the reason why he is not too happy with this plan. He wants to make this plan into another Annan plan, and that will not be allowed, either by me, the GC's but most importantly, by the EU. The options are very cut and clear. EU values on Democracy and Human Rights, or nothing. There is no middle grey area, because even just for the sake of argument that the two leaders agree on something that is along the lines what VP wants, the first thing that will happen, will be law suits filed in the EU courts on violations of their Democratic and Human Rights, and they will win, and then what are you going to do.? Think about that one and let me know what the answer is.!

Riddled full of twisted and unbalanced crap not even worth responding but hey Ierini-Baris over to you, good luck.

[Kikapu]

I am a new member and I have read all the debate ...Kikapu thank you for your time bringing all those ideas together but you do not seem to agree anything else other than whats in your mind..Viewpoint raised just one concern over your plan and you debated 15 pages for that...

Come on!! sometimes people may just disagree with you.

Finally I am able to answer your post, Ierini-Baris and welcome to the forum by the way.

The issue that VP raised, is a deliberate attempt for him to reject this plan, because this plan exposes him "crying wolf" all the time about "safeguards", which this plan gives him everything he wants, everything except what he really wants, a partition, just like the plan Annan Plan gave him under the cover of unification..............unification for 5 minutes that is, before official partition would have started taking effect, so don't pay too much attention to VP in what he is opposing to in this plan. I accept people to disagree with me on issues that can be changed, but there is no compromises can be made on Democracy and on Human rights. The EU will see to that, so lets not waste time arguing over these disagreements.

1.For birkibrislis proposal 8 is quite high number but 7 would be more sensible...

I will explain more in my 5 year plan soon which will cover Bir's question, mostly electing the Upper House members. But to answer your question, if you want to get technical, it will take 7 votes to pass a bill. If the senate vote is 5v5, then the vice President will break the deadlock one way or the other, and if the President goes on to sign the bill, that would make it 7 votes in total, even though it was only 5v5 in the senate.

The passing bills structure is not really an issue, even to VP, because if you went from a simple majority vote in the senate to a minimum 7 votes to pass a bill, not only it is unnecessary and redundant, but also very difficult to pass anything where the votes may be very close. The government needs to work and cannot be allowed that bills are "hijacked" by certain senators, when the vice President and the President can use their positions to help a bill pass or fail. You give 7 votes for any bill to pass, then you have in effect taken away the vice President’s and President's veto powers away somewhat.

2.About number of greek cypriots that would move to TC state Its a dilemma for me..I want to beileve that people will make their own decision about it. I am still concerned that 15000 GC can be found that are too religious and what If church suggests to move into the TC state( sorry guys but I dont trust the church but I do trust GC) thats the dilemma I have

I think you meant to say 150,000 GC's and not 15,000.

Look, you are not going to be able to prevent any Cypriot from exercising their Democratic and Human Rights, now that we are in the EU. When most of the 200,000 refugee GC's are given their land back or have been compensated for, the remaining 18-20% land for the TC state, will remain in the hands of the TC's..............mostly, because there will still be some GC's who may have a property there and would wish to remain there amongst the TC's. This will be a very small numbers and will not effect the total control of the TC state's and the Upper House's senate seats to remain in the hands of the TC's.

If an Imam told you to leave your community, your job, your kids school, your friends and family in the north state and move to the south state to try and unbalance the political landscape down in the southern state, would you go, and if you did, just how many other TC's would go with you, if you do not have any desires or connections in the south state.? This talk about Greek Priests leading 150,000 GC's to the TC state in the north reminds me of a scene from a film "The Ten Commandments", where Moses lead the Israelites to the new promised land from Egypt. We need to keep our feet on the ground here and not get carried away with all the scare mongering created by the NeoPartitionist. There is no bogeyman to worry about, or any Priests that will want to create an exodus for 150,000 disenchanted GC from the south to the north. The Priests will not be calling on to the Governor of the GC south state with statements like "Let My People Go".!

3. About your tone(Kikapu)..It was all ok till the point you compared Gaza strip and TC state...
( that frustruated me) I suppose you know that 1.5million Palestenians were living on land that was 3 times as large as Cyprus...

If you read what was written earlier, then you would have known what the Gaza Strip comment was all about, so let me refresh your memory. VP stated, that the TC's would be "squashed" if they were to be put in 18-20% of the north TC state. On the same breath, he states, if 18% is offered, then he would rather ask for a complete partition, so all of a sudden, space was no longer a issue. At 18-20%, the TC state would be 5 times larger than Gaza strip with ONLY 10th of the population. If we compare 18-20% TC state to Malta, once again, the TC state would be 5 times larger in land size and about 2 times smaller in population to the Maltese, an yet the Maltese have an economy around 10Billion US Dollars, so VP is talking total crap about being "squashed". He just does not want to give back 50% of the north's coastline back, that's all. Once again, do not pay too much attention to VP's complaints or his wish lists.

4.You are always talking about democracy and human rights but you seem to look from GC"s point of view

NO, I do not look at GC's point of view. Democracy is Democracy and Human Rights is Human Rights. It is there for all to benefit from, and the once who will benefit the most, are the TC's under such a system, because right now, they are living under a puppet state in a corrupted system. I hope you do not also prescribed for Cyprus to have a "Muslim Democracy" based in all other Muslim countries, where it has very little to do with Democracy. Being in the EU, we don't have any choice but to have a True Democracy. There's no being "little Pregnant" in the EU. Either you are Pregnant or you are not. Either you accept democracy or you don't. If you don't, then leave Democracy for the TC's who want them in Cyprus and the rest can move to another country where Democracy is only practiced in name, and nothing else.

5.GCs have right to return to their land you say and even If 10-12% land will be returned to GC state .You mention tha limitation of other GC to move to TC state is against human rights. Well it can be but for me a lonleaving peacefull country is more important than just blindly asking for human rights...

I see.!

What you mean is, you want to enjoy your Human Rights with freedom of movement, but you want to deny others Human Rights on their Freedom of Movement. This is actually not even a subject worth discussing, because it is a done deal, that you will not be able to prevent any Cypriot from living where ever they want in a Federation Cyprus. The TC state will not be a separate country where you can perhaps restrict other EU members to live there. No, this is one Cyprus, one country, one citizenship with two Federal states. No different than California and Arizona. Any American can move to either one of those two states to live, work and vote. If you take away these rights afforded to citizens, you wont have PEACE that you love so much versus Human Rights violation, you will have a REVOLUTION. Therefore, the best policy will be to return 50% of the land that the "trnc" now occupies back to the GC's, then you will not have the population movement that you have concerns about.

Even tough I disagree with some of your points ..Your plan is agreeable on general terms

I welcome all constructive criticism. I welcome others to add or subtract items from this plan, if they think it will make it work better and more efficient, as long as it does not violate anyone's Democratic and Human Rights. VP wants to violate others rights, while he wants more rights. This will not be allowed, and that's the reason why he is not too happy with this plan. He wants to make this plan into another Annan plan, and that will not be allowed, either by me, the GC's but most importantly, by the EU. The options are very cut and clear. EU values on Democracy and Human Rights, or nothing. There is no middle grey area, because even just for the sake of argument that the two leaders agree on something that is along the lines what VP wants, the first thing that will happen, will be law suits filed in the EU courts on violations of their Democratic and Human Rights, and they will win, and then what are you going to do.? Think about that one and let me know what the answer is.!

Riddled full of twisted and unbalanced crap not even worth responding but hey Ierini-Baris over to you, good luck.

Come on VP, don't be a "party pooper" and tell us what I've said are unbalanced crap. As I said, I'm open to all constructive criticisms as well as any additional contributions or subtractions to this plan when done so without violating anyone's Democratic and Human Rights.!