Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Thank you for finally responding in detail to my post, which I have read with interest but am again dissapointed to find you still are engrossed with your usual one sidedness and sarcasm to a point exceeding nausia.

I only have one sided view, and that one sided view is based on True Democracy, Human Rights and International Law. Just because you do not approve the above principles to be part of the unified Cyprus, however, others do, which then you want to make accusations as being one sided favouring the GC's. I hope it is the view of all True Cypriots who want their country to be part of the west and their values. I'm I the only TC who favours the above principles and if that is the case, then the TC community is in a really big problem with the rest of the EU member states that they want to be part of.

You choose to continue your crusade for the GC cause by using child like scenarios and inuendos which do nothing but exsasberate any type of constructive debate one can generate with someone of your one sided mentality.

How many different ways can I tell you that BBF today can only be based on True Federation, True Democracy, respecting International Laws as well as the EU's principles. Perhaps back in the late 70's when BBF was agreed on and had it been implemented, you might have gotten close to what you want today, but after 30 years has gone by, not only the times have changed, but also much of the situation on the ground. You have to deal with the current situation by facing reality and no longer wishful thinking. These are the principles I have been telling you over and over again, but you just refuse to accept them, but instead asking me to find ways to violate those principles. What good will it do if I did see things your way? Will they become accepted by the GC's or the EU.? The answer is, of course not, so why beat my head against the wall like you by first going against my own principles on what I believe to be a Just and Fair as a settlement for all, and secondly, not achieve peace because it will be rejected by the GC's and the EU.

I will not respond to each of your responses as then you will be obliged to generate more of the same GC propaganda which will get us nowhere.

If anything I say that you do not like, then you want to label it as a GC propaganda, which goes to show that if anyone who is being biased here, it is you. You want things your way no matter how many Democratic, Human Rights and International law principles it violates. Fine, then lets see you convincing the GC's and the EU in accepting your demands. 2004 AP was your best hope yet, and if you couldn't convince the GC's then, you have less than ZERO chances in doing so now or in the future, specially not with the RoC being in the EU and having all the legalities on their side. Fair or not fair is not even a topic for discussion. The fact that those are the realities, a settlement can only come by taking those realities into the equation. This does not mean that the TC's are losers in all this by any means if such principles needs to be applied as expected by the EU. I have given you a plan where the TC's interests are protected Democratically. Now, if you want to fine tune that plan by negotiating with the GC's in them making some concessions here and there, at least for the short term, then you should do that, but overall, you will never again get anything that will look like the Annan Plan. This are the facts that you have not come to terms with and that you holding out for yet another AP to come along is only a "pipe dream".! That "AP train" left the station in 2004 I'm afraid and that it has been on a one way trip to the "wrecking yard". I did hear that the Israelis may in fact want to use it for themselves with the Palestinians. Says it all really, if true.!!!

The TRNC will continue to exsist as long as people like you who are the majority of GCs continue to show your inflexiblity and narrow stance, so Id like to thank you and wish you keep banging your head against that wall thinking that it will resolve matters, the real fact is you will die of brain damage but of course you will be none the wiser because you do not have the visionnor the desire to break free of your habit of hitting your head against a brick wall. Thank you once again keep up the good work.

If sticking by True Democracy, Human Rights, International law and the EU principles is considered as being "inflexible and narrow stance", then I'm guilty as charged and if a settlement is not reached as a result of those principles, then such a settlement is not worth having, not now and not in the future, because, if we were to accept such violations of those principles, then the next thing will be the repeats of the 1963 all over again. You did not live in those times or even after. You came to Cyprus in 1993 when everything was very "sanitized". You are very foreign to Cyprus and it's ugly past, and no matter how much appreciation you might have for the past, you do not know it on any personal level. We will not risk of going back to those days with your demands of creating another racists and undemocratic 1960 constitution based on violating the rights of others, so that you can enjoy more rights than others.

The world has moved on and such violations will not be accepted in the EU. I'm so sorry for you and all others who were duped by Kofi Annan that such violation and undemocratic means would be accepted in Europe in 2004. Cyprus deserves to be an equal partner along with all other EU members in every aspect. We should feel privileged that Cyprus is in the EU which will go a long way to maintain peace in Cyprus under True Democracy. It is time for all Cypriots to turn a new leaf and embrace these new principles. We have tried the alternatives in 1960 and it failed us miserably. There's no point in trying to repackage past broken bad system as a new. It is time to start with something that is new and fresh for Cyprus. Like it or not, there really is no going back anymore, and those are the realities and the facts. It will be best for Cyprus's and for our children's future.!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

I only have one sided view, and that one sided view is based on True Democracy, Human Rights and International Law. Just because you do not approve the above principles to be part of the unified Cyprus, however, others do, which then you want to make accusations as being one sided favouring the GC's. I hope it is the view of all True Cypriots who want their country to be part of the west and their values. I'm I the only TC who favours the above principles and if that is the case, then the TC community is in a really big problem with the rest of the EU member states that they want to be part of.

Again you force me to remind you because you do not really absorb what I am saying that it is not the knife we are worried but the doctor using that knife. We will not allow him to carve us into pieces all in the name of science. We need to know that he cannot operate on us as he wishes because this will leave us at his mercy 100%, if he choses to proceed as previously and abuse his power then he must be fully aware of the risks and punishment.

How many different ways can I tell you that BBF today can only be based on True Federation, True Democracy, respecting International Laws as well as the EU's principles. Perhaps back in the late 70's when BBF was agreed on and had it been implemented, you might have gotten close to what you want today, but after 30 years has gone by, not only the times have changed, but also much of the situation on the ground. You have to deal with the current situation by facing reality and no longer wishful thinking. These are the principles I have been telling you over and over again, but you just refuse to accept them, but instead asking me to find ways to violate those principles. What good will it do if I did see things your way? Will they become accepted by the GC's or the EU.? The answer is, of course not, so why beat my head against the wall like you by first going against my own principles on what I believe to be a Just and Fair as a settlement for all, and secondly, not achieve peace because it will be rejected by the GC's and the EU.

The good will be that you will stop telling us to take a leap of faith without safeguards and guarantees therefore not placing us at the mercy of GCs to do as they wish all under the guise of "True Democracy and Human Rights" which the GCs can manipulate and twist to suit themselves as they excell at this deception.

The only area where we disagree are guaranteed GC and TC seats in the upper house, the rest can be sorted out but you still maintain that we allow the GCs they opportunity to take 1 seat and therefore total control over the whole island using both houses. Aint gonna happen we to have red lines and this is one of them, other ways have to be found to address this very sensative agreement breaking issue.

If anything I say that you do not like, then you want to label it as a GC propaganda, which goes to show that if anyone who is being biased here, it is you. You want things your way no matter how many Democratic, Human Rights and International law principles it violates. Fine, then lets see you convincing the GC's and the EU in accepting your demands. 2004 AP was your best hope yet, and if you couldn't convince the GC's then, you have less than ZERO chances in doing so now or in the future, specially not with the RoC being in the EU and having all the legalities on their side. Fair or not fair is not even a topic for discussion. The fact that those are the realities, a settlement can only come by taking those realities into the equation. This does not mean that the TC's are losers in all this by any means if such principles needs to be applied as expected by the EU. I have given you a plan where the TC's interests are protected Democratically. Now, if you want to fine tune that plan by negotiating with the GC's in them making some concessions here and there, at least for the short term, then you should do that, but overall, you will never again get anything that will look like the Annan Plan. This are the facts that you have not come to terms with and that you holding out for yet another AP to come along is only a "pipe dream".! That "AP train" left the station in 2004 I'm afraid and that it has been on a one way trip to the "wrecking yard". I did hear that the Israelis may in fact want to use it for themselves with the Palestinians. Says it all really, if true.!!!

Another reality you appear to have conveniently forgotten is that we have been divided for 35 years and this will continue as long as you do not get off your high horse and deal with the realities before you. We represent 50% of the say in the solution and therefore we have just as much right to fight for what we believe is right just as you do for the GCs.

The reason why we want derrogrations which have been used by other new EU member states is to strike a blance which the GCs cannot bulldoze to their advantage and push TCs to one side stripping them of the community rights and reducing them to minority status in a GC state run by GCs solely for GCs. You continously forget that the democracy and human rights will be administered by GCs for who we today have absolutely no trust, we see it as lambs to the slaughter and not TC can throw off this mindset from the outset it will take time and derrogrations to get both sides to trust the other. Its not as if we are sharing toys its our joint future and the fact that TCs were treated badly by GCs has left a very bad after taste in TCs mouths, so they will not move forward without safeguards and guarantees which will ensure their effective and irreversable role in a new united Cyprus eg where we are guaranteed a TC singer once every 5 years, if never voted in by the general public.

If sticking by True Democracy, Human Rights, International law and the EU principles is considered as being "inflexible and narrow stance", then I'm guilty as charged and if a settlement is not reached as a result of those principles, then such a settlement is not worth having, not now and not in the future, because, if we were to accept such violations of those principles, then the next thing will be the repeats of the 1963 all over again. You did not live in those times or even after. You came to Cyprus in 1993 when everything was very "sanitized". You are very foreign to Cyprus and it's ugly past, and no matter how much appreciation you might have for the past, you do not know it on any personal level. We will not risk of going back to those days with your demands of creating another racists and undemocratic 1960 constitution based on violating the rights of others, so that you can enjoy more rights than others.

You twist and change as it suits you and displays your inconsistency as a debator, you have never been to the TRNC yet you support that you dont have to actually visit and see first hand to know everything about us, yet you state I have no personal knowledge of 1963 and the events thereafter so I cannot appreciate the risks of creating another racist and undemocratic agreement. Your double standards knows no bounds and therefore warrants no real credibility, the bottom line will always remain the TCs will not enter into an agreement that will throw away their right to rule themselves and be exposed to GC manipulation and discriminaiton all neatly packed in a box called true democracy and human rights as administered by the majority and that being the GCs.
This alone will take us back to the dark years and the only guarantee you will have is that within a short period of time a civil war would yet again erupt between the 2 major communities.

The world has moved on and such violations will not be accepted in the EU. I'm so sorry for you and all others who were duped by Kofi Annan that such violation and undemocratic means would be accepted in Europe in 2004. Cyprus deserves to be an equal partner along with all other EU members in every aspect. We should feel privileged that Cyprus is in the EU which will go a long way to maintain peace in Cyprus under True Democracy. It is time for all Cypriots to turn a new leaf and embrace these new principles. We have tried the alternatives in 1960 and it failed us miserably. There's no point in trying to repackage past broken bad system as a new. It is time to start with something that is new and fresh for Cyprus. Like it or not, there really is no going back anymore, and those are the realities and the facts. It will be best for Cyprus's and for our children's future.!

We will not gift our childrens futures to GCs just because they are in the EU, derrogrations are totally acceptable to the EU and it was actually them that rubber stamped the derrogaritions contained in the AP so dont play the tune that they will not allow derrogarations in order to find a way to pull out the thorn in their finger and stop the bleeding.

You are right there is no going back Cyprus has been changed forever and BBF with political equality is whats on offer about time you grasped it and understood that TCs are equal partners and will be allowed to administer themselves with an effective and permanent say in the federal structure.

[humanist]

kikapu .... better than any politicians have come up with in the last 30 years cheers

[Viewpoint]

kikapu .... better than any politicians have come up with in the last 30 years cheers

What do you think about the risk it hides that TCs can be pushed to one side yet again?

[humanist]

the TC will not be pushed to the side ... I think Cyprus has learnt a very important lesson. The EU itself and whether I agree with Cyprus' entry into the EU or not will also provide a safety net available to all EU citizens.

[Viewpoint]

the TC will not be pushed to the side ... I think Cyprus has learnt a very important lesson. The EU itself and whether I agree with Cyprus' entry into the EU or not will also provide a safety net available to all EU citizens.

Thats all we ask for safeguards and guarantees to ensure neither side has the door left open to repeat the mistakes of the past all under the disguise of democracy.

[T_C]

Viewpoint there are a lot of things I don't agree with you on, but I don't see the big deal in what you are asking here!

[humanist]

VP

Thats all we ask for safeguards and guarantees to ensure neither side has the door left open to repeat the mistakes of the past all under the disguise of democracy.

VP you are constantly re hashing this issue. Do you agree that in a United Cyprus under the umbrella of the EU your rights as a minority group in Cyprus and indeed the EU you will be afforded the same protection as all other citizens?

further than this you need to take your concern elsewhere because I cannot think of any other way to explain myself.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint there are a lot of things I don't agree with you on, but I don't see the big deal in what you are asking here!

the upper house is made up of 5tcs and 5gc seats, the risk is if 1 seat goes to the GCs dues to their moving into the TC state we have lost any effective say in our own future, isnt that a very important risk to you?

[T_C]

Viewpoint there are a lot of things I don't agree with you on, but I don't see the big deal in what you are asking here!

the upper house is made up of 5tcs and 5gc seats, the risk is if 1 seat goes to the GCs dues to their moving into the TC state we have lost any effective say in our own future. isnt that risk to you?

YES! I think you misunderstood what I said. I meant I didn't understand why it's such a big deal for them what you are asking for....!

After our turbulent history I see it as fair that we get an effective say in what happens in the country....this is supposed to be a solution afterall...it should address everyones concerns, forever, and not leave anything to chance or the goodwill of the other!

If we're left with a constitution with loopholes you can bet the GCs will take advantage of it..they would eventually take control of the north too, I'm sure they would think of some cunning plan, like selling their properties to Greeks only.

Saying that I don't think it's fair to restrict them in where they move to either...nor do I think it's fair to leave TCs at the GCs mercy...

Gosh, I just don't know what a perfect solution would be...