Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

Yes but was this chap Banyaman charged and subject to the due process of the law that we must surely all insist on? That is such things as being brought before normal criminal courts, with the presumption of innocence until and if found guilty, in a timely way to answer the charges against him and with such things as legal representation? Why was this chap presumed guilty and denied a fair trial?

These are some of the standards that we must surely all expect if we are charged with offences, why were these things denied to this and other chaps?

[Get Real!]

Miltiades... do yourself a favor and just stick to the pots and pans!

[CopperLine]

Below is a summary of Binyamin's biography (I put in bold my own comments for Miltiades) :

"1978: Mohamed is born in Ethiopia on 24 July.

1994: He arrives in the UK, aged 16, with his family, who seek asylum because of their opposition to the then-government of Ethiopia. This is refused. [As a child he applies for asylum; the implication of your previous comments seem to be that simply because he was an asylum seeker he was automatically 'suspect' - is that what you think ?]

2000: Mohamed is given exceptional leave to remain in the UK for a further four years. While living in London, he works as a cleaner and studies electrical engineering.

2001: He converts to Islam [converting to Islam is not a criminal nor terrorist offence; neither is travelling to Pakistan] before travelling to Pakistan and then Afghanistan. There, the US alleges, he attends terrorism training camps and hears lectures by Osama bin Laden [this is an allegation, not a fact]. The US charges claim Mohamed went on a bomb-making course and plotted terrorism attacks in Pakistan [this is a charge, not a fact]. His lawyers insist any case was obtained by torture. [Militiades, do you think (a) it is OK to torture people ? and (b) that information gathered under torture is reliable ?]


April 2002: He is arrested at Karachi airport en route to the UK. Mohamed says he was tortured in Pakistan, in whose custody he was visited by a British intelligence agent. He then says he was taken to Morocco and held for 18 months, during which he suffered more torture. [British intelligence agents have effectively admitted (a) acquiring information through torture, (b) permitting torture and (c) not taking efforts to prevent torture - all illegal]

September 2004: Mohamed arrives at the US prison in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. He claims that he was transferred first to a CIA facility in Kabul.

[So Militiades this guy, whom the UK has given exceptional leave to remain because of persecution in Ethiopia is now subject to at least eighteen months of torture in different countries with the direct knowledge of the British govt; is then sent off to Guantanamo when some two years after his initial arrest he is charged by the US BUT he is not told the evidence against him, is not allowed get independent legal advice, is not allowed to challenge the procedure, is not allowed to call witnesses, is not allowed to even consult the 'evidence' against him ...]

2008

May: Mohamed is formally charged by the Pentagon with conspiring to commit terrorism and war crimes, for which he faces a possible death penalty. Later that month he writes to Gordon Brown asking for assistance to bring him back to the UK. He writes: "I have been held without trial by the US for six years, one month and 12 days. That is 2,234 days (very long days and often longer nights). Of this, about 550 days were in a torture chamber in Morocco and about 150 in the 'Dark Prison' in Kabul. Still there is no end in sight, no prospect of a fair trial."

4 June: The US charges Mohamed with allegedly plotting to blow up apartment buildings in America with radioactive "dirty bombs".

21 August: Mohamed wins a high court attempt to force British security services to reveal secret information on him, including the alleged torture.

27 August: The US state department warns that the disclosure of information connected to Mohamed's alleged torture would cause "serious and lasting damage" to security relations between it and the UK.

21 October: The US government drops war crimes charges against Mohamed and four other Guantánamo detainees. On the same day, the high court in London calls the US refusal to disclose evidence about torture "deeply disturbing".

30 October: It is revealed that the home secretary, Jacqui Smith, has asked the attorney general to investigate possible "criminal wrongdoing" by the MI5 and the CIA over its treatment of Mohamed.

2009

5 January: Mohamed reportedly begins a hunger strike, which lasts until 11 February. Near the end of the protest his lawyers warn that he is close to death.

20 January: Barack Obama becomes US president, and immediately begins moves to close down Guantánamo.

4 February: The high court rules that evidence connected to Mohamed's alleged torture at Guantánamo must remain secret because of US threats about a possible end to intelligence co-operation if the disclosures are made. The following day the foreign secretary, David Miliband, denies the US made such a threat.

15 February: UK officials, among them a doctor, visit Mohamed to see whether he is in a fit state to return home.

20 February: Miliband announces that the US and UK governments have reached a deal under which Mohamed can return to Britain soon.

23 February: Mohamed is flown back to the UK."

It is only thanks to the extraordinary determination, skill and persistance of a relatively small group of human rights lawyers in the UK and USA (including a handful of dissenting US military lawyers) that this poor guy has see the light of day again.

As others have said, this case and others like it are an absolutely shameful and indefencible episode in British and American history. I simply fail to see why you continue to seek to defend these travesties, Militiades ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/fe ... am-mohamed[/b]

[miltiades]

I will persist in defending the right of the Western world to defend its citizens from likely terrorists attacks such as those of 9/11 , 7/7 .Harsh measures are deemed to be unavoidable at times of national security issues in order for the state to fulfill its obligations to its citizens , Israel is a perfect example in not remaining dormant faced with daily rockets launched at its cities.
As for this young man , first of all I never suggested that converting to Islam is a crime , the other way around might be so but in our free world all are allowed to believe in whatever they choose to.
He got himself in a situation where fellow Muslims , the Pakistani security , suspected him of being involved in terrorist activities.
No civilized human being can possibly condone torture in any way and under any circumstances at the same time no decent human being would get involved in such barbaric atrocities as 9/11 and 7/7 .
Those who are determined to spread death and destruction to our cities murdering innocent civilians must surely understand that they and they alone are ultimately responsible for a reaction by the authorities that is not in line with human decency.
During WW2 London was indiscriminately bombed by the Germans and many German cities were carpet bombed by the allies , indiscriminately. Both were guilty for crimes against humanity , that is what happens when war breaks out , the observers of etiquette and good manners lose the war , I hope the British and Americans wake up to realities and act accordingly.

[CopperLine]

I will persist in defending the right of the Western world to defend its citizens from likely terrorists attacks such as those of 9/11 , 7/7 .Harsh measures are deemed to be unavoidable at times of national security issues in order for the state to fulfill its obligations to its citizens , - so violence before justice - Israel is a perfect example in not remaining dormant faced with daily rockets launched at its cities. Israel is a perfect example of permanent war because it will not pursue justice
As for this young man , first of all I never suggested that converting to Islam is a crime , the other way around might be so but in our free world all are allowed to believe in whatever they choose to.
He got himself in a situation NO HE DID NOT GET HIMSELF IN A SITUATION; OTHER PEOPLE, WHO WALK FREE, STITCHED HIM UP where fellow Muslims , the Pakistani security , suspected him of being involved in terrorist activities.
No civilized human being can possibly condone torture in any way but you just have done Militiades by saying "Harsh measures are deemed to be unavoidable at times of national security issues in order for the state to fulfill its obligations to its citizens" and under any circumstances at the same time no decent human being would get involved in such barbaric atrocities as 9/11 and 7/7 . which Binyamin Mohamed was not involved, so what is your point ?
Those who are determined to spread death and destruction to our cities murdering innocent civilians must surely understand that they and they alone are ultimately responsible for a reaction by the authorities that is not in line with human decency. which, again, Binyamin Mohamed was not involved, so what is your point ?
During WW2 London was indiscriminately bombed by the Germans and many German cities were carpet bombed by the allies , indiscriminately. Both were guilty for crimes against humanity , that is what happens when war breaks out , the observers of etiquette and good manners lose the war , I hope the British and Americans wake up to realities and act accordingly. Miltiades, do you realise what you have just written in this last sentence : war crimes are justified because without them your in danger of losing wars.

[/b]

[purdey]

I would like to see a list of countries that does not detain suspected terrorists or illegal immigrants without trial. I fear it would be a blank piece of paper.

[bill cobbett]

I would like to see a list of countries that does not detain suspected terrorists or illegal immigrants without trial. I fear it would be a blank piece of paper.

I for one would condemn any country on such a list.

Due process of the law, fair and timely trials for all, otherwise we're back to the days of summary witch-hunts.

[miltiades]

I will persist in defending the right of the Western world to defend its citizens from likely terrorists attacks such as those of 9/11 , 7/7 .Harsh measures are deemed to be unavoidable at times of national security issues in order for the state to fulfill its obligations to its citizens , - so violence before justice - Israel is a perfect example in not remaining dormant faced with daily rockets launched at its cities. Israel is a perfect example of permanent war because it will not pursue justice
As for this young man , first of all I never suggested that converting to Islam is a crime , the other way around might be so but in our free world all are allowed to believe in whatever they choose to.
He got himself in a situation NO HE DID NOT GET HIMSELF IN A SITUATION; OTHER PEOPLE, WHO WALK FREE, STITCHED HIM UP where fellow Muslims , the Pakistani security , suspected him of being involved in terrorist activities.
No civilized human being can possibly condone torture in any way but you just have done Militiades by saying "Harsh measures are deemed to be unavoidable at times of national security issues in order for the state to fulfill its obligations to its citizens" and under any circumstances at the same time no decent human being would get involved in such barbaric atrocities as 9/11 and 7/7 . which Binyamin Mohamed was not involved, so what is your point ?
Those who are determined to spread death and destruction to our cities murdering innocent civilians must surely understand that they and they alone are ultimately responsible for a reaction by the authorities that is not in line with human decency. which, again, Binyamin Mohamed was not involved, so what is your point ?
During WW2 London was indiscriminately bombed by the Germans and many German cities were carpet bombed by the allies , indiscriminately. Both were guilty for crimes against humanity , that is what happens when war breaks out , the observers of etiquette and good manners lose the war , I hope the British and Americans wake up to realities and act accordingly. Miltiades, do you realise what you have just written in this last sentence : war crimes are justified because without them your in danger of losing wars.

[/b]

Answer a post with YOUR own post , your method of replying can leave a reader with the impression that that post was that of whom you quoted .
The West has a duty to protect its citizens against the barbarous attacks of these savages who get on a plane and murder all those innocent passengers while shouting praise to their god. The West must defend itself against such ruthless callous murderers. I do not for one single second accept that this guy was in Pakistan for recreation purposes , business or pleasure. There is no smoke without fire , what on earth does an asylum seeker want to go to Pakistan for .
My loyalty is with those that protect my freedom not those who wish to deprive me of it.
As for your typically condecending last comment ie war crimes are justified etc etc .. I think what I said was " Both were guilty for crimes against humanity , that is what happens when war breaks out , the observers of etiquette and good manners lose the war , I hope the British and Americans wake up to realities and act """

There are no "nice " or "civilized" wars . That is an irrefutable fact. Wars are about killing and causing as much damage as you can on your enemy in order to incapacitate them and force them to capitulate.
War crimes are committed in every war , no one can possibly defend war crimes but every one can understand why.
9/11 and 7/7 were horrific acts , crimes against humanity . I take your point that this young man WAS NOT INVOLVED AND ..NEITHER DID HE SUPPORT SUCH ACTS .!!!
The training he underwent in Pakistan, on his own admission , was merely just that , a trainig exercise , like going to the gym.

[miltiades]

Miltiades... do yourself a favor and just stick to the pots and pans!

I think you are ba...rny , and ..potty , you annoy me once more boy and I shall ...floor you !!!
How is the floor by the way , slippery no doubt like you , in the UK we call people like you slippery ..pans

[Free Spirit]

They should have shot the racist muslim terrorist Bastard.

If one of your children or grandkids were to ever marry a Muslim it would do you a lot of good...

I'd rather they marry a coon.