Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

I think you do not know what you are talking about Erol!

What do you mean they "have been effectively 'stolen' in their entirety"?

Land cannot be stolen in a physical sense,

Well my understanding is that there is some former TC land (both from 63-4 period and 74 period) where by whatever illegal mechanisms the officaly recognised (by RoC) deeds / ownership has passed into others hands. My understanding may be wrong but that is what I currently understand.

Frauds can happen in nearly all aspects of social and economic activity and they influence all people, in this case both GCs and TCs, alike!
I do not know what you specifically have in mind, but I know by fact the following few cases.
Some TC families have bought before 1974 some land which they mortgaged in commercial banks, either to pay it's original purchase value or in order to finance the construction of a house inside! They received the loans but either because they did not have the money to settle the loan payments or because in 1974 they left to the north, the loans remained entirely or partially unpaid. The commercial banks assumed the ownership of these mortgaged properties and subsequently sold them further down in order to earn back the loan balances. Presumably these TCs do consider and do claim that they are the owners of these properties and I also suppose that they used copies of their original title deeds or the initial purchase agreements, in order to get in “exchange” some other GC land in the north from the "TRNC"!

Now! When they visited those properties in the south, they discovered that those properties are not in their name any longer and someone else is claiming to be the owner. I will not be surprised if this people have turned back in the north and spread the news that their properties have been illegally confiscated, obviously without telling the whole story.

However and to the extent that I am aware about, such cases are very small in number! I personally heard of only 2-3 such real cases during the 30 years that I live in Pafos where the majority of TC land is located!

In any case, I am sure if there is any balance left from these bank transactions they can always claim it and even go to courts to challenge the decisions and acts of the banks.

[fi]

erolz I say that all TC should be returned to their rightful owners and the owners be compensated for any use and I'll do my best to see it through now you say the same about GC property.

[erolz]

erolz I say that all TC should be returned to their rightful owners and the owners be compensated for any use and I'll do my best to see it through now you say the same about GC property.

I agree that everyone who lost property should recieve resitituion for that loss either by return or exchange or financially. I do not agree that we should insist that the only acceptable form of compensation is return and nothing else. Many GC as I understand it do not wish to return. Many TC I know do not wish to return (or be forced to return). We should in my view make every effort to not use 'forced retrun' where possible and use it only as a 'last resort'. Where there is a direct conflict between say a GC that wants to return to a property (and for whom finacial compensation, or a similar / equivalent property in a similar area is not acceptable to them) where there is now a TC family living (who similarly will not accept compenation, return to property that they may have had in the south or an equivalent property in the same area) then a judment will have to be made and one of the (least unacceptable to them) options imposed on one of the parties. I do not think that in such a senario the GC desires should always and automaticaly win out over the TC desires - because to me both communites have some responsibility for the cretion of this situation and thus both should shoulder some of the pain (not being able to have the first choice of remedy).

[fi]

Absolutely! If people don't want to return you can't force them. That's another story.

[Viewpoint]

fi

Absolutely their is a dedicated service that safeguards TC property in ROC, unlike what happens in the occupied north.

Wouldnt make such a general statement, a lot of TCs land around limassol has been used for housing both for refugees and for sale....We had another example of the airport and a man who has had a factory built on his...

No TC land is used for sale in Limassol or elsewhere and only a very small portion of TC land was used for refuge housing. There are only 3 such refugee settlements in the entire Limassol area that had been built on TC land. Each one of them doesn't occupy more than 20-25 donums of land. That makes a total of 60-70 donums, and all of them are housing about 1,500 refugee families. By the way, have you seen how these houses (apartments) were built? One on top or “inside” the other!

The total TC land in the entire area of Limassol district is about 130 thousand donums. The 70 donums over the entire TC land constitute about 0.05% of this land!

If you check the court cases in the approximately 50 donums of TC land has been used to build houses which have been used for refugees, I have visited these home and they are of a very good standard with a view overlooking limassol, a proportion of these 50 donums was used for private housing and sold to GCs, the TC has now taken the Government and this private company to court for compensation. If you wish and the individual agrees I can PM you with the GC solicitors details so you can help speed up the slow process which is trying to deter the plaintiff and every turn.

EDITED for reason mainly quoted parts
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus1566.html

[Kifeas]

If you check the court cases in the approximately 50 donums of TC land has been used to build houses which have been used for refugees, I have visited these home and they are of a very good standard with a view overlooking limassol, a proportion of these 50 donums was used for private housing and sold to GCs, the TC has now taken the Government and this private company to court for compensation. If you wish and the individual agrees I can PM you with the GC solicitors details so you can help speed up the slow process which is trying to deter the plaintiff and every turn.

Then this is clear-cut case of criminal fraud, it is an illegality, which has to be dealt by the courts and does not prove, represent or relate to any RoC policy regarding TC properties! Most likely it also involved the fabrication of documents so that this property doesn’t look like it belongs to the TC owner but to somebody else, something that can happen (and does happen) to everybody, including GCs.

Can I call the sale and building inside my land in Lapithos a fraud and subsequently come in the "TRNC" police or courts and seek re-establishment of my property. Absolutely not! Because such ownership is no longer attributed or recognized to me by the "TRNC." At least in the case of the TC from Limassol, his ownership rights are recognized and he can persecute the fraudulent party.

Now that I re-explained it to you in more detail and made it more simplified, can you see the critical difference?

[Viewpoint]

If you check the court cases in the approximately 50 donums of TC land has been used to build houses which have been used for refugees, I have visited these home and they are of a very good standard with a view overlooking limassol, a proportion of these 50 donums was used for private housing and sold to GCs, the TC has now taken the Government and this private company to court for compensation. If you wish and the individual agrees I can PM you with the GC solicitors details so you can help speed up the slow process which is trying to deter the plaintiff and every turn.

Then this is clear-cut case of criminal fraud, it is an illegality, which has to be dealt by the courts and does not prove, represent or relate to any RoC policy regarding TC properties! Most likely it also involved the fabrication of documents so that this property doesn’t look like it belongs to the TC owner but to somebody else, something that can happen (and does happen) to everybody, including GCs.

Can I call the sale and building inside my land in Lapithos a fraud and subsequently come in the "TRNC" police or courts and seek re-establishment of my property. Absolutely not! Because such ownership is no longer attributed or recognized to me by the "TRNC." At least in the case of the TC from Limassol, his ownership rights are recognized and he can persecute the fraudulent party.

Now that I re-explained it to you in more detail and made it more simplified, can you see the critical difference?

Do you think you owe me an apology?? Kifeas I try to respect your views without using such abuse, Id wish youd do the same..

The "RoC" guardian claims to safe guard all TC properties in this case it has not fulfilled its duties so that makes me questions its creditability. Plus GC always claim they are Europeans and therefore abide by EU laws, they also claim to represent TCs so they have to take into account all claims and adhere to all laws that they consider as applicable in these cases.

We are not in the EU, we are currently the TRNC and we do not represent or claim to represent GCs, we have our own laws rules and regulations which govern us. As you know the events leading up to 1974 brought about the current situation your voice may not be heard in the TRNC but according to your laws you have the right to recourse via ECHR, It may sound very cold hearted and I do sympathise with your financial loss but we as individuals did not cause the Cyprus issue and as long as there is no solution the current status quo will continue.

[Kifeas]

The "RoC" guardian claims to safe guard all TC properties in this case it has not fulfilled its duties so that makes me questions its creditability. Plus GC always claim they are Europeans and therefore abide by EU laws, they also claim to represent TCs so they have to take into account all claims and adhere to all laws that they consider as applicable in these cases.

The guardian claims so but we cannot exclude the possibility that there could be cases of corruption even in the public sector. We do not live in a planet full of angels. The critical issue is whether whatever happened with the case you have in mind, is part of an overall official GC policy or it was simply a case of a corruption scandal involving some PS officers and an individual case of civil fraud. Furthermore, this issue has nothing to do with EU laws but with the already existing laws and the constitution of the RoC, set aside the fact than in all EU countries, scandals and cases of corruption do happen too.

We are not in the EU, we are currently the TRNC and we do not represent or claim to represent GCs, we have our own laws rules and regulations which govern us. As you know the events leading up to 1974 brought about the current situation your voice may not be heard in the TRNC but according to your laws you have the right to recourse via ECHR, It may sound very cold hearted and I do sympathise with your financial loss but we as individuals did not cause the Cyprus issue and as long as there is no solution the current status quo will continue.

It is not a matter of representing the GCs or not, to have, at least in theory and on paper, a policy of respecting their property rights!

You are perfectly right in what you said that we as individuals did not cause the Cyprus problem and therefore I personally take a distance from blaming the ordinary TC individual and instead focus my blame on Turkey and the TC leadership. And since you rightfully said that we as individuals did not cause the problem, that by itself should have been enough reason for the TC leadership to have shown some more decency and respect for the individual GC's property rights.

[Viewpoint]

GC property rights will be respected and effected to the letter once a comprehensive solution has been found otherwise we cannot be held hostage on development issues until GCs formualte a solution that will give them the upper hand and lead to a GC state where we will become a minority with no political clout in our own country and in the river of time TCs will disappear as was intentionally planned pre 1974. Do you understand my concerns which are shared by many TCs....

Im asking this question but I hope it is not misunderstood, do you not feel that the development of property in the north has a positive effect of applying pressure on the GC administration with regards to returning to the negotiating table to conduct sincere and genuine negotiations which they did not at the last attempt being the Annan plan.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas thank you for your apology, did i miss it?, why am i suprised wouldnt expect anything less, seems to be a few GCs who act in this fashion, we all know who they are....