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Update on UK travel advice for the property issue in Cyprus.

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Anglo » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:34 pm

Sorry, that's wrong. The UK advice says that purchase of land that belonged to either to Turkish-Cypriot or foreign owners prior to 1974 is effectively a safe buy as there are unlikely to be any future claims upon it. However, the TRNC-title land is largely the spoils taken from former GC owners and is therefore likely to disputes over ownership in the future.

The fact that pre-1974 TC and foreign-owned land is exempt from the warning doesn't recognise the land-redistribution since then. It simply says that the title to the land is not likely to be disputed and hence there should be no barriers to buying it.




Sorry, Mr Moose, but I think you are reading it wrongly here. I didn't say that they recognised it - they just don't discourage it and they don't say it is illegal.

If they wanted to stop UK citizens buying dispossessed GC land, here is what they would say: " Do Not Buy disspossessed GC land in the TRNC"

Here's the exact piece of advice on the FCO's site:

Property issues are closely linked to the political situation (see Cyprus Country Profile). There are a number of potential practical, financial and legal implications, particularly for those considering buying property in the north – these relate to the non-recognition of the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”, the possibility of a future political settlement in Cyprus, and claims to ownership from people displaced in 1974. There is also a risk that purchasers would face legal proceedings in the courts of the Republic of Cyprus, as well as attempts to enforce judgements from the courts of the Republic of Cyprus elsewhere in the EU, including the UK. Separately, there are specific [u]rules for foreigners purchasing property in the north and you should ensure you are fully aware of these.

[Time share/property salespersons tout for business in Cyprus, especially in the Paphos area. You should read the fine print very carefully and seek legal advice before signing any kind of contract. Under Cyprus law you are entitled to a 15-day “cooling off” period during which, if you change your mind, you should receive a full refund of any money paid.


When you read it with the words underlined borne in mind you see that it is a diplomatic way of appeasing the GC Government but at the same time saying we do not see the sales of these properties in this way but the GCs do and they may "claim ownership" - that does not mean they will have ownership.

There may be "potential" implications - not actual ones.

There could be a political settlement "possibly" not definitely

There is a "risk" that legal action could result - not that there definitely will be action. Also the could be "attempts" to get enforcement in EU courts not there will be definite or even probableenforcement.

"There are specific rules..." this could easily have pointed out pre 1974 titles as the only ones where these rules should be followed but this is clearly not the case.

Notice how the advice finishes with a warning about Paphos, in order to dilute the emphasis on the TRNC
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Postby Michael Coumas » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:07 pm

Kifeas
I take on board all you say, with the greatest of respect may I say that I have heard it all before, that is not to say however that I agree with the current situation or will ever accept anything other than a just settlement.
I am 57 and originally Ardhana, now Limassol & currently UK. (My Great Grandfather was from Paphos)
I am sure you consider Lapithos “the most beautiful place on earth”, and why shouldn’t you if your roots are there. I am certain most people feel the same way about their own ancestral homes.
I am sorry but I do stand by what I originally posted as long as you understand it is not intended to have any malice or bad intent in any way, shape or form. I read too much of that together with the bad language and threatening attitudes on these pages and sometimes despair. That is why I quote my real name in full and do not hide behind a pseudonym. Had you read past posts of mine you will know that I do feel that Mainland Turkey and Greece although looking after their own interests do not help our cause too much and finally I must say that I do not think our politicians or most politicians exercise statesman like qualities which enables them to find solutions. We must agree to disagree on that one but do not think that I do not respect them for their efforts, I do, but 31 years have proven that the best efforts are not good enough – perhaps the best we can expect but by definition not good enough.
Anyway I wish you well and may I be permitted to quote you a Liberal politician who said “the country is going down the drain and they are squabbling about the size of the
plughole” - not applicable in this case but sums politicians up. Others of course promise to build a Bridge even when there is no River as Nikita Khruschev once said.
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Postby RAFAELLA » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:52 am

Κ) Εκπρόσωπος - Αγγλικό Εφετείο - ΕΔΑΔ - Διακρατική - Υπόθεση Λοϊζίδου
ΚΥΠΕ - ΛΕΥΚΩΣΙΑ-Κύπρος - 28/6/2005 14:37

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Το αγγλικό Εφετείο υιοθέτησε, για σκοπούς καθοδήγησης του αγγλικού δικαστηρίου, τις αποφάσεις του Ευρωπαϊκού Δικαστηρίου Ανθρωπίνων Δικαιωμάτων στην Τέταρτη Διακρατική προσφυγή της Κύπρου εναντίον της Τουρκίας και στην υπόθεση Τιτίνα Λοϊζίδου εναντίον Τουρκίας, ανακοίνωσε σήμερα ο Κυβερνητικός Εκπρόσωπος Κύπρος Χρυσοστομίδης, χαρακτηρίζοντας την κίνηση αυτή ''ιδιαίτερα σημαντική''.

Οπως εξήγησε ο Εκπρόσωπος, η υιοθέτηση αυτή αφορά ειδικά την ευθύνη της Τουρκίας για παραβίαση ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων στα κατεχόμενα και ανέφερε πως η υιοθέτηση των δύο αποφάσεων αφορά υπόθεση εναντίον του Βρετανού Υπουργού Αμυνας και έχει ήδη εκδικαστεί.
http://www.cna.org.cy/news/

Sorry, i couldn't find it in english
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Postby Anglo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:36 am

So it's just for the Greek speakers' benefit then? :D
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:59 am

RAFAELLA wrote:Κ) Εκπρόσωπος - Αγγλικό Εφετείο - ΕΔΑΔ - Διακρατική - Υπόθεση Λοϊζίδου
ΚΥΠΕ - ΛΕΥΚΩΣΙΑ-Κύπρος - 28/6/2005 14:37

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Το αγγλικό Εφετείο υιοθέτησε, για σκοπούς καθοδήγησης του αγγλικού δικαστηρίου, τις αποφάσεις του Ευρωπαϊκού Δικαστηρίου Ανθρωπίνων Δικαιωμάτων στην Τέταρτη Διακρατική προσφυγή της Κύπρου εναντίον της Τουρκίας και στην υπόθεση Τιτίνα Λοϊζίδου εναντίον Τουρκίας, ανακοίνωσε σήμερα ο Κυβερνητικός Εκπρόσωπος Κύπρος Χρυσοστομίδης, χαρακτηρίζοντας την κίνηση αυτή ''ιδιαίτερα σημαντική''.

Οπως εξήγησε ο Εκπρόσωπος, η υιοθέτηση αυτή αφορά ειδικά την ευθύνη της Τουρκίας για παραβίαση ανθρωπίνων δικαιωμάτων στα κατεχόμενα και ανέφερε πως η υιοθέτηση των δύο αποφάσεων αφορά υπόθεση εναντίον του Βρετανού Υπουργού Αμυνας και έχει ήδη εκδικαστεί.
http://www.cna.org.cy/news/

Sorry, i couldn't find it in english


"The British Appeals court, for the purpose of guiding the British Court, adopted the rulings of the European Court of Human rights on the 4th Bi-State appeal of Cyprus against Turkey and the Loizidou case against Turkey, government spokesman Mr. K. Chrysostomides announced today, describing this move as “exceptionally important.”

As the spokesman explained, this adoption particularly concerns the responsibility of Turkey for the violation of human rights in the occupied areas and he reported that the adoption of the two rulings relates to the case against the British foreign Minister, which has already been tried."


PS: Rafaella, It is good to translate something before you throw it uncommented in the forum.
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Postby Anglo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:25 am

Thanks for the translation, Kifeas, my Greek has deserted me since I was a boy.

Not sure about the real implications of this announcement - isn't it just rubber stamping previous announcements. And i don't understand the reference to the "Britsh Minister" - can you clarify?
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Postby RAFAELLA » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:13 pm

Kifeas wrote:PS: Rafaella, It is good to translate something before you throw it uncommented in the forum.


You are right Kifeas. I was in a hurry but I guess that's no excuse :?
Next time I will only post while I'm having my frape break :)
...thanks for the translation :)
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:24 pm

Anglo wrote:Thanks for the translation, Kifeas, my Greek has deserted me since I was a boy.

Not sure about the real implications of this announcement - isn't it just rubber stamping previous announcements. And i don't understand the reference to the "Britsh Minister" - can you clarify?


I Do not know any details regarding the case of the British foreign minister. Most likely it is an unrelated case with Cyprus. However, the two cases relating with Cyprus, Loizidou Vs Turkey and Cyprus Vs Turkey, were officially accepted by the British Appeals Court to constitute a legal findings precedent. As you know, under common law it is possible to site the rulings of previous cases, as a constituent of precedent legal background or framework for other cases.

Now what is the relationship with Cyprus?

The court accepted the rulings of the ECHRs. That means that the findings of those rulings are recognized to constitute a legal basis.

What are the findings of these ECHRs rulings, especially the Loizidou Vs Turkey case?

In the Loizidou case, the ECHRs found out, concluded and ruled -among many other things, on the following.
a.)The TRNC is not a recognized country or State but a subordinate regime to Turkey, which controls the northern part of Cyprus through the presence of her troops there.
b.)The title deeds issued by the RoC Land registry are the only legal documents denoting property ownership rights.
c.)Loizidou and consequently all GC property owners in the north are the only legal owners of the properties abandoned during and after the Turkish invasion.
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Postby Anglo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:30 pm

Interesting, Kifeas, thank you.

But how will enforcement of these rulings take place?
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:42 pm

Anglo wrote:Interesting, Kifeas, thank you.

But how will enforcement of these rulings take place?


As i see it, the options are unlimited. Think of the Orams case for example.
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