Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Of course they are all Turks B25. In the eyes of the nationalists all dogs belong to the same breed. However, is it just peculiar (to say the least) that the little fascist is lecturing Birkibrisli?

I am neither little, nor a fascist, nor giving lectures, one of you were lying.

He claims TCs you claim Turks, not that can give ahoot, but get your lies straight before you spread them.

To me Birk, is just another TC trying to get things his way, but don't worry your little head, we know where you stand.

You missed Bananiot's point all together,B25..He was implying that to the GCs at the time,lining up to witness the massacre,those to be slaughtered were just "Turks",including my cousins,the 3 TC students..

[Viewpoint]

Talisker

Viewpoint, there is only any point in having a discussion if you resist slipping into fantasyland!

Is this attitude really necessary? it doesnt really help constructive debate and only fuels sniddy remarks back, do you want to continue down that route becuase I can give just as good even better than I get. Choice is yours.

C'mon man, this is complete and under historical revisionism of the worst type. How can TCs even consider comparing themselves with the Scots, a truly indigenous people within their own land, a nation that has previously been independent with a millenium or more of cultural, political and monarchic identity which differentiates them from the English? Scots did not steal land with the help of a bullying big brother - exactly what the TCs have done, and which you refuse to acknowledge by hiding behind the most ridiculous fabricated claims and excuses. You throw out unsubstantiated claims, e.g. 'the GCs are the most racist people in Europe'. You need to back this up with quantitative evidence rather than just spouting your opinion.

So then according to you after 450 years are we still not indigenous? Please try harder to understand that we have rights in Cyprus and are on par with Gcs when we talk about being indigenous, but lets get passed that and question how you see the TCs in a united Cyprus under a BBF with political equality structure, if we cannot have what the Scots have then where do you put us? like the Pakistanis in the UK? or the Americans in the USA? or the Australians down under? how do you exactly see TCs when you consider that we have lived apart from GCs for over 46 years.

As for Gcs being the most racists people in the EU I read this somewhere recently and will try to find the article or poll.

And VP, as we heard from Jimski999, some TCs at least are realising that the opportunities available in the illegal north are limited and yes, they have the courage to come south and live within 'your' enemy, the GCs. The sad thing is that the extremist partitionists such as you do the TC youth no favours - you deprive them of opportunity, you fill them with unjustified fears (we all know you don't respect GCs, but you clearly also don't respect basic democratic principles, and this will ultimately be to the detriment of your own people), and you encourage the extinction of the TC identity as the best of your people leave (for the south or elsewhere) to better themselves. Time to get your head out of the sand, VP!

TCs are free to travel all over the world have been doing that for many years now so those that choose to go south can do so if they feel the urge no one is stopping or deprieving them of anything. The facts are that TCs still prefer to stay north than go live in a foreign country like the GC south, as you state we would prefer the extinction as we fell so strongly about the alternative which if you are not a TC you will never understand, we will not capitulate and submit to Gcs demands that reduce our status down to just another minority under GC rule, its either a partnership under the world backed BBF with politicla equality of the 2 states or nothing, time the GC got their heads out of their arse because in 10 years time they will find new generation TCs who share nothing in common with GCs at the other end of the negotaiting table, thats if they even bother to turn up as they dont not really care for Gcs one iota.

[Piratis]

Of course they are all Turks B25. In the eyes of the nationalists all dogs belong to the same breed. However, is it just peculiar (to say the least) that the little fascist is lecturing Birkibrisli?

I am neither little, nor a fascist, nor giving lectures, one of you were lying.

He claims TCs you claim Turks, not that can give ahoot, but get your lies straight before you spread them.

To me Birk, is just another TC trying to get things his way, but don't worry your little head, we know where you stand.

You missed Bananiot's point all together,B25..He was implying that to the GCs at the time,lining up to witness the massacre,those to be slaughtered were just "Turks",including my cousins,the 3 TC students..

And I guess those 500 TCs landed there to have a picnic and not to kill people?

[Oracle]

we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality.

Viewpoint, there is only any point in having a discussion if you resist slipping into fantasyland!

C'mon man, this is complete and under historical revisionism of the worst type. How can TCs even consider comparing themselves with the Scots, a truly indigenous people within their own land, a nation that has previously been independent with a millenium or more of cultural, political and monarchic identity which differentiates them from the English? Scots did not steal land with the help of a bullying big brother - exactly what the TCs have done, and which you refuse to acknowledge by hiding behind the most ridiculous fabricated claims and excuses. You throw out unsubstantiated claims, e.g. 'the GCs are the most racist people in Europe'. You need to back this up with quantitative evidence rather than just spouting your opinion.

Excellent. VP has an obsession with appearing like a Scottish Gentleman ... I think the English kicked him out!

In fact, paradoxically, VP doesn't realise how similar the Turk-TCs are to the English of a few Centuries ago when the English tried ethnic cleansing (Clearings) of Scots from parts of Scotland!

[BirKibrisli]

.. Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime.. (

Have you disowned and repudiated Turkey who slaughtered GCs by the thousands and ethnically cleansed nearly a third of the GC population?

I was just pointing out one of the differences faced by the Jews in Germany and TCs in Cyprus,Oracle...My thoughts about the events of 74 are well known...Turkey was justified in the original intervention. As a guarantor of the independence of the Republic of Cyprus they had the right and duty to come in order to restore Cyprus's independence...They should have done it back in 1963...But,once they had stored the offically agreed government,as stipulated by the 1960 agreements they should have left...By staying they have become invaders...

So then do you disown and repudiate Turkey and demand its immediate and unconditional withdrawal so that trust and bridge-building measures can start, as they did upon the removal of the Nazis?

(BTW ... Turkey did try and invade in 1964 after they set-up excuses by attacking the Constitution. They bombed and shelled my village near Polis, and Napalmed the vicinity.)

The German Jews did not return to Germany the day after the Nazi regime collapsed...They waited for decades to see what bridge-building measures would be put in place first...

I know the incident you are talking about...Again you are only telling half the story...Turkey bombed the koccina area because 500 poorly armed and misguided TC students(who had landed there from Turkey)were under seige by the GCs and in imminent danger of being massacred...3 of my cousins were amongst them...They had said their goodbyes and were awaiting the final GC assault...Having said that,I can imagine how terrfying it must've been for the civilians in the area who would have become casualties...I dont know how true it is,but there were stories at the time of convoys of GC civilians lining up on nearby hills to witness the massacre of the TCs...But tell me Oracle,did you ever stop and think why Turkey would ahve taken such an extreme measure???Did you ever ask people why the bombs fell from the sky??? And what was their explanation...I am truly curious about this point...

I didn't give only half of the story. We were discussing something else and this was an aside. I told you what I knew from experience of the time. The rest is hearsay, and you gave your half of the hearsay.

I do know, now, that Turkey had been planning to divide the island from years before. This was their first major as you say "extreme measure" ... obviously not extreme enough to fulfil their plans, which is why they repeated it in 1974 and succeeded.

As I said Bir ... the facts point to what we see today! Nothing has changed. The Turks-TCs have always oppressed us and have been looking for ways to steal our island ever since they reneged on their deal with Britain. The facts are OBSERVABLE TODAY!

And what I am observing today is your refusal to let any facts spoil your prejudices about the Turks and the TCs...Stop trying to wriggle out...Are you saying that the 500 TC students and their misguided adventure was hearsay??? That there was no GC attack on their enclave? that they were in no physical danger from the GCs??? What are you saying??? That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???For God's sake! when will you let some ray of objectivity seep into that brain of yours???

[Oracle]

.. Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime.. (

Have you disowned and repudiated Turkey who slaughtered GCs by the thousands and ethnically cleansed nearly a third of the GC population?

I was just pointing out one of the differences faced by the Jews in Germany and TCs in Cyprus,Oracle...My thoughts about the events of 74 are well known...Turkey was justified in the original intervention. As a guarantor of the independence of the Republic of Cyprus they had the right and duty to come in order to restore Cyprus's independence...They should have done it back in 1963...But,once they had stored the offically agreed government,as stipulated by the 1960 agreements they should have left...By staying they have become invaders...

So then do you disown and repudiate Turkey and demand its immediate and unconditional withdrawal so that trust and bridge-building measures can start, as they did upon the removal of the Nazis?

(BTW ... Turkey did try and invade in 1964 after they set-up excuses by attacking the Constitution. They bombed and shelled my village near Polis, and Napalmed the vicinity.)

The German Jews did not return to Germany the day after the Nazi regime collapsed...They waited for decades to see what bridge-building measures would be put in place first...

I know the incident you are talking about...Again you are only telling half the story...Turkey bombed the koccina area because 500 poorly armed and misguided TC students(who had landed there from Turkey)were under seige by the GCs and in imminent danger of being massacred...3 of my cousins were amongst them...They had said their goodbyes and were awaiting the final GC assault...Having said that,I can imagine how terrfying it must've been for the civilians in the area who would have become casualties...I dont know how true it is,but there were stories at the time of convoys of GC civilians lining up on nearby hills to witness the massacre of the TCs...But tell me Oracle,did you ever stop and think why Turkey would ahve taken such an extreme measure???Did you ever ask people why the bombs fell from the sky??? And what was their explanation...I am truly curious about this point...

I didn't give only half of the story. We were discussing something else and this was an aside. I told you what I knew from experience of the time. The rest is hearsay, and you gave your half of the hearsay.

I do know, now, that Turkey had been planning to divide the island from years before. This was their first major as you say "extreme measure" ... obviously not extreme enough to fulfil their plans, which is why they repeated it in 1974 and succeeded.

As I said Bir ... the facts point to what we see today! Nothing has changed. The Turks-TCs have always oppressed us and have been looking for ways to steal our island ever since they reneged on their deal with Britain. The facts are OBSERVABLE TODAY!

And what I am observing today is your refusal to let any facts spoil your prejudices about the Turks and the TCs...Stop trying to wriggle out...Are you saying that the 500 TC students and their misguided adventure was hearsay??? That there was no GC attack on their enclave? that they were in no physical danger from the GCs??? What are you saying??? That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???For God's sake! when will you let some ray of objectivity seep into that brain of yours???

I don't know what makes a foreign country decide to go and invade a neighbouring sovereign country when they have some internal disputes.

I don't know, because my country has not invaded another country.

If you think it's acceptable of Turkey to interfere every time there is an internal problem here, then you have no right to call yourself a Cypriot as your loyalty is not to Cyprus but to Turkey ... the foreign country!

[Piratis]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

Bir, Turkey had a plan for the partition of Cyprus since the 50s. They didn't just wake up on morning ...

I don't know the exact facts of that story, but my best guess is that Turkey dropped those 500 people there so later she could come to "save" them by killing innocent GCs. 500 people would not move from Turkey to Cyprus without the knowledge of the Turkish army.

[Talisker]

So then according to you after 450 years are we still not indigenous? Please try harder to understand that we have rights in Cyprus and are on par with Gcs when we talk about being indigenous, but lets get passed that and question how you see the TCs in a united Cyprus under a BBF with political equality structure, if we cannot have what the Scots have then where do you put us? like the Pakistanis in the UK? or the Americans in the USA? or the Australians down under? how do you exactly see TCs when you consider that we have lived apart from GCs for over 46 years.

Sorry VP, I don't understand your point regarding Pakistanis, Americans and Australians. But what I would say that any Pakistani entitled to vote in the UK has exactly the same 'power' or ability to influence social and political change here as I have, and that is because of the 'one man one vote' system. As an indigenous Brit, do I resent that? No. Should the UK Pakistani resent that? No way. If UK society functioned perfectly (and I don't pretend it does, although it ain't so bad.....) then the Pakistani would not be voting exclusively for 'Pakistani-beneficial issues', in the same way as I have never voted for issues or policies that I would consider to be for the benefit of myself and other 'indigenous' Brits at the expense of minorities.

In a united Cyprus would you only ever vote for a TC just because they are a TC? I would hope that that blind mentality would disappear and that all Cypriots would vote for the best progressive policies for the benefit of all Cypriots, and that the ethnic identity of the candidate would not be an issue.

As for Gcs being the most racists people in the EU I read this somewhere recently and will try to find the article or poll.

I look forward to you bringing forward the evidence.

TCs are free to travel all over the world have been doing that for many years now so those that choose to go south can do so if they feel the urge no one is stopping or deprieving them of anything. The facts are that TCs still prefer to stay north than go live in a foreign country like the GC south, as you state we would prefer the extinction as we fell so strongly about the alternative which if you are not a TC you will never understand, we will not capitulate and submit to Gcs demands that reduce our status down to just another minority under GC rule, its either a partnership under the world backed BBF with politicla equality of the 2 states or nothing, time the GC got their heads out of their arse because in 10 years time they will find new generation TCs who share nothing in common with GCs at the other end of the negotaiting table, thats if they even bother to turn up as they dont not really care for Gcs one iota.

History tells us the bravest and the best leave when times are hard, and after 35 years of embargoes and isolation there must have been many of those TCs who have already left. Now it is easy for them to move to the south I predict many more will do so. This will place the north in even more of a downward spiral, further economic stagnation, further dilution of the best TCs, further closing of opportunities for the TC youth. You may voice your personal opinion that TCs would prefer extinction to numerical domination by GCs, but I'll bet that not too many TC teenagers or young parents would - because they will realise the opportunities they are missing out on. Forget 'domination' by GCs - do you want to be a free 21st century European - because plenty would?

[Get Real!]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

That's exactly what your great grand-dog Lala Pasha did, except he didn't have Napalm so he butchered the Cypriots instead!

For God's sake! when will you let some ray of objectivity seep into that brain of yours???

Here's a ray of objectivity for you...

Don't come to Cyprus!

[BirKibrisli]

You are making a big mistake approaching this issue from political and economic point of view,Talisker...The reasons why the average Tc will not trust the mechanism of ROC democracy is emotional...And the key to that is found in the TC experience during the dark years of 1960 to 74...

If the GCs are not willing to come to terms with this period,if they keep sweeping it under the carpet,if they keep addressing Cyprus problem simply as one side trying to rob the other of property and illegal gains,we will NEVER get anywhere...This is the conclusion I have come to after long and careful consideration...The GC are in total denial as to the root cause of the TC mistrust...They can only see the pain and sufering of their own after 74,turning a blind eye to the TC pain and suffering before that time...
Please try to get them to take a hard look at themselves,find the courage to admit their part in this mess,then we might get somewhere...
Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime..They have acknowledged the wrongs done,provided compensation,and swore never such attrocities would take place...What steps has the ROC taken to foster trust and understanding between the communities? What steps to ease the fear and mistrust?The person who was the archenemy,the symbol for oppression for the TCs (for his role in the Akritas plan etc) was President of the ROC for over 5 years...What message do you think that gave to the TCs...???? No amount of logical or economical or political appeal or coersion will equal one simple emotional appeal backed by tangible measures to increase the respect and trust between communities...Only then will the TCs consider walking in the sun without a hat and sunscreen...This is not what I want,but it is what I see. Time for all to get out of their comfortable bunkers and face the realities in Cyprus...Throwing insults like "cowards,thieves,whatever..." will only work to drive the TCs further away... Trying to goad or shame the TCs to give up what they see is their hard won protection of Turkey will only backfire...I am suprised people intelligent enough to use this forum cannot see this simple fact...

BirKibrisli, many thanks for your very honest view on the issues we are discussing. I mean no disrespect in this response whatsoever, but Birkibrisli I'm afraid your views are those of an old man, a man who looks backwards to the times when yes, there was conflict and killing, and not forwards (after all, with age should come wisdom!). And, you know, maybe your views are understandable for your generation, but times have moved on, and I really feel that you need to look ahead for the best opportunities for future TC generations. Will this be in the isolated and illegal north under the overwhelming influence of Turkey (itself politically isolated from Europe), or with their fellow Cypriots within the European Union with all the advantages, including security, that would bring?

I am 58 years old,Talisker...That hardly makes me an old man!!!

But even if I was 90,how would that negate my feelings,thoughts,experiences???

People keep asking for eye witness accounts...When we,who have lived through most of the worst,talk about it,it becomes rumblings of an old man!!! I am only trying to point out why the TCs feel the way they do,and where to look for the answers...People can take it or leave it...This is for sure: unless we deal with the past events,which historically speaking is really very recent (50 years is nothing in historical terms) we will not find the necessary will,motivation and desire to move on...Trying to belittle or shame the TCs into coming to the party will not work..I am telling you what will,but noone is listening..Oh well,at least I tried...