Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

We do not want to be like the Pakistanis in the UK....or the Indians...we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration.....

You racist scumbag. You are the germ-ridden spit inside the bagpipes .... that's as close as you'll get to being anything like the Scots.

[Talisker]

Now do you understand how strongly we feel that we are willing to forgo all the above if it means we are forced into minority status in a GC state? Why are you being so blind and show lack of understanding towards our concerns and needs?

You might consider me blind but I think you're being short-sighted to miss out on the opportunities reunification within a free, one man-one vote democracy will bring to future generations of TCs. Integrate and prosper within the security of an established EU state - doesn't sound so bad to me!

Forget this crap about being in a minority - this is only one part of your identity. If you are a Cypriot first (as GCs should also be), Turk second, then you can benefit alongside your fellow Cypriots.

This is like asking me to allow the GCs to run the country single handed allowing them to do as they wish, democracy can be manipulated and we do not want to end up in the corridors of ECHR every time we want planning permission or want to buy land....dont ask us to reduce ourselves to an ineffective group of people in our own country. GCs are the most racist in the EU and we would be clearly exposed to their expertise in the manipulation of democracy to the detrement of those with Turkish Cypriot origins. We do not want to be like the Pakistanis in the UK....or the Indians...we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality, both sides can also benefit from such a solution and we are willing to hold out for such a development of continue on as we are which is far better than some of the countries which entered the EU with the GC south.

Most mature thinkers living in a democracy consider which of the political parties have the best policies on a number of issues - economy, healthcare, education, foreign policy, etc, etc and the idea is to elect a government you think would improve life for yourself, your family, the poor, the sick, and improve future prospects for all. However, you reject these ideas, insisting on living your disadvantaged, isolated, running-scared life on the basis of a historical dispute which could and should be solved with appropriate goodwill from both sides. But this must be fair, and 'owner's keeper's' may work in the playground but not in the international political arena. Your attitude is sad, and indicates you have no real understanding of life in a free democracy. There can be no pride in being a resident of the TRNC - the illegal pseudostate has no recognition. Compare this with the kudos you will receive for acting responsibly for the good of all Cypriots (and not your own selfish needs for a particular subset within this) within a reunified Cyprus, and the benefits for all that will accrue as a result.

[Viewpoint]

Now do you understand how strongly we feel that we are willing to forgo all the above if it means we are forced into minority status in a GC state? Why are you being so blind and show lack of understanding towards our concerns and needs?

You might consider me blind but I think you're being short-sighted to miss out on the opportunities reunification within a free, one man-one vote democracy will bring to future generations of TCs. Integrate and prosper within the security of an established EU state - doesn't sound so bad to me!

Forget this crap about being in a minority - this is only one part of your identity. If you are a Cypriot first (as GCs should also be), Turk second, then you can benefit alongside your fellow Cypriots.

This is like asking me to allow the GCs to run the country single handed allowing them to do as they wish, democracy can be manipulated and we do not want to end up in the corridors of ECHR every time we want planning permission or want to buy land....dont ask us to reduce ourselves to an ineffective group of people in our own country. GCs are the most racist in the EU and we would be clearly exposed to their expertise in the manipulation of democracy to the detrement of those with Turkish Cypriot origins. We do not want to be like the Pakistanis in the UK....or the Indians...we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality, both sides can also benefit from such a solution and we are willing to hold out for such a development of continue on as we are which is far better than some of the countries which entered the EU with the GC south.

Most mature thinkers living in a democracy consider which of the political parties have the best policies on a number of issues - economy, healthcare, education, foreign policy, etc, etc and the idea is to elect a government you think would improve life for yourself, your family, the poor, the sick, and improve future prospects for all. However, you reject these ideas, insisting on living your disadvantaged, isolated, running-scared life on the basis of a historical dispute which could and should be solved with appropriate goodwill from both sides. But this must be fair, and 'owner's keeper's' may work in the playground but not in the international political arena. Your attitude is sad, and indicates you have no real understanding of life in a free democracy. There can be no pride in being a resident of the TRNC - the illegal pseudostate has no recognition. Compare this with the kudos you will receive for acting responsibly for the good of all Cypriots (and not your own selfish needs for a particular subset within this) within a reunified Cyprus, and the benefits for all that will accrue as a result.

Isnt the UK a free democracy? having lived there for over 30 years and in the TRNC which under the current isolation is a like it or not a democracy where we have elected leaders and all the other organs necessary to run the country, recognition is a totally different matter all together you should not confuse the 2 and understand that the current divide and birth of the TRNC was a direct result of both GC and TC actions...so everything is not one sided which you seem to avoid like the plague. As a Brit can you kind point a few of the GC wrongs to show that you are not one sided and very biased.

Believe it or not we are proud residents of the TRNC with all its faults and only something better can entice us to move away from the current situation towards unification, but if offered a structure whereby GCs cannot push to one side the TCs contibution I would accept it at a heart beat. The only problem is there is absolutely no trust between the 2 communities and no sign that our differencies are being bridged (goodwill you talk about).

The advantages you try to sell us are still not enough when you ask in return that we give up the TRNC and our community rights reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs exposed to their antics and expert democracy manipulations.

[Talisker]

Now do you understand how strongly we feel that we are willing to forgo all the above if it means we are forced into minority status in a GC state? Why are you being so blind and show lack of understanding towards our concerns and needs?

You might consider me blind but I think you're being short-sighted to miss out on the opportunities reunification within a free, one man-one vote democracy will bring to future generations of TCs. Integrate and prosper within the security of an established EU state - doesn't sound so bad to me!

Forget this crap about being in a minority - this is only one part of your identity. If you are a Cypriot first (as GCs should also be), Turk second, then you can benefit alongside your fellow Cypriots.

This is like asking me to allow the GCs to run the country single handed allowing them to do as they wish, democracy can be manipulated and we do not want to end up in the corridors of ECHR every time we want planning permission or want to buy land....dont ask us to reduce ourselves to an ineffective group of people in our own country. GCs are the most racist in the EU and we would be clearly exposed to their expertise in the manipulation of democracy to the detrement of those with Turkish Cypriot origins. We do not want to be like the Pakistanis in the UK....or the Indians...we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality, both sides can also benefit from such a solution and we are willing to hold out for such a development of continue on as we are which is far better than some of the countries which entered the EU with the GC south.

Most mature thinkers living in a democracy consider which of the political parties have the best policies on a number of issues - economy, healthcare, education, foreign policy, etc, etc and the idea is to elect a government you think would improve life for yourself, your family, the poor, the sick, and improve future prospects for all. However, you reject these ideas, insisting on living your disadvantaged, isolated, running-scared life on the basis of a historical dispute which could and should be solved with appropriate goodwill from both sides. But this must be fair, and 'owner's keeper's' may work in the playground but not in the international political arena. Your attitude is sad, and indicates you have no real understanding of life in a free democracy. There can be no pride in being a resident of the TRNC - the illegal pseudostate has no recognition. Compare this with the kudos you will receive for acting responsibly for the good of all Cypriots (and not your own selfish needs for a particular subset within this) within a reunified Cyprus, and the benefits for all that will accrue as a result.

Isnt the UK a free democracy? having lived there for over 30 years and in the TRNC which under the current isolation is a like it or not a democracy where we have elected leaders and all the other organs necessary to run the country, recognition is a totally different matter all together you should not confuse the 2 and understand that the current divide and birth of the TRNC was a direct result of both GC and TC actions...so everything is not one sided which you seem to avoid like the plague. As a Brit can you kind point a few of the GC wrongs to show that you are not one sided and very biased.

Believe it or not we are proud residents of the TRNC with all its faults and only something better can entice us to move away from the current situation towards unification, but if offered a structure whereby GCs cannot push to one side the TCs contibution I would accept it at a heart beat. The only problem is there is absolutely no trust between the 2 communities and no sign that our differencies are being bridged (goodwill you talk about).

The advantages you try to sell us are still not enough when you ask in return that we give up the TRNC and our community rights reduced to minority status in a GC state run by GCs exposed to their antics and expert democracy manipulations.

As a Brit I don't believe I am particularly biased towards one side or the other - however, I am biased towards the concepts of freedom and democracy, respect for and obeyance of national and international laws, and religious and cultural tolerance. Which 'side' do you really think has the better record on these matters?

Yes, I think GCs made major mistakes in the past - I don't believe they've always had the wisest leaders (who has?), and some extremists in that community undoubtedly carried out atrocities against TCs (sometimes but presumably not always following provocation - I'm not an expert on this - and I'm not really interested in picking through the bones of individual historical incidents as this inevitably leads to tit for tat accusations as seen all too often on CF). But, in the grand scheme of things, and with due respect paid to those who suffered, these events from the past should not dominate plans for the future.

Security for TCs within a reunited Cyprus will come from Cyprus becoming a nation of Cypriots and not 'GCs' and 'TCs'. TCs will be protected by the laws of the land (and EU) and by international scrutiny.

So you are clear where I stand, I do not believe TCs should have special minority privileges within a reunited Cyprus. Just to give you an example of why, here in the UK, despite a bloody history between protestants and catholics, both hundreds of years ago, e.g. in Tudor times, and more recently, e.g. Northern Ireland, the minority, i.e. the catholics, are afforded no special 'protective' privileges. Do you know that there has never been a catholic prime minister? Despite this, over 5 million catholics live in the UK. To me, that is a sign of a mature, functioning democracy - of course, it is not perfect, but being a democracy there is an opportunity to debate how improvement can occur, and within this minorities, such as catholics, are 'naturally' and not 'artificially' protected within the constitution and laws of the land. I'm disappointed that if you have lived in the UK for 30 years, as you claim, you do not have greater respect for, and faith in, democracy, law and tolerance, and would therefore aspire to be part of similar in Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Talisker

As a Brit I don't believe I am particularly biased towards one side or the other - however, I am biased towards the concepts of freedom and democracy, respect for and obeyance of national and international laws, and religious and cultural tolerance. Which 'side' do you really think has the better record on these matters?

I to support the same principles and you have to understand that its not the principles that are being questioned here but who will apply them, we do not trust the GCs and they do nto trust us, here in lays the problem we are unable to solve.

Yes, I think GCs made major mistakes in the past - I don't believe they've always had the wisest leaders (who has?), and some extremists in that community undoubtedly carried out atrocities against TCs (sometimes but presumably not always following provocation - I'm not an expert on this - and I'm not really interested in picking through the bones of individual historical incidents as this inevitably leads to tit for tat accusations as seen all too often on CF). But, in the grand scheme of things, and with due respect paid to those who suffered, these events from the past should not dominate plans for the future.

If you do not understand the past then how do you expect to understand the fears and concerns going forward? Its is this understanding that moulds how we approach and try to resolve issues, its is from the past that both sides do not trust each other one iota and unless there are concrete steps to expell these concerns the division will remain as is.

Security for TCs within a reunited Cyprus will come from Cyprus becoming a nation of Cypriots and not 'GCs' and 'TCs'. TCs will be protected by the laws of the land (and EU) and by international scrutiny.

Who will apply the law of the land? and how will the internation scrutiny work? it is these questions that need to be answered, if GC policemen deal with a TC incident, can you guarantee they will not be racist or even take action, its even happening today when TCs suffer incidents in the south they are ridiciuled and not taken seriously, who will monitor this and how will the punishment procedures work, will it be again GCs judging GCs?

So you are clear where I stand, I do not believe TCs should have special minority privileges within a reunited Cyprus. Just to give you an example of why, here in the UK, despite a bloody history between protestants and catholics, both hundreds of years ago, e.g. in Tudor times, and more recently, e.g. Northern Ireland, the minority, i.e. the catholics, are afforded no special 'protective' privileges. Do you know that there has never been a catholic prime minister? Despite this, over 5 million catholics live in the UK. To me, that is a sign of a mature, functioning democracy - of course, it is not perfect, but being a democracy there is an opportunity to debate how improvement can occur, and within this minorities, such as catholics, are 'naturally' and not 'artificially' protected within the constitution and laws of the land. I'm disappointed that if you have lived in the UK for 30 years, as you claim, you do not have greater respect for, and faith in, democracy, law and tolerance, and would therefore aspire to be part of similar in Cyprus.

Can you tell the difference between a catholic and protestant by their name? Britain is more developement on these issues than many other countries and with GCs being the most racist people in the EU you must understand our dialema in just taking a leap of faith all in the name of democracy law and tolerane, these principles are find and I support them 100% if the hands of people like the Brits but sorry not the GCs not on day 1 we will never allow that to happen and need transition periods allowing for time to see if they can in fact fairly administer human right and democracy when they are dealing with TCs who can be identified in a matter of seconds unlike catholics.

[Acikgoz]

When GC monuments are raised to testify to the murder of TCs, rather than EOKA, will the maturity needed to start the kind of transformation be expected.

As long as anti-Turkish chants are condoned by the church, government, sports clubs and most civil societies in RoC don't even try to compare.

Weakest argument I've heard for a long time. First GCs find the courage to stop persecuting TCs.

[Oracle]

The TCs have always oppressed and enslaved the GCs. For over 400 years in one form or another. This is yet another form of oppression and enslavement and removal of GC rights. This occupation of GC properties and racist segregation with the aid of 43,000 Turkish troops.

Nothing has changed. This is how they have always been and we have the living proof to this day! This is what recent exponents to the Cyprus Problem have as their evidence. The atrocity which is committed right now upon GCs by the tyrannous minority of TCs.

This is what TCs have always done to GCs and they hope that over time they can cover up their crimes with words and pleading "weakness" at being a minority. Crap. They are the paradigm of a tyrannous Nazi-simulating minority.

[Talisker]

Talisker

As a Brit I don't believe I am particularly biased towards one side or the other - however, I am biased towards the concepts of freedom and democracy, respect for and obeyance of national and international laws, and religious and cultural tolerance. Which 'side' do you really think has the better record on these matters?

I to support the same principles and you have to understand that its not the principles that are being questioned here but who will apply them, we do not trust the GCs and they do nto trust us, here in lays the problem we are unable to solve.

Yes, I think GCs made major mistakes in the past - I don't believe they've always had the wisest leaders (who has?), and some extremists in that community undoubtedly carried out atrocities against TCs (sometimes but presumably not always following provocation - I'm not an expert on this - and I'm not really interested in picking through the bones of individual historical incidents as this inevitably leads to tit for tat accusations as seen all too often on CF). But, in the grand scheme of things, and with due respect paid to those who suffered, these events from the past should not dominate plans for the future.

If you do not understand the past then how do you expect to understand the fears and concerns going forward? Its is this understanding that moulds how we approach and try to resolve issues, its is from the past that both sides do not trust each other one iota and unless there are concrete steps to expell these concerns the division will remain as is.

Security for TCs within a reunited Cyprus will come from Cyprus becoming a nation of Cypriots and not 'GCs' and 'TCs'. TCs will be protected by the laws of the land (and EU) and by international scrutiny.

Who will apply the law of the land? and how will the internation scrutiny work? it is these questions that need to be answered, if GC policemen deal with a TC incident, can you guarantee they will not be racist or even take action, its even happening today when TCs suffer incidents in the south they are ridiciuled and not taken seriously, who will monitor this and how will the punishment procedures work, will it be again GCs judging GCs?

So you are clear where I stand, I do not believe TCs should have special minority privileges within a reunited Cyprus. Just to give you an example of why, here in the UK, despite a bloody history between protestants and catholics, both hundreds of years ago, e.g. in Tudor times, and more recently, e.g. Northern Ireland, the minority, i.e. the catholics, are afforded no special 'protective' privileges. Do you know that there has never been a catholic prime minister? Despite this, over 5 million catholics live in the UK. To me, that is a sign of a mature, functioning democracy - of course, it is not perfect, but being a democracy there is an opportunity to debate how improvement can occur, and within this minorities, such as catholics, are 'naturally' and not 'artificially' protected within the constitution and laws of the land. I'm disappointed that if you have lived in the UK for 30 years, as you claim, you do not have greater respect for, and faith in, democracy, law and tolerance, and would therefore aspire to be part of similar in Cyprus.

Can you tell the difference between a catholic and protestant by their name? Britain is more developement on these issues than many other countries and with GCs being the most racist people in the EU you must understand our dialema in just taking a leap of faith all in the name of democracy law and tolerane, these principles are find and I support them 100% if the hands of people like the Brits but sorry not the GCs not on day 1 we will never allow that to happen and need transition periods allowing for time to see if they can in fact fairly administer human right and democracy when they are dealing with TCs who can be identified in a matter of seconds unlike catholics.

I don't buy your argument - it's the same old thing, 'it's much worse for us than for others, and therefore we must be treated differently'. Even today on another thread we've seen your rejection of human rights and democracy.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27762

Everyone can see your transparent attempt to maintain the illegal, immoral TRNC through continually taking the role of 'victim'.
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21345

Even within the last ten years there were sectarian shootings in Belfast and Londonderry, and yet the will is for peace and democracy, and everyone living within the law equally. Yes, that's courageous VP, after the recent history there. The only reason I can see for TC intransigence is a desire to hold on to their ill-gotten gains. The 'victim' card doesn't wash.

[Get Real!]

When GC monuments are raised to testify to the murder of TCs, rather than EOKA, will the maturity needed to start the kind of transformation be expected.

As long as anti-Turkish chants are condoned by the church, government, sports clubs and most civil societies in RoC don't even try to compare.

Weakest argument I've heard for a long time. First GCs find the courage to stop persecuting TCs.

Any which way you look at it the conclusion is always the same… Ottoman/Turkish settlers should’ve never come here in the first place!

[Talisker]

When GC monuments are raised to testify to the murder of TCs, rather than EOKA, will the maturity needed to start the kind of transformation be expected.

As long as anti-Turkish chants are condoned by the church, government, sports clubs and most civil societies in RoC don't even try to compare.

Weakest argument I've heard for a long time. First GCs find the courage to stop persecuting TCs.

You haven't made much of an attempt to counter it! Another 'victim'.