Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

In order to save Greece from imploding ....

Don't worry your little head. The Greeks have all they need, simply because ...

You like my plan?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to save Greece from imploding, I have come up with my very own Austerity package as a gesture of good will from the Republic of Cyprus towards the Republic of Greece!

Here is my brilliant plan....

Paphitis' Austerity Package for Greece!

1. The Republic of Cyprus is to borrow 50 Billion Euros from the World Bank and buy the islands of Crete and Rhodes.

2. Crete to be annexed by the Republic of Cyprus as soon as the funds are transferred to the Republic of Greece.

3. Rhodes to be handed over to the TCs, where they will be repatriated to create their own Turkish Cypriot republic.

4. The Republic of Cyprus regains control of the occupied areas.

5. Greeks from Rhodes to be repatriated to the Republic of Cyprus or Crete(which will become a province of Cyprus!)

Problem solved!

NOPE!

I think it stinks.

Concentrate on getting back all we have lost. Not losing more at the first sign of a problem!

As I said before, it wouldn't come as a surprise if this doesn't precipitate one of those punctuated revolutions Greeks do best. Which would invariably help everyone else who has been suffering with this downturn for much longer, now out of their minds with their years of suffering. The Greeks have only just begun! Everyone is looking to them to signify the turnaround, that's all.

Yep! The Greeks sure as hell know all about revolutions.

The minute the Greek Government announces its austerity package, the Greek Unions and Greeks take to the streets!

As for my brilliant plan, just think of it as the sibling helping out its old, decrepit, broke and destitute mother!

BTW, this economic downturn is not world wide. Some countries like Cyprus and Australia are booming!

[SKI-preo]

I like your plan. Maybe we can even buy a little rocky outcrop for the carpet baggers.As long as Kyrenia is available for us to go home.

[Talisker]

The legacy of the German and Italian invasions live on to this day in Greece, both in the hearts and minds of Greeks, and in the backwardness of Greece relative those more industrialised countries who for no good reason attacked and virtually destroyed not just a defenseless country, but an innocent social fabric too.

The German* political establishment knows well that the meager wealth transfers received by Greece through EU mechanisms are the minimum price to be paid to keep Greece pliant and not bellicose. The dislocation and trauma of second world war, which Greece neither sought, nor could possibly have hoped to benefit from, created the circumstances for the uncontrollable political forces within Greece ever since, forces easily exploited by outsiders for their own benefit, and to such detriment to the Greeks. It took the stupidity of the junta to lay bare the absurdity of the NATO alliance for the west Germans who in their extreme vulnerability on the northern plains of Europe realised that it had gone too far, and that Greece had to be brought back into the fold - for their own sake, and not for Greece's. It still took another big scare - Andreas Pappandreou, who showed them that Greece could easily be a Cuba in the Med. - for them to really cotton on that a lot more hinged on Greece than they supposed, and that's when the bribes really started flowing.

So don't be confused about the rantings of a few populist German politicians and a tabloid rag. The Germans know on which side their bread is buttered.

As for that photo, a picture really does tell a thousand words. There is not a Greek alive who has not seen it, and is not filled with revulsion at it. "Den xehnw" is not a sentiment invented for propaganda since 1974...the image of that vile flag flying above those ancient ruins are one of the many reasons that there is a sliver of insolence within Greeks for foreign might, and for foreigners in general. Despite the outcome, they weren't scared of the Germans or of the Italians in the 1940's, and they sure as hell are not scared today.

* Ditto for the Italians, who knew that there was no alternative to finally ceding the Dodecanese

Great post Epiktitos, thanks for that. Agree completely about the WW2 photograph - an absolutely shocking image given that the Parthenon is the archetypal icon for Greece and therefore for the cradle of democracy.

I saw a debate on TV recently here in the UK about the current Greek financial situation and was incensed by the attitude of a hedgefund manager who clearly saw the vulnerability of Greece to market forces as an opportunity to make a quick buck, and that Greece deserved everything it got. I just hope that Greece is given a fair chance to sort out its economy. I posted the article not to gloat at the current position in which Greece finds itself (as some seem to think!), but to point out the attitudes of some (hopefully a minority) Germans. These idiot politicians seem to have no regard for history, and appear completely insensitive to the role of their own nation in Greece's problems and, as you described so well, national psyche.

[Paphitis]

The legacy of the German and Italian invasions live on to this day in Greece, both in the hearts and minds of Greeks, and in the backwardness of Greece relative those more industrialised countries who for no good reason attacked and virtually destroyed not just a defenseless country, but an innocent social fabric too.

The German* political establishment knows well that the meager wealth transfers received by Greece through EU mechanisms are the minimum price to be paid to keep Greece pliant and not bellicose. The dislocation and trauma of second world war, which Greece neither sought, nor could possibly have hoped to benefit from, created the circumstances for the uncontrollable political forces within Greece ever since, forces easily exploited by outsiders for their own benefit, and to such detriment to the Greeks. It took the stupidity of the junta to lay bare the absurdity of the NATO alliance for the west Germans who in their extreme vulnerability on the northern plains of Europe realised that it had gone too far, and that Greece had to be brought back into the fold - for their own sake, and not for Greece's. It still took another big scare - Andreas Pappandreou, who showed them that Greece could easily be a Cuba in the Med. - for them to really cotton on that a lot more hinged on Greece than they supposed, and that's when the bribes really started flowing.

So don't be confused about the rantings of a few populist German politicians and a tabloid rag. The Germans know on which side their bread is buttered.

As for that photo, a picture really does tell a thousand words. There is not a Greek alive who has not seen it, and is not filled with revulsion at it. "Den xehnw" is not a sentiment invented for propaganda since 1974...the image of that vile flag flying above those ancient ruins are one of the many reasons that there is a sliver of insolence within Greeks for foreign might, and for foreigners in general. Despite the outcome, they weren't scared of the Germans or of the Italians in the 1940's, and they sure as hell are not scared today.

* Ditto for the Italians, who knew that there was no alternative to finally ceding the Dodecanese

Great post Epiktitos, thanks for that. Agree completely about the WW2 photograph - an absolutely shocking image given that the Parthenon is the archetypal icon for Greece and therefore for the cradle of democracy.

I saw a debate on TV recently here in the UK about the current Greek financial situation and was incensed by the attitude of a hedgefund manager who clearly saw the vulnerability of Greece to market forces as an opportunity to make a quick buck, and that Greece deserved everything it got. I just hope that Greece is given a fair chance to sort out its economy. I posted the article not to gloat at the current position in which Greece finds itself (as some seem to think!), but to point out the attitudes of some (hopefully a minority) Germans. These idiot politicians seem to have no regard for history, and appear completely insensitive to the role of their own nation in Greece's problems and, as you described so well, national psyche.

Talisker, thank you for you interesting thread. My apologies for not treating the thread with the respect it deserves.

I believe it is a little unfair to expect Germany, or any other EU nation for that matter, to pick up the tab of Greece's financial mismanagement. Germany's response, I believe is very much tongue in cheek, probably to highlight the ludicrous expectations that it should bail Greece out of this mess. Greece needs to work things out by itself, and the Greek Government needs to completely overhaul its tax system and address the issue of rampant corruption within the tax office, public sector and tax evasion. This, along with economic mismanagement from the previous administration has finally brought the country to its knees. Just because the previous administration mismanaged the economy, and just because Greeks just don't want to pay their due taxes to the state, does not mean that the rich countries of the EU, such as Germany should come in and save the day! This financial crisis, could indeed be Greece's best opportunity to completely overhaul the entire economy, and stamp out corruption and tax evasion. This is basically the crux of the situation, and Greece will need to address these issues.

Greece has even stated that Germany has an obligation as a result of its invasion and occupation in WW11. Well, this to me just doesn't make any sense, and only Greeks, who don't want to face the truth, or accept responsibility for their own shortcomings, can could come up with such an insane assertion. This Greek assertion would also mean that a country like Germany would be liable for many other nations who may experience a financial crisis in the future. Just imagine if Russia, Israel, France, or even Great Britain came up with such a notion. Since when should Germany be liable for other countries as a result of WW11, especially since Germany already had paid a very hefty price and paid compensation? Let us not forget that Italy was forced to cede control of the Dodecanese Islands to Greece as compensation for its invasion of Greece.

It is much better for Greece to implement its Austerity package. It will need to increase taxes, cut spending on Defense, Education, Health, infrastructure, and even sell off public utilities and state airlines. Public servants will have a small pay cut, and pensions will be frozen for a period. There is no other way, and these measures will hurt the people. That's just the way it is.

The Austerity package should see Greece gradually crawl out of this mess. But what gets me is the fact that the Greek people know full well that their country is on the verge of bankruptcy, and yet, the minute the Austerity package is announced, trade unions and citizens take to the streets and riot. It is as if many of them couldn't care less that the country is in dire trouble, and are protesting against the expenditure cuts, pay cuts and tax increases!! This is rather odd.

So if some Greeks are unwilling to batten the hatches, and ride this storm out, just like many other countries such as the US are as we speak, and just like every nation has done from time to time in the past, then why should Germany come up with the cash? Perhaps you might believe it is obligated as an EU member. But I would presume that German tax payers would much rather for Germany to withdraw from the EU and also withdraw from the Euro-zone, than be viewed by the PIGS as a cash cow and as an easy solution for their financial woes.

I believe, the EU is now at the crossroads! Thanks to Greece!

(And by extension, just like Greece screwed Cyprus in the past - it could be the case that Greece will screw the EU, and by extension screw Cyprus once again! Way to go!!!!! )

[turkkan]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... risis.html
Germans tell Greeks to rise earlier and work harder to avoid financial crisis
A German tabloid has advised Greeks to adopt a more Germanic work ethic – by rising earlier and working harder – in order to solve the country's financial crisis.

Published: 7:00PM GMT 05 Mar 2010
Comments 16 | Comment on this article

Newspaper claimed that Germany sends thousands of tourists and money aplenty to Greece Photo: Alamy
On Thursday, two German politicians told their Greek counterparts that the country should sell off its assets – art, historic buildings and islands – before accepting international aid.
George Papandreou, the Greek prime minister, was dispatched abroad, to seek the help of European leaders including Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, in addressing the country's mounting debt.

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But Germany's Bild tabloid had another suggestion, calling on Greek citizens to adopt a more Germanic work ethic in an open letter to Mr Papandreou.
Dear Mr Prime Minister,
If you read this print, you’ve entered a country completely different from yours. You’re in Germany.
* Here, people work until they are 67. There is no longer a 14-month salary for civil servants.
* Here, nobody needs to pay a €1,000 bribe to get a hospital bed in time.
* And we don’t pay pensions for the General’s daughters who sadly can’t find husbands.
* In this country, the petrol stations have cash registers, the taxi drivers give receipts and farmers don’t swindle EU subsidies with millions of olive trees that don’t exist.
Germany also has high debts - but we can meet them.
* That’s because we get up reasonably early and work all day. Becuase in good times we always spare a thought for the bad times. Becuase we have good firms whose products are in demand around the world.
Dear Mr Prime Minister, today you are in the country that sends umpteen-thousand of tourists and money aplenty to Greece.
We want to be friends with the Greeks. That’s why since joining the euro, Germany has given your country €50bn.
For this reason, we are writing to you,
Yours,
Bild Editorial
PS In case you want to write back, we have enclosed a stamped addressed envelope. Of course, we want to help you to save..

[Talisker]

The legacy of the German and Italian invasions live on to this day in Greece, both in the hearts and minds of Greeks, and in the backwardness of Greece relative those more industrialised countries who for no good reason attacked and virtually destroyed not just a defenseless country, but an innocent social fabric too.

The German* political establishment knows well that the meager wealth transfers received by Greece through EU mechanisms are the minimum price to be paid to keep Greece pliant and not bellicose. The dislocation and trauma of second world war, which Greece neither sought, nor could possibly have hoped to benefit from, created the circumstances for the uncontrollable political forces within Greece ever since, forces easily exploited by outsiders for their own benefit, and to such detriment to the Greeks. It took the stupidity of the junta to lay bare the absurdity of the NATO alliance for the west Germans who in their extreme vulnerability on the northern plains of Europe realised that it had gone too far, and that Greece had to be brought back into the fold - for their own sake, and not for Greece's. It still took another big scare - Andreas Pappandreou, who showed them that Greece could easily be a Cuba in the Med. - for them to really cotton on that a lot more hinged on Greece than they supposed, and that's when the bribes really started flowing.

So don't be confused about the rantings of a few populist German politicians and a tabloid rag. The Germans know on which side their bread is buttered.

As for that photo, a picture really does tell a thousand words. There is not a Greek alive who has not seen it, and is not filled with revulsion at it. "Den xehnw" is not a sentiment invented for propaganda since 1974...the image of that vile flag flying above those ancient ruins are one of the many reasons that there is a sliver of insolence within Greeks for foreign might, and for foreigners in general. Despite the outcome, they weren't scared of the Germans or of the Italians in the 1940's, and they sure as hell are not scared today.

* Ditto for the Italians, who knew that there was no alternative to finally ceding the Dodecanese

Great post Epiktitos, thanks for that. Agree completely about the WW2 photograph - an absolutely shocking image given that the Parthenon is the archetypal icon for Greece and therefore for the cradle of democracy.

I saw a debate on TV recently here in the UK about the current Greek financial situation and was incensed by the attitude of a hedgefund manager who clearly saw the vulnerability of Greece to market forces as an opportunity to make a quick buck, and that Greece deserved everything it got. I just hope that Greece is given a fair chance to sort out its economy. I posted the article not to gloat at the current position in which Greece finds itself (as some seem to think!), but to point out the attitudes of some (hopefully a minority) Germans. These idiot politicians seem to have no regard for history, and appear completely insensitive to the role of their own nation in Greece's problems and, as you described so well, national psyche.

Talisker, thank you for you interesting thread. My apologies for not treating the thread with the respect it deserves.

I believe it is a little unfair to expect Germany, or any other EU nation for that matter, to pick up the tab of Greece's financial mismanagement. Germany's response, I believe is very much tongue in cheek, probably to highlight the ludicrous expectations that it should bail Greece out of this mess. Greece needs to work things out by itself, and the Greek Government needs to completely overhaul its tax system and address the issue of rampant corruption within the tax office, public sector and tax evasion. This, along with economic mismanagement from the previous administration has finally brought the country to its knees. Just because the previous administration mismanaged the economy, and just because Greeks just don't want to pay their due taxes to the state, does not mean that the rich countries of the EU, such as Germany should come in and save the day! This financial crisis, could indeed be Greece's best opportunity to completely overhaul the entire economy, and stamp out corruption and tax evasion. This is basically the crux of the situation, and Greece will need to address these issues.

Greece has even stated that Germany has an obligation as a result of its invasion and occupation in WW11. Well, this to me just doesn't make any sense, and only Greeks, who don't want to face the truth, or accept responsibility for their own shortcomings, can could come up with such an insane assertion. This Greek assertion would also mean that a country like Germany would be liable for many other nations who may experience a financial crisis in the future. Just imagine if Russia, Israel, France, or even Great Britain came up with such a notion. Since when should Germany be liable for other countries as a result of WW11, especially since Germany already had paid a very hefty price and paid compensation? Let us not forget that Italy was forced to cede control of the Dodecanese Islands to Greece as compensation for its invasion of Greece.

It is much better for Greece to implement its Austerity package. It will need to increase taxes, cut spending on Defense, Education, Health, infrastructure, and even sell off public utilities and state airlines. Public servants will have a small pay cut, and pensions will be frozen for a period. There is no other way, and these measures will hurt the people. That's just the way it is.

The Austerity package should see Greece gradually crawl out of this mess. But what gets me is the fact that the Greek people know full well that their country is on the verge of bankruptcy, and yet, the minute the Austerity package is announced, trade unions and citizens take to the streets and riot. It is as if many of them couldn't care less that the country is in dire trouble, and are protesting against the expenditure cuts, pay cuts and tax increases!! This is rather odd.

So if some Greeks are unwilling to batten the hatches, and ride this storm out, just like many other countries such as the US are as we speak, and just like every nation has done from time to time in the past, then why should Germany come up with the cash? Perhaps you might believe it is obligated as an EU member. But I would presume that German tax payers would much rather for Germany to withdraw from the EU and also withdraw from the Euro-zone, than be viewed by the PIGS as a cash cow and as an easy solution for their financial woes.

I believe, the EU is now at the crossroads! Thanks to Greece!

(And by extension, just like Greece screwed Cyprus in the past - it could be the case that Greece will screw the EU, and by extension screw Cyprus once again! Way to go!!!!! )

This commentary in Ekathimerini shows a balanced view to me, outlining the need for a system which ensures ecomically vulnerable nations (such as Greece at present) are allowed fair terms to repay their debts (as they are setting out to do) and points out that the richer nations (such as Germany) are relying on making financial gain from these situations to sort out their own economic problems. It also indicates a willingness for Greece to change.

Curse and godsend
One thing has become strikingly clear as Greece’s great economic drama unfolds: The Greeks will have to pull themselves out of the mess on their own. Despite the danger that the eurozone faces as a whole, despite the threat its debt crisis poses to Europe’s political unification and irrespective of the responsibility of predatory investors, the rest of Europe sees Greece’s problem as comeuppance for years of profligacy and political cowardice. European policy is now being shaped by public opinion in each country – and the public is in no mood to see other countries benefit when its own is facing benefit reductions and a shaky future. This is a logical reaction. But it is also undeniable that European governments have been very slow to formulate policy toward the Greek crisis and, at least in some cases, they have been at the forefront of criticizing Greece and, thereby, isolating it. (This may be aimed at taking the focus off their own possible problems, letting off steam or warning other possible fiscal miscreants that they can expect no bailouts.)

The result of all this has been to raise the stakes in a very dangerous bluff. Ratings agencies – declaring their skepticism as to Greece’s austerity measures – keep reducing its sovereign credit rating, continually pushing interest rates on bonds to unsustainable highs. On the one hand, they exploit Greece’s desperate need to borrow. On the other, they are anticipating that they will actually receive the interest that they are demanding. The more the European Union vacillates, the higher the cost of Greek debt climbs. So perhaps it is time that the EU, as a whole, made clear that there is a limit to the interest that any member state will have to pay. It could, for example, put a cap on the premium over benchmark German bonds that investors will get, while a country that has found itself needing such drastic intervention would be obliged to pay the extra rate (that investors would have received) into a special EU account that would be used precisely to fund its own bailout or those of others. At the same time, the problem country would have to accept structural changes that would be aimed at making its economy viable. In this way, a member state could be rescued without rewarding its profligacy nor allowing it to become a burden on others.

As there are still no such procedures, Greece has to make clear that it will take care of its problem on its own. It must introduce structural changes that will show its detractors that the economy is being placed on a viable footing. This demands radical changes to public administration and the social security system – both of which have to change for the better in terms of their cost and the services they supply, because until now their expenses have ballooned while their services have declined proportionately. Furthermore, aside from tourism, shipping and construction, Greece has to work out what it can offer its partners in the EU in order to attract investments and custom. There is no denying that Greece is expensive. Some of those expenses are justified (houses, for example, are still “handmade,” leading to high labor costs), others are not (as in corruption, red tape and the mismanagement of the 40 percent of wages that go to taxes and social security payments). Laws must be simplified and enforced without exception. Greece cannot become a net exporter, it simply does not have the size to achieve this. That is why it has to specialize in what it can do. For example, high-standard English-language universities could attract students from the whole region, as new high-tech health services could attract patients. Right now our universities and hospitals are exorbitantly expensive failures. If the crisis could force us to get them – and everything else – working at last, it will have turned curse to godsend. The choice is ours.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 010_115205

[Talisker]

At least the German Chancellor has something sensible to say.

Merkel calls for end to speculators who bet against Greece.

Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, lashed out at speculators and called for curbs on the derivatives markets, which she said were being used to profit from the financial distress of Greece.

The German Chancellor said that Europe must ensure that speculators were prevented from damaging Greece or other countries and said that she would discuss regulation of the credit defaults swaps (CDS) market with the United States. “We must succeed at putting a stop to the speculator’s game with sovereign states,” Mrs Merkel said. The Chancellor was speaking after a meeting with George Papandreou, the Prime Minister of Greece.

The Chancellor said that there was no need for a bailout of Greece by fellow eurozone members and she rounded on speculators for betting against Greece. Hedge funds were excluded from participation in a €5 billion bond sale this week by the Greek Government.

“Credit-default swaps, where you insure your neighbour’s house just to destroy it and make money from it, that’s exactly what we have to curb,” she said, adding that the issue was a global one and that action needed to be taken with the US.

She said: “This is what the politicians have to fight for. It is what the Greek Prime Minister wants, it is the will of the German Chancellor.”

Doubts in the financial markets about Greece’s ability to finance its public sector pushed up the cost of finance for the Greek Government to extraordinary levels last month.

BaFin, the German markets regulator, said that it was investigating the role of hedge funds in using the CDS market to bet against sovereign bond issuers.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 052224.ece

[Epiktitos]

The very fact that this thread is not in the Cyprus problem demonstrates the fundamental lack of understanding that people (virtually all non-Greeks, and many Greeks) have of the Greek (influenced) world, especially when viewed through the analytical prism of 20th century "western" political and economic structures.

None of what "westerner" non-Greeks know, or think they know, about politics, economics, security directly applies to Greece. For anyone who cares, I recommend Samuel Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations as a start. Huntington is somewhat wrong in his grouping of Greece and Cyprus with the "Orthodox world" of the Soviet Union, but he is very much correct in not grouping Greece with the the rest of non-Orthodox Europe, so his thesis vis a vis Greece is at least partly right, and illuminating for those who would attempt to understand Greece through the lens of an inappropriate (British, American, German) political discourse. Has anyone ever thought to themselves that the Americans just don't know what they're doing in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and that despite being able to crush military opposition within weeks they have not made one iota of progress on the political side within years, and probably never will? Apply the same feelings to Greece, just without the suicide bombings.

Once all that is out of the way, whosoever is interested can then begin to understand that since it's emergence as a modern state, Greece has lived with a permanent existential threat, both from within and from without. Once this is understood, it is possible (rabid Cypriot Greece haters excluded) to begin to understand that the Cyprus problem did not start in 1960 or 1974.

[Paphitis]

The legacy of the German and Italian invasions live on to this day in Greece, both in the hearts and minds of Greeks, and in the backwardness of Greece relative those more industrialised countries who for no good reason attacked and virtually destroyed not just a defenseless country, but an innocent social fabric too.

The German* political establishment knows well that the meager wealth transfers received by Greece through EU mechanisms are the minimum price to be paid to keep Greece pliant and not bellicose. The dislocation and trauma of second world war, which Greece neither sought, nor could possibly have hoped to benefit from, created the circumstances for the uncontrollable political forces within Greece ever since, forces easily exploited by outsiders for their own benefit, and to such detriment to the Greeks. It took the stupidity of the junta to lay bare the absurdity of the NATO alliance for the west Germans who in their extreme vulnerability on the northern plains of Europe realised that it had gone too far, and that Greece had to be brought back into the fold - for their own sake, and not for Greece's. It still took another big scare - Andreas Pappandreou, who showed them that Greece could easily be a Cuba in the Med. - for them to really cotton on that a lot more hinged on Greece than they supposed, and that's when the bribes really started flowing.

So don't be confused about the rantings of a few populist German politicians and a tabloid rag. The Germans know on which side their bread is buttered.

As for that photo, a picture really does tell a thousand words. There is not a Greek alive who has not seen it, and is not filled with revulsion at it. "Den xehnw" is not a sentiment invented for propaganda since 1974...the image of that vile flag flying above those ancient ruins are one of the many reasons that there is a sliver of insolence within Greeks for foreign might, and for foreigners in general. Despite the outcome, they weren't scared of the Germans or of the Italians in the 1940's, and they sure as hell are not scared today.

* Ditto for the Italians, who knew that there was no alternative to finally ceding the Dodecanese

Great post Epiktitos, thanks for that. Agree completely about the WW2 photograph - an absolutely shocking image given that the Parthenon is the archetypal icon for Greece and therefore for the cradle of democracy.

I saw a debate on TV recently here in the UK about the current Greek financial situation and was incensed by the attitude of a hedgefund manager who clearly saw the vulnerability of Greece to market forces as an opportunity to make a quick buck, and that Greece deserved everything it got. I just hope that Greece is given a fair chance to sort out its economy. I posted the article not to gloat at the current position in which Greece finds itself (as some seem to think!), but to point out the attitudes of some (hopefully a minority) Germans. These idiot politicians seem to have no regard for history, and appear completely insensitive to the role of their own nation in Greece's problems and, as you described so well, national psyche.

Talisker, thank you for you interesting thread. My apologies for not treating the thread with the respect it deserves.

I believe it is a little unfair to expect Germany, or any other EU nation for that matter, to pick up the tab of Greece's financial mismanagement. Germany's response, I believe is very much tongue in cheek, probably to highlight the ludicrous expectations that it should bail Greece out of this mess. Greece needs to work things out by itself, and the Greek Government needs to completely overhaul its tax system and address the issue of rampant corruption within the tax office, public sector and tax evasion. This, along with economic mismanagement from the previous administration has finally brought the country to its knees. Just because the previous administration mismanaged the economy, and just because Greeks just don't want to pay their due taxes to the state, does not mean that the rich countries of the EU, such as Germany should come in and save the day! This financial crisis, could indeed be Greece's best opportunity to completely overhaul the entire economy, and stamp out corruption and tax evasion. This is basically the crux of the situation, and Greece will need to address these issues.

Greece has even stated that Germany has an obligation as a result of its invasion and occupation in WW11. Well, this to me just doesn't make any sense, and only Greeks, who don't want to face the truth, or accept responsibility for their own shortcomings, can could come up with such an insane assertion. This Greek assertion would also mean that a country like Germany would be liable for many other nations who may experience a financial crisis in the future. Just imagine if Russia, Israel, France, or even Great Britain came up with such a notion. Since when should Germany be liable for other countries as a result of WW11, especially since Germany already had paid a very hefty price and paid compensation? Let us not forget that Italy was forced to cede control of the Dodecanese Islands to Greece as compensation for its invasion of Greece.

It is much better for Greece to implement its Austerity package. It will need to increase taxes, cut spending on Defense, Education, Health, infrastructure, and even sell off public utilities and state airlines. Public servants will have a small pay cut, and pensions will be frozen for a period. There is no other way, and these measures will hurt the people. That's just the way it is.

The Austerity package should see Greece gradually crawl out of this mess. But what gets me is the fact that the Greek people know full well that their country is on the verge of bankruptcy, and yet, the minute the Austerity package is announced, trade unions and citizens take to the streets and riot. It is as if many of them couldn't care less that the country is in dire trouble, and are protesting against the expenditure cuts, pay cuts and tax increases!! This is rather odd.

So if some Greeks are unwilling to batten the hatches, and ride this storm out, just like many other countries such as the US are as we speak, and just like every nation has done from time to time in the past, then why should Germany come up with the cash? Perhaps you might believe it is obligated as an EU member. But I would presume that German tax payers would much rather for Germany to withdraw from the EU and also withdraw from the Euro-zone, than be viewed by the PIGS as a cash cow and as an easy solution for their financial woes.

I believe, the EU is now at the crossroads! Thanks to Greece!

(And by extension, just like Greece screwed Cyprus in the past - it could be the case that Greece will screw the EU, and by extension screw Cyprus once again! Way to go!!!!! )

This commentary in Ekathimerini shows a balanced view to me, outlining the need for a system which ensures ecomically vulnerable nations (such as Greece at present) are allowed fair terms to repay their debts (as they are setting out to do) and points out that the richer nations (such as Germany) are relying on making financial gain from these situations to sort out their own economic problems. It also indicates a willingness for Greece to change.

Curse and godsend
One thing has become strikingly clear as Greece’s great economic drama unfolds: The Greeks will have to pull themselves out of the mess on their own. Despite the danger that the eurozone faces as a whole, despite the threat its debt crisis poses to Europe’s political unification and irrespective of the responsibility of predatory investors, the rest of Europe sees Greece’s problem as comeuppance for years of profligacy and political cowardice. European policy is now being shaped by public opinion in each country – and the public is in no mood to see other countries benefit when its own is facing benefit reductions and a shaky future. This is a logical reaction. But it is also undeniable that European governments have been very slow to formulate policy toward the Greek crisis and, at least in some cases, they have been at the forefront of criticizing Greece and, thereby, isolating it. (This may be aimed at taking the focus off their own possible problems, letting off steam or warning other possible fiscal miscreants that they can expect no bailouts.)

The result of all this has been to raise the stakes in a very dangerous bluff. Ratings agencies – declaring their skepticism as to Greece’s austerity measures – keep reducing its sovereign credit rating, continually pushing interest rates on bonds to unsustainable highs. On the one hand, they exploit Greece’s desperate need to borrow. On the other, they are anticipating that they will actually receive the interest that they are demanding. The more the European Union vacillates, the higher the cost of Greek debt climbs. So perhaps it is time that the EU, as a whole, made clear that there is a limit to the interest that any member state will have to pay. It could, for example, put a cap on the premium over benchmark German bonds that investors will get, while a country that has found itself needing such drastic intervention would be obliged to pay the extra rate (that investors would have received) into a special EU account that would be used precisely to fund its own bailout or those of others. At the same time, the problem country would have to accept structural changes that would be aimed at making its economy viable. In this way, a member state could be rescued without rewarding its profligacy nor allowing it to become a burden on others.

As there are still no such procedures, Greece has to make clear that it will take care of its problem on its own. It must introduce structural changes that will show its detractors that the economy is being placed on a viable footing. This demands radical changes to public administration and the social security system – both of which have to change for the better in terms of their cost and the services they supply, because until now their expenses have ballooned while their services have declined proportionately. Furthermore, aside from tourism, shipping and construction, Greece has to work out what it can offer its partners in the EU in order to attract investments and custom. There is no denying that Greece is expensive. Some of those expenses are justified (houses, for example, are still “handmade,” leading to high labor costs), others are not (as in corruption, red tape and the mismanagement of the 40 percent of wages that go to taxes and social security payments). Laws must be simplified and enforced without exception. Greece cannot become a net exporter, it simply does not have the size to achieve this. That is why it has to specialize in what it can do. For example, high-standard English-language universities could attract students from the whole region, as new high-tech health services could attract patients. Right now our universities and hospitals are exorbitantly expensive failures. If the crisis could force us to get them – and everything else – working at last, it will have turned curse to godsend. The choice is ours.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 010_115205

I'm not an economist, but my understanding is that Greece has some 50 Billion Euros worth of loans due in the coming weeks. Therefore, Greece needs to raise those funds almost immediately or it will default, creating massive havoc within the Euro-zone. Greece is able to borrow the money, thus buying it some time to implement the Austerity measures and completely overhaul its economy, public sector and clamp down on tax evasion. The debt will still be there, since Greece will still borrow the outstanding loan amounts in order to pay out loans approaching maturity.

Now, because of Greece's very dire situation, it is inevitable that the bonds and Treasury Bills it will need to issue to raise the funds from investment institutions, will be very high yield, since Greece will now be deemed to be a very high risk investment. Because of the high risk factor, the yield and the terms of any future loans, will be much higher than what they would be in a solvent country like Cyprus for example. If the yield and terms were the same as everyone else, then investment institutions will just ditch Greece and opt for lower risk countries, and Greece would most certainly default!

So issuing bonds is only a very temporary fix. All it will do is buy Greece some time. Greece will then need to use this time to implement the Austerity measures and begin to reduce debt as soon as possible. But even more importantly, Greece will need to completely overhaul the entire economy and tax system. The fact that Doctors and Lawyers in Kolonaki are only declaring a fraction of their income, whilst affording lavish homes, expensive cars, holiday homes and what not should raise many alarm bells and insight as to how Greece has got itself in such financial trouble.

[Talisker]

The very fact that this thread is not in the Cyprus problem demonstrates the fundamental lack of understanding that people (virtually all non-Greeks, and many Greeks) have of the Greek (influenced) world, especially when viewed through the analytical prism of 20th century "western" political and economic structures.

Yes, I deliberately placed this thread within the Politics and Elections forum rather then CyProb because I was hoping that rather than become another navel-gazing, sabre-rattling, everyone-is-to-blame-but-us slanging match, it would be an opportunity to discuss the EU in general with Greece's current financial problems as an 'interesting' place to start (which could, I agree, also include reference to EU members such as Cyprus and non-members such as Turkey). As a 'non-Greek' with many connections to Greece I'm always interested to know more about the country and people, and this is an opportunity to explore something about Greek culture, attitudes, self-perception of where they fit within the EU and wider world, and as you mentioned in an earlier post, psyche.

None of what "westerner" non-Greeks know, or think they know, about politics, economics, security directly applies to Greece. For anyone who cares, I recommend Samuel Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations as a start. Huntington is somewhat wrong in his grouping of Greece and Cyprus with the "Orthodox world" of the Soviet Union, but he is very much correct in not grouping Greece with the the rest of non-Orthodox Europe, so his thesis vis a vis Greece is at least partly right, and illuminating for those who would attempt to understand Greece through the lens of an inappropriate (British, American, German) political discourse. Has anyone ever thought to themselves that the Americans just don't know what they're doing in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and that despite being able to crush military opposition within weeks they have not made one iota of progress on the political side within years, and probably never will? Apply the same feelings to Greece, just without the suicide bombings.

Thanks for the interesting information about 'grouping' Greece outside of 'non-Orthodox Europe' - I'd be happy to read the recommended book, but in the meantime do you want to elaborate further - give reasons for this grouping? You mention that Huntington groups Cyprus with Greece and the Orthodox world of the (old) Soviet Union, and mention you consider this to be partly right for Greece - where do you place Cyprus (if different)?

Quite a few of us on the forum are cynical about the role of US/UK in Iraq, and understand the gulf that exists between attainable (and achieved) military domination and the much more difficult, or even impossible, task of 'winning hearts and minds'.

Once all that is out of the way, whosoever is interested can then begin to understand that since it's emergence as a modern state, Greece has lived with a permanent existential threat, both from within and from without. Once this is understood, it is possible (rabid Cypriot Greece haters excluded) to begin to understand that the Cyprus problem did not start in 1960 or 1974.

These are interesting comments and again I'd ask you to elaborate viv a vis Greece and existential threat, and the origins of the Cyprus problem. I'm not one of those who visits this forum pretending to know all the answers. I visit in the hope I will learn something from time to time, usually about CyProb but also about other issues, and as such I'm certainly intrigued to find out more about Greece's current problems and aspects pertaining to Greece and Greeks more generally.