Cyprus-Forum.com

[bill cobbett]

Cypriots are a simple people. Simpletons some might say. That is how they survived over millennia, in the process preserving their Hellenic identity, minus a few who opted to side with the enemy.

As such they believe:

- RoC is invulnerable
- the illegal manufactured line can never be awarded a seal of approval
- gCypriot towns of Morphou, Lapithos, keryneia etc. will again be such
- talk of a possible BBF was the result of an illegal WAR waged against Cyprus

Cypriots will never agree on a BBF. NEVER. They are too smart for it, though I recognize the difficulties for our politicians.

tCypriots, the circa 10%-14% minority has limited options. Its time is running out. Turkey's time is also running out, where she will have to discuss soon her Cyprus logic with her own Kurds.

It is about time we tell our tCypriot compatriots, with love and honesty, that if they wish to command things to try their luck in Ankara. In Cyprus, Cypriots command and Cypriots want their Cypriot towns back, they want a unitary state where a minority cannot be allowed to whine so much.

More on my blog:
http://antifon.blogspot.com

A little reminder for your point of view re this BBF business AF...

Yep ... def, as you will know, agreed at the High Level Meetings/Agreements of 1977 and 1979 but agreements can be broken... by, amongst other things, subsequent actions and by lack of goodwill, by not entering into the underlying spirit of the agreements.

... and what better way of undermining those High Level Agreements than by Turkey and its Regime establishing, and supporting with billions of dollars since, the attempt at partition and annexation known as "trcn" in 1983???

When seen in this light, the High Level Agreements were clearly broken, and can therefore be declared as being NULL AND VOID.

See here bill cobbett:
http://antifon.blogspot.com/2011/03/dec ... -void.html

... ooooooooh

[Kikapu]

Kikapu...thank you for taking the time to reply to my post...I am really not in the mood to go over all the issues you've raised, as we have discussed them here ad infinitum...My point is that Cyprus issue is too complex to be reduced to any one simple point...Even if that point is as noble as your democracy and human rights arguments...

Hi Bir,

The ONLY reason why I keep bringing up Democracy and Human Rights all the time, it is because the the RoC is in the EU and these principles will need to be included along with the rest of the EU Principles. These are not just my wishes only, but the basic requirements by the EU. Therefore, we need to find a solution taking these factors into an account, which some of our TCs friends on the forum do not like and instead want to label it as a "GC Democracy" and those who go along with the EU Principles are all GC sympathisers and GC "mouthpieces". If that was the case, then the whole west is a GC sympathisers. These accusers are just afraid that they are going to have to return their "spoils of war", that's all. I have asked the question before to these TCs who make these annoying arguments all the time to go and get an approval from the EU as to whether they can have a settlement without violating the EU's principles instead of talking rubbish. They have not done so. I wonder why.? The truth is, the north does not want a settlement based on the EU Principles. Well, they have a problem in that case, and their problem is not with the GCs over these EU Principles, but with the EU itself.

People and communities have collective consciouness which goes beyond any logical or legal or even fair considerations...The worst approach one can take to a victim of trauma is disbelief and suspicion...The second worst approach is to blame them for bringing the victimisation onto themselves...The third worst thing is to accuse them of gaining something at the expense of those they consider their oppressors...And the cardinal mistake is to refuse to show and empathy and compassion....Our GC cousins of the fanatial/nationalist perusation are doing all this and more...Knowing well the effect it is having on the TCs and on the negotiations to find a solution...

This applies to ALL the communities in Cyprus. There has been enough destruction and hardship placed on them from each other as well as from foreign forces. This is nothing new and people move on, with scars and all. In comparison to what happened to people from other conflicts in the world in the last 100 years, ours will barely make it to the long lists of conflicts. Shit happens in life but people move on and so does life, or else being stuck in the past of any conflict only overshadows their future. It's time to move on, as I have done personally as well as my immediate family, despite our loses in human cost as well as financial.

AS the time drags on the status quo,which is effectively Partition,becomes more and more entrenched...That is what I mean by these fanatics b eing the real Partitionists...If you know for sure that a certain actions will result in stalemate,and if the stalemate will result in Partition,and you refuse to change course,you are a partitionist...In effect and in reality...

Well, the GCs cannot change the EU Principles to reach a settlement just to please the TCs, even if they wanted. How can they go against the EU Principles when the RoC is part of a 27 EU member states with those very same principles, and the bigger question I needs to ask is, why would or should they.? How does one go back to a undemocratic and human rights violations from a Democratic state as they have now.? Democracy and Human Rights are not perfect and the world constantly is changing to improve on these principles, so how can any society in the west can be asked to go backwards in Democracy and Human Rights and not forward.?It is totally unnatural to do so and the EU is not about to go backwards either.

Having said the above, the TCs on the other hand are willing to go backwards, hence their insistence that Democracy and Human Rights should be violated in order to reach a settlement. For what it's worth, the TCs do claim to have a Democracy in the north, but willing to forgo that for a undemocratic and Human Rights violations. But of course, these violations are not meant to be for themselves, but on the GCs and other communities, so in effect, the TCs do not respect Democracy and Human Rights and are willing to drop is at a moments notice in violating these principles if they can benefit from undemocratic and Human Rights placed on others. The whole thing is upside down if you ask me.

Therefore, if the GCs refusal to accept having to forgo their Democratic and Human Rights in order to reach a settlement and in return they are then labelled as being "Partitionists", then the same can be said on the TCs who also refuse to have a settlement unless these principles are violated. They too then become "Partitionist". The question is, which one is right and which one is wrong in making such demands and who are the ones that are likely to lose in the long run and which are not. Despite the EU's shortcomings, it is the ONLY game in town and the GCs and the RoC are already in it, and despite the genuine TCs are also in it, the "trnc" (in the unlikely event of an permanent partition) and Turkey will never become part of it until they too start looking forward with Democracy and Human Rights and not backwards the 16th century. But you have told us many times, and rightfully so, that the TCs do not control their own destiny, but it is that Turkey which controls their destiny, so there isn't anything the GCs can do for the TCs if Turkey won't allow it. This needs to change first before there can ever be a settlement in Cyprus by the Cypriots themselves. Once the Turkey's interests equation is taken out of the Cyprus settlements, I believe Cypriots themselves can live under the EU Principles.

If you do not see my logic than we are talking about chalk and cheese...You are not helping the situation,because you are insisting on buttering their bread,giving them reason to think they might be right in their choice of actions....Cyprob will never be solved as long as our GC cousins refuse to accept the lions share of the blame for what has happened...And start showing some undeerstanding,empathy and compassion for the TC plight...If you want to help find a solution you should start telling them that...

It must go without saying that ALL Cypriots should show empathy and understand to each others communities, and they will once the dust settles, but this in not likely to happen on a mass level as you would like to see, not while the present divide continues to be and injustices committed are the norm and not the exception.

As I've said above, the whole purpose the RoC being in the EU is to have the EU Principles apply in Cyprus. These EU Principles are not my creations. I ONLY agree with them, just because having lived under these principles most of my life, just as you have as well as large portion of Cypriots, it is very natural to accept them, but it appears that not everyone does, and that is OK, but they cannot hold the rest of Cypriots moving forward. 2004 has changed everything and no longer can anything like the Annan Plan can be introduced in Cyprus again. The problem is, the north/Turkey have not faced reality yet. Lets not blame the system of Democracy and Human Rights, but instead lets bring everybody into it in Cyprus. That is what I'm doing. It is not for the GCs and not for the TCs. It is for myself. This is my contribution to bettering Cyprus and ALL Cypriots. All they have to do, is just accept it. The GCs for the most part have and I'm sure most TCs have also. It is the TC leadership and the Fascists who have not along with Turkey. In time, they will not have a choice. Time is not on their side, as we are witnessing the events in the Arab world taking place. If there's more you want me to do, I'll be happy to do so if it's to help the TCs become part of Cyprus with the EU principles for a better life and future for them and their children, but please do not ask me to do anything that would mean less than the above basic principles shared by the rest of the EU member states..

[BirKibrisli]

Kikapu...thank you for taking the time to reply to my post...I am really not in the mood to go over all the issues you've raised, as we have discussed them here ad infinitum...My point is that Cyprus issue is too complex to be reduced to any one simple point...Even if that point is as noble as your democracy and human rights arguments...

Hi Bir,

The ONLY reason why I keep bringing up Democracy and Human Rights all the time, it is because the the RoC is in the EU and these principles will need to be included along with the rest of the EU Principles. These are not just my wishes only, but the basic requirements by the EU. Therefore, we need to find a solution taking these factors into an account, which some of our TCs friends on the forum do not like and instead want to label it as a "GC Democracy" and those who go along with the EU Principles are all GC sympathisers and GC "mouthpieces". If that was the case, then the whole west is a GC sympathisers. These accusers are just afraid that they are going to have to return their "spoils of war", that's all. I have asked the question before to these TCs who make these annoying arguments all the time to go and get an approval from the EU as to whether they can have a settlement without violating the EU's principles instead of talking rubbish. They have not done so. I wonder why.? The truth is, the north does not want a settlement based on the EU Principles. Well, they have a problem in that case, and their problem is not with the GCs over these EU Principles, but with the EU itself.

People and communities have collective consciouness which goes beyond any logical or legal or even fair considerations...The worst approach one can take to a victim of trauma is disbelief and suspicion...The second worst approach is to blame them for bringing the victimisation onto themselves...The third worst thing is to accuse them of gaining something at the expense of those they consider their oppressors...And the cardinal mistake is to refuse to show and empathy and compassion....Our GC cousins of the fanatial/nationalist perusation are doing all this and more...Knowing well the effect it is having on the TCs and on the negotiations to find a solution...

This applies to ALL the communities in Cyprus. There has been enough destruction and hardship placed on them from each other as well as from foreign forces. This is nothing new and people move on, with scars and all. In comparison to what happened to people from other conflicts in the world in the last 100 years, ours will barely make it to the long lists of conflicts. Shit happens in life but people move on and so does life, or else being stuck in the past of any conflict only overshadows their future. It's time to move on, as I have done personally as well as my immediate family, despite our loses in human cost as well as financial.

AS the time drags on the status quo,which is effectively Partition,becomes more and more entrenched...That is what I mean by these fanatics b eing the real Partitionists...If you know for sure that a certain actions will result in stalemate,and if the stalemate will result in Partition,and you refuse to change course,you are a partitionist...In effect and in reality...

Well, the GCs cannot change the EU Principles to reach a settlement just to please the TCs, even if they wanted. How can they go against the EU Principles when the RoC is part of a 27 EU member states with those very same principles, and the bigger question I needs to ask is, why would or should they.? How does one go back to a undemocratic and human rights violations from a Democratic state as they have now.? Democracy and Human Rights are not perfect and the world constantly is changing to improve on these principles, so how can any society in the west can be asked to go backwards in Democracy and Human Rights and not forward.?It is totally unnatural to do so and the EU is not about to go backwards either.

Having said the above, the TCs on the other hand are willing to go backwards, hence their insistence that Democracy and Human Rights should be violated in order to reach a settlement. For what it's worth, the TCs do claim to have a Democracy in the north, but willing to forgo that for a undemocratic and Human Rights violations. But of course, these violations are not meant to be for themselves, but on the GCs and other communities, so in effect, the TCs do not respect Democracy and Human Rights and are willing to drop is at a moments notice in violating these principles if they can benefit from undemocratic and Human Rights placed on others. The whole thing is upside down if you ask me.

Therefore, if the GCs refusal to accept having to forgo their Democratic and Human Rights in order to reach a settlement and in return they are then labelled as being "Partitionists", then the same can be said on the TCs who also refuse to have a settlement unless these principles are violated. They too then become "Partitionist". The question is, which one is right and which one is wrong in making such demands and who are the ones that are likely to lose in the long run and which are not. Despite the EU's shortcomings, it is the ONLY game in town and the GCs and the RoC are already in it, and despite the genuine TCs are also in it, the "trnc" (in the unlikely event of an permanent partition) and Turkey will never become part of it until they too start looking forward with Democracy and Human Rights and not backwards the 16th century. But you have told us many times, and rightfully so, that the TCs do not control their own destiny, but it is that Turkey which controls their destiny, so there isn't anything the GCs can do for the TCs if Turkey won't allow it. This needs to change first before there can ever be a settlement in Cyprus by the Cypriots themselves. Once the Turkey's interests equation is taken out of the Cyprus settlements, I believe Cypriots themselves can live under the EU Principles.

If you do not see my logic than we are talking about chalk and cheese...You are not helping the situation,because you are insisting on buttering their bread,giving them reason to think they might be right in their choice of actions....Cyprob will never be solved as long as our GC cousins refuse to accept the lions share of the blame for what has happened...And start showing some undeerstanding,empathy and compassion for the TC plight...If you want to help find a solution you should start telling them that...

It must go without saying that ALL Cypriots should show empathy and understand to each others communities, and they will once the dust settles, but this in not likely to happen on a mass level as you would like to see, not while the present divide continues to be and injustices committed are the norm and not the exception.

As I've said above, the whole purpose the RoC being in the EU is to have the EU Principles apply in Cyprus. These EU Principles are not my creations. I ONLY agree with them, just because having lived under these principles most of my life, just as you have as well as large portion of Cypriots, it is very natural to accept them, but it appears that not everyone does, and that is OK, but they cannot hold the rest of Cypriots moving forward. 2004 has changed everything and no longer can anything like the Annan Plan can be introduced in Cyprus again. The problem is, the north/Turkey have not faced reality yet. Lets not blame the system of Democracy and Human Rights, but instead lets bring everybody into it in Cyprus. That is what I'm doing. It is not for the GCs and not for the TCs. It is for myself. This is my contribution to bettering Cyprus and ALL Cypriots. All they have to do, is just accept it. The GCs for the most part have and I'm sure most TCs have also. It is the TC leadership and the Fascists who have not along with Turkey. In time, they will not have a choice. Time is not on their side, as we are witnessing the events in the Arab world taking place. If there's more you want me to do, I'll be happy to do so if it's to help the TCs become part of Cyprus with the EU principles for a better life and future for them and their children, but please do not ask me to do anything that would mean less than the above basic principles shared by the rest of the EU member states..

Hi,Kikapu....
Thanks again for your detailed reply...I know you mean very well,but my belief remains : you are not helping the advance towards a solution as you keep repeating the GC arguments,which I am sure you sincerely believe in...You must know that there are tens of thousands of TCs who have gained NOTHING from Cyprob and lost EVERYTHING,hence they are not hanging onto any gains when they cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs to behave properly in a full democracy with or without EU principles...

So your assertion that the TCs do not want a solution because they have too much to lose is very suspect ,to put it mildly...There is something you can do,but you refuse to do it,on principle I know...And that is to point out some of the wrongs the GCs have done to bring us to the present impasse...I respect your decision to stick to your guns,but I reserve the right to remind you every now and then that traumatised people and traumatised communities do not behave in an altruistic manner however much you'd like them to...The factors you and our GC cousins refuse to consider must be acknowledged and addressed satisfactorily before a solution is reached...

[Viewpoint]

Well said Bir this individual thinks he can apply text book principles and hope everyone will follow in line, well it doesnt work that way. The EU is not the entire world there are other examples of democracy and human rights at work eg Switzerland and Norway everything is not black and white as he tires to have us believe. Even his plan was flawed to a degree where we would easily be swept under the carpet to allow the GCs to take full control over the whole island pushing TCs into minority status with no real effective say.

He has to understand that we will never take that leap of faith he demands in the name of EU democracy and human rights, we need positive and guarantees that will not allow GCs to push us to one side ever again.

[ZoC]

Kikapu...thank you for taking the time to reply to my post...I am really not in the mood to go over all the issues you've raised, as we have discussed them here ad infinitum...My point is that Cyprus issue is too complex to be reduced to any one simple point...Even if that point is as noble as your democracy and human rights arguments...

Hi Bir,

The ONLY reason why I keep bringing up Democracy and Human Rights all the time, it is because the the RoC is in the EU and these principles will need to be included along with the rest of the EU Principles. These are not just my wishes only, but the basic requirements by the EU. Therefore, we need to find a solution taking these factors into an account, which some of our TCs friends on the forum do not like and instead want to label it as a "GC Democracy" and those who go along with the EU Principles are all GC sympathisers and GC "mouthpieces". If that was the case, then the whole west is a GC sympathisers. These accusers are just afraid that they are going to have to return their "spoils of war", that's all. I have asked the question before to these TCs who make these annoying arguments all the time to go and get an approval from the EU as to whether they can have a settlement without violating the EU's principles instead of talking rubbish. They have not done so. I wonder why.? The truth is, the north does not want a settlement based on the EU Principles. Well, they have a problem in that case, and their problem is not with the GCs over these EU Principles, but with the EU itself.

People and communities have collective consciouness which goes beyond any logical or legal or even fair considerations...The worst approach one can take to a victim of trauma is disbelief and suspicion...The second worst approach is to blame them for bringing the victimisation onto themselves...The third worst thing is to accuse them of gaining something at the expense of those they consider their oppressors...And the cardinal mistake is to refuse to show and empathy and compassion....Our GC cousins of the fanatial/nationalist perusation are doing all this and more...Knowing well the effect it is having on the TCs and on the negotiations to find a solution...

This applies to ALL the communities in Cyprus. There has been enough destruction and hardship placed on them from each other as well as from foreign forces. This is nothing new and people move on, with scars and all. In comparison to what happened to people from other conflicts in the world in the last 100 years, ours will barely make it to the long lists of conflicts. Shit happens in life but people move on and so does life, or else being stuck in the past of any conflict only overshadows their future. It's time to move on, as I have done personally as well as my immediate family, despite our loses in human cost as well as financial.

AS the time drags on the status quo,which is effectively Partition,becomes more and more entrenched...That is what I mean by these fanatics b eing the real Partitionists...If you know for sure that a certain actions will result in stalemate,and if the stalemate will result in Partition,and you refuse to change course,you are a partitionist...In effect and in reality...

Well, the GCs cannot change the EU Principles to reach a settlement just to please the TCs, even if they wanted. How can they go against the EU Principles when the RoC is part of a 27 EU member states with those very same principles, and the bigger question I needs to ask is, why would or should they.? How does one go back to a undemocratic and human rights violations from a Democratic state as they have now.? Democracy and Human Rights are not perfect and the world constantly is changing to improve on these principles, so how can any society in the west can be asked to go backwards in Democracy and Human Rights and not forward.?It is totally unnatural to do so and the EU is not about to go backwards either.

Having said the above, the TCs on the other hand are willing to go backwards, hence their insistence that Democracy and Human Rights should be violated in order to reach a settlement. For what it's worth, the TCs do claim to have a Democracy in the north, but willing to forgo that for a undemocratic and Human Rights violations. But of course, these violations are not meant to be for themselves, but on the GCs and other communities, so in effect, the TCs do not respect Democracy and Human Rights and are willing to drop is at a moments notice in violating these principles if they can benefit from undemocratic and Human Rights placed on others. The whole thing is upside down if you ask me.

Therefore, if the GCs refusal to accept having to forgo their Democratic and Human Rights in order to reach a settlement and in return they are then labelled as being "Partitionists", then the same can be said on the TCs who also refuse to have a settlement unless these principles are violated. They too then become "Partitionist". The question is, which one is right and which one is wrong in making such demands and who are the ones that are likely to lose in the long run and which are not. Despite the EU's shortcomings, it is the ONLY game in town and the GCs and the RoC are already in it, and despite the genuine TCs are also in it, the "trnc" (in the unlikely event of an permanent partition) and Turkey will never become part of it until they too start looking forward with Democracy and Human Rights and not backwards the 16th century. But you have told us many times, and rightfully so, that the TCs do not control their own destiny, but it is that Turkey which controls their destiny, so there isn't anything the GCs can do for the TCs if Turkey won't allow it. This needs to change first before there can ever be a settlement in Cyprus by the Cypriots themselves. Once the Turkey's interests equation is taken out of the Cyprus settlements, I believe Cypriots themselves can live under the EU Principles.

If you do not see my logic than we are talking about chalk and cheese...You are not helping the situation,because you are insisting on buttering their bread,giving them reason to think they might be right in their choice of actions....Cyprob will never be solved as long as our GC cousins refuse to accept the lions share of the blame for what has happened...And start showing some undeerstanding,empathy and compassion for the TC plight...If you want to help find a solution you should start telling them that...

It must go without saying that ALL Cypriots should show empathy and understand to each others communities, and they will once the dust settles, but this in not likely to happen on a mass level as you would like to see, not while the present divide continues to be and injustices committed are the norm and not the exception.

As I've said above, the whole purpose the RoC being in the EU is to have the EU Principles apply in Cyprus. These EU Principles are not my creations. I ONLY agree with them, just because having lived under these principles most of my life, just as you have as well as large portion of Cypriots, it is very natural to accept them, but it appears that not everyone does, and that is OK, but they cannot hold the rest of Cypriots moving forward. 2004 has changed everything and no longer can anything like the Annan Plan can be introduced in Cyprus again. The problem is, the north/Turkey have not faced reality yet. Lets not blame the system of Democracy and Human Rights, but instead lets bring everybody into it in Cyprus. That is what I'm doing. It is not for the GCs and not for the TCs. It is for myself. This is my contribution to bettering Cyprus and ALL Cypriots. All they have to do, is just accept it. The GCs for the most part have and I'm sure most TCs have also. It is the TC leadership and the Fascists who have not along with Turkey. In time, they will not have a choice. Time is not on their side, as we are witnessing the events in the Arab world taking place. If there's more you want me to do, I'll be happy to do so if it's to help the TCs become part of Cyprus with the EU principles for a better life and future for them and their children, but please do not ask me to do anything that would mean less than the above basic principles shared by the rest of the EU member states..

Hi,Kikapu....
Thanks again for your detailed reply...I know you mean very well,but my belief remains : you are not helping the advance towards a solution as you keep repeating the GC arguments,which I am sure you sincerely believe in...

if kiks (or any other civilised person or eu/us citizen who isn't a gc) believes in a certain argument - then it follows that the argument can't be termed simply a "gc argument" at all. a better term for it would be a "civilised argument"; as opposed to wotever it is u believe in.

[ZoC]

Well said Bir

there you go, birkturk.... if this lowlife thinks u said "well", u surely didn't.

[Viewpoint]

Well said Bir

there you go, birkturk.... if this lowlife thinks u said "well", u surely didn't.

You are a bloody moron.

[ZoC]

Well said Bir

there you go, birkturk.... if this lowlife thinks u said "well", u surely didn't.

You are a bloody moron.

[Viewpoint]

Well said Bir

there you go, birkturk.... if this lowlife thinks u said "well", u surely didn't.

You are a bloody moron.

No thanks, each to their own.

[Kikapu]

Well said Bir this individual thinks he can apply text book principles and hope everyone will follow in line, well it doesnt work that way. The EU is not the entire world there are other examples of democracy and human rights at work eg Switzerland and Norway everything is not black and white as he tires to have us believe. Even his plan was flawed to a degree where we would easily be swept under the carpet to allow the GCs to take full control over the whole island pushing TCs into minority status with no real effective say.

He has to understand that we will never take that leap of faith he demands in the name of EU democracy and human rights, we need positive and guarantees that will not allow GCs to push us to one side ever again.

What do you know about the Swiss Democracy.?

Swiss Democracy works fine for me in Switzerland and would in Cyprus too, if we had a Confederate Cyprus, but we don't, so why talk about it.!

Why don't you go and ask the EU just which parts of the GCs Democratic, Human rights, International law and the EU Principles you can violate in order to have a settlement in Cyprus, an EU member state, and then we can listen to your long list of gibberish about what kind of a settlement we can have in Cyprus.

My plan is the best you are going to get, which gives you everything you asked for, including the not so True Democratic TC/GC in a "Rotating Presidency", but as long as the TC/GC Presidential candidates run as one ticket to be elected as ONE team by ALL Cypriots, I don't see it as being a major violation of True Democratic principles. I have already explained to you all the other advantages in a BBF for the TCs, including the "Grandfathered-in Population" rule, which also borders on not being True Democratic, but with enough GC land returned, this would become a redundant rule so I'm not too concerned it violating anyone's Human Rights. Despite all this, you are still pushing for system which would violate others Democratic and Human Rights, just because you are still hanging onto your Talkim Dreams, which you think you can achieve and be in the EU too. The longer you avoid having a BBF along the lines I have suggested, you will end up not getting anything at all other than a Unitary state, and then you will be sorry. The TCs have ZERO say so in their future in Cyprus. Only the RoC and Turkey does. When the time comes for Turkey really wanting to be in the EU, it is then you will regret not taking the chance to have a BBF based on True Federation, Democracy, Human Rights, International law and the EU Principles. The time is not on your side.