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Greek Tragedy

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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Sotos » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:03 am

Cap wrote:Cyprus is in my blood.
My parents, my grandparents, great grandparents.
All from Cyprus.

Zero affiliation to YOUR Turkey and Greece.
Zero, Nada, Fu** all

What century are you living in Soto?


Your great grandparents were ancient Cypriots? :?
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Sotos » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:06 am

Cap wrote:The so called 'TC's' have been here for over 500 years, the original true North Cypriots hate the Turks more than you do.


The tcs have not been here for over 500 years. And who are the "original true North Cypriots"?
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby supporttheunderdog » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:36 pm

Sotos wrote:
Cap wrote:The so called 'TC's' have been here for over 500 years, the original true North Cypriots hate the Turks more than you do.


The tcs have not been here for over 500 years. And who are the "original true North Cypriots"?


Abstract
Genetics can provide invaluable information on the ancestry of the current inhabitants of Cyprus. A Y-chromosome analysis was performed to (i) determine paternal ancestry among the Greek Cypriot (GCy) community in the context of the Central and Eastern Mediterranean and the Near East; and (ii) identify genetic similarities and differences between Greek Cypriots (GCy) and Turkish Cypriots (TCy). Our haplotype-based analysis has revealed that GCy and TCy patrilineages derive primarily from a single gene pool and show very close genetic affinity (low genetic differentiation) to Calabrian Italian and Lebanese patrilineages. In terms of more recent (past millennium) ancestry, as indicated by Y-haplotype sharing, GCy and TCy share much more haplotypes between them than with any surrounding population (7–8% of total haplotypes shared), while TCy also share around 3% of haplotypes with mainland Turks, and to a lesser extent with North Africans. In terms of Y-haplogroup frequencies, again GCy and TCy show very similar distributions, with the predominant haplogroups in both being J2a-M410, E-M78, and G2-P287. Overall, GCy also have a similar Y-haplogroup distribution to non-Turkic Anatolian and Southwest Caucasian populations, as well as Cretan Greeks. TCy show a slight shift towards Turkish populations, due to the presence of Eastern Eurasian (some of which of possible Ottoman origin) Y-haplogroups. Overall, the Y-chromosome analysis performed, using both Y-STR haplotype and binary Y-haplogroup data puts Cypriot in the middle of a genetic continuum stretching from the Levant to Southeast Europe and reveals that despite some differences in haplotype sharing and haplogroup structure, Greek Cypriots [u]and Turkish Cypriots share primarily a common pre-Ottoman paternal ancestry[/u].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0179474

and

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303693336_Turkish_Cypriot_paternal_lineages_bear_an_autochthonous_character_and_closest_resemblance_to_those_from_neighboring_Near_Eastern_populations -
An increasing amount of population genetic data on the Turkish Cypriot community,
the second most populous ethnic group on the island, has also recently become available
(Bulbul et al., 2015; Gurkan et al., 2015a; Gurkan et al., 2015b; Pakstis et al., 2015; Terali et
al., 2014). These studies include data on Y-chromosomal STRs (Y-STRs) (17-loci, n=253),
nSTRs (15-loci, n=501), ancestry-informative (AI) single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) (55
AI-SNPs, n=60) and AI insertion-deletion polymorphisms (InDels) (46 AI-InDels, n=40). Initial
Y-STR analyses suggested a close genetic connection between the Turkish Cypriot paternal
lineages and those from the nearby Near Eastern and Southeastern European populations
(Terali et al., 2014). In contrast, subsequent population differentiation tests using 15-loci
nSTRs suggested a closer genetic connection with Anatolia (Gurkan et al., 2015b). Briefly, the
Turkish Cypriot nSTR dataset had significant differences at: (i) three loci with each of the two
different datasets from Turkey, (ii) four loci with the Greek dataset, and (iii) five loci with the
Lebanese dataset (Gurkan et al., 2015b). Although based on only 13-loci that were in
common, the Turkish Cypriot dataset was also found to have a significant difference at only
one locus (D7S820) with that for the Greek Cypriots (Cariolou et al., 2006; Gurkan et al.,
2015b). AI-InDel analyses also suggested shorter genetic distances between the Turkish
Cypriot population and those from the Near East in general and Anatolia in particular (Bulbul
et al., 2015). Similar findings could be traced back to research conducted on ABO blood
groups and the relevant gene frequencies of different Cypriot populations nearly six decades
ago. Despite the relatively low resolution it could offer, this study concluded that the two
largest communities from Cyprus had closest resemblances to each other, and, outside
Cyprus, they were both most similar to populations from Anatolia and then the rest of the
Near East (Clearkin, 1958


wher from most of the T/C the closesed related group are GC whith whom they likely share most common ancestry that implies they have been here as long as the GC..
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Sotos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:04 am

wher from most of the T/C the closesed related group are GC whith whom they likely share most common ancestry that implies they have been here as long as the GC..


This is true for only a minority of TCs, which are those selected by the ones who make politically motivated studies. Hence the "low resolution". I could make a similar study and "prove" that the British people are actually African... by testing just the Black ones. The fact that 10s of thousands of Turks were transferred to Cyprus during Ottoman rule is well recorded and it explains why this population speaks Turkish, and they aren't just Muslim, like the Bosnians, Albanians etc. This fact is even admitted by the link you gave:

The total population of Cyprus on the eve of the Ottoman takeover (1571) was around 200,000[5]. By the turn of the 17th century a substantial Muslim minority had appeared in Cyprus with the total taxable population (only adult males) amounting to 20,000 Muslims and 85,000 Christians[6,7]. The Ottoman settlers of Cyprus comprised of both civilians (mainly craftsmen and other skilled workers) and soldiers and mercenaries of the Ottoman army [8]. These individuals were most likely a mix of indigenous Anatolian populations (possibly including some Armenians and Greeks) and Turkic populations of Central Asian origin who were already admixed with the local Anatolian population after their arrival in Anatolia during the 13th cent. AD
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:02 am

...i beg to differ. I suggest that it implies that there was or is an overwhelming majority, a Cypriot way, and that assimilation of some kind occurred toward it.

...if what is Cypriot exists, it implies that beyond Nationalism, Cypriots (before a "Greece" or a "Turkey",) for thousands of years have sustained themselves as Cypriots through social-exchange.

...and in the moments just at the advent of the Republic of Cyprus, let us not forget that as a People they were recognised as one of the most socialised in the world; as Cypriots known as facilitators of exchange, and Great Cooperators.

...to think that Cap is not Cypriot, being born anywhere else on the planet seems ridiculous to me. "Purity" as in "Greekness" is just as ridiculous as "Turkishness". I am, being Cypriot, proud to be Greek, but like most Cypriots (and like most Greeks around the world) not "Greek". One thing i am convinced of is that Cypriots exist, that their roots are far older, and they existed before the mythic realities which divide them as Cypriots took hold of the Agenda, in Cyprus.
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:08 pm

Sotos wrote:
wher from most of the T/C the closesed related group are GC whith whom they likely share most common ancestry that implies they have been here as long as the GC..


This is true for only a minority of TCs, which are those selected by the ones who make politically motivated studies. Hence the "low resolution". I could make a similar study and "prove" that the British people are actually African... by testing just the Black ones. The fact that 10s of thousands of Turks were transferred to Cyprus during Ottoman rule is well recorded and it explains why this population speaks Turkish, and they aren't just Muslim, like the Bosnians, Albanians etc. This fact is even admitted by the link you gave:

The total population of Cyprus on the eve of the Ottoman takeover (1571) was around 200,000[5]. By the turn of the 17th century a substantial Muslim minority had appeared in Cyprus with the total taxable population (only adult males) amounting to 20,000 Muslims and 85,000 Christians[6,7]. The Ottoman settlers of Cyprus comprised of both civilians (mainly craftsmen and other skilled workers) and soldiers and mercenaries of the Ottoman army [8]. These individuals were most likely a mix of indigenous Anatolian populations (possibly including some Armenians and Greeks) and Turkic populations of Central Asian origin who were already admixed with the local Anatolian population after their arrival in Anatolia during the 13th cent. AD


This shows how the TC sample was selected:

Materials and methods
Population and sampling
Blood or buccal swab samples were collected from 380 randomly selected and unrelated
male volunteers from the Turkish Cypriot population. All samples were collected along with
informed consent and in full accordance with the principles of the Declaration of Helsinki by
the World Medical Association. All volunteers had paternal lineages originating from the
traditional Turkish Cypriot settlements throughout the island, which corresponded to 138
different villages, towns or cities in total. Figure 1 depicts the precise geographical
distribution of these self-stated settlements provided by each volunteer. These locations
were queried through the Google Maps application programming interface
(https://www.google.com/maps) to obtain the corresponding geographic coordinates, which
were then plotted on a map using an in-house web application (Sevay et al. manuscript in
preparation).



There is not one bit of evidence to support your assertion about
politically motivated studies
but quite simply your comment is a politically motived and above all unsupported assertion made simply because the study does NOT fit your world view and you have to come up with a reductio ad absurdium argument on selection to prove it. Your comment also ignores the point that it is not possible to tell (except by testing) what the genetic tests would show - so how can one be certain in identifying before testing that the 380 randomnly selected would produce a particular result ?

As it is Genes reveal West African heritage of some white Brits https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11018-genes-reveal-west-african-heritage-of-white-brits/ :-) :-) - and that highlights the folly of your argument about selectivity.

I BTW (but for any instances of Cockolding) can trace my Male direct line of British Ancestry through named individuals to about 1430, likely from the Essex /Suffolk border region. I do not exclude any possibilities about my ancestry otherwise where I know one 3 generations before (my paternal great grandmother on my father's side) was Irish.
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Sotos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:15 pm

"randomly selected volunteers" is an oxymoron. They can not be both "randomly selected" and "volunteers". This is not a "folly" but a scientific fact:

The term volunteer bias refers to a specific bias that can occur when the subjects who volunteer to participate in a research project are different in some ways from the general population. If this occurs, the researcher has sampled only a subset of the population, and consequently, the data gathered are not representative of all people, merely of those that choose to volunteer. Volunteer bias is a challenge to the external validity of any research project.

http://methods.sagepub.com/reference/en ... n/n492.xml

My own comment is not "politically motivated" but based on historical facts and reason. The historical fact is that 10s of thousands of Anatolians were transferred to Cyprus, something which your own links do not dispute. Also, the fact that TCs speak Turkish points to the reasonable conclusion that the majority of them are not native to Cyprus, otherwise they would just be Muslims who spoke Greek, just like Muslim Albanians speak the same language as the Christian Albanians, or like the Muslim Bosnians speak the same Slavic language as the Christian Slavs of the same region.
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Sotos » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:47 pm

repulsewarrior wrote:...i beg to differ. I suggest that it implies that there was or is an overwhelming majority, a Cypriot way, and that assimilation of some kind occurred toward it.


Assimilation is something that can happen to a minority which is assimilated into a larger group, not the other way around. The majority of of the Muslim community were Anatolians who were brought to Cyprus during Ottoman rule, and then there was a comparatively smaller number of Greek Cypriots who became Muslim during Ottoman rule. This smaller group of "Greek Muslims" was gradually assimilated into the larger group of "Anatolian Muslims". For example I remember a TC member here who wrote that his grandmother's first language was Greek. But then his grandmother married his grandfather who was a Turk. Their children (including his mother or father) were Muslims with Turkish names, and the grandchildren (himself) already spoke little or no Greek. This is how assimilation gradually happens. If the Greek speaking Muslims were the majority of the Muslim community, then the assimilation would have happened in reverse, and the Greek Muslims would assimilate the Anatolian Muslims.
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby Cap » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:27 pm

...if what is Cypriot exists, it implies that beyond Nationalism, Cypriots (before a "Greece" or a "Turkey",) for thousands of years have sustained themselves as Cypriots through social-exchange.


You nailed it RW.

It's like trying to convince the United States and Canada that they don't exist.
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Re: Greek Tragedy

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:18 am

...you see Sotos it is hard for me to get my head wrapped around the idea that Cypriots didn't exist before the Hellenic rise, let's say four thousand years ago.

Even five thousand years ago i suggest if Greek was spoken, the Greeks of the Golden Age would have spoken a language adapted from it (the language of Greeks before them, like Cretans, and Cypriots).

...i choose to be different. I see Cyprus, the Problem, in Cyprus, as an opportunity as a Greek to demonstrate perhaps something independent of Greece, something Greek just the same. When i think of how many countries have English, or Spanish, or French, as their maternal tongue, i weep that there are only two which speak Greek; given its History as a lingua franca which at one point spanned half the world. Am i less a Greek because Greece does not represent to me, "my Country"? Is it folly to believe that anyone who loves Greek and speaks it is welcome as a Greek, and is it folly to believe that Greeks are gracious hosts, too generous if it is possible? Greeks are Citizens of the world

...roots, if we were forcibly moved around (geographically) by our DNA, what a world that would be. (my guess, i would be living 'peacefully' in Cyprus right now: but that's beside the point).
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