Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Bananiot unfortunately the majority of GCs are exactly like hermes and piratis who will never accept their share of the blame for the events which lead us to the division of today. The positive side of their stance is that we TCs can see clearly that nothing has really changed, the mentality of the 1960s is still alive and kicking in the south which is to force us into minority status thus giving them the freedom to do as they wish be it good or bad. We TCs have to understand this mindset and continue ti dig our heels in for the long haul....no amount of meetings or goodwill will resolve this GC viewpoint, the talks will fail once again and both sides will individually push for their own agenda. As I have said on the past TCs will never accept to take a jump of faith just because the GCs now chant democracy and human rights for all, we are prepared to continue as we are or even far worse as the alternative is not only a big upheaval but is riddled with risks especially with people like hermes and piratis.

Its not the scalpel of democracy and human rights we oppose but the GC surgeon who will operate.

[Bananiot]

GR wrote

By the same token, I'm sure he also means that Turkish Cypriots must accept their extinct fate!

Would that be correct Bananiot?

Spot on GR. Well done!

Hermes wrote

You blame both sides equally therefore we ought to accept blame equally therefore we ought to divide the island equally in some sort of confederation and then the Cyprus problem would be "solved". This runs counter to the UN resolutions and international law which maintain that the invasion of 1974 was illegal and an unjustified assault on the sovereignty of the island.

Again Hermes, you create your own daemons and you fight them. You make false assumptions and you dwell on them, all the time. I do not blame both sides, you know. I blame my side more than the TC side. I will write about this in a minute.

The solution I want for Cyprus is: One country, one people, one sovereignty etc, etc. But, what I want, what you want, what Piratis wants, is beyond my reach now, not because the foreigners imposed their will on us, but because at key moments in our recent history we behaved irresponsibly. For example, we could have easily contained TMT's drive for taksim, but instead of being generous to the ordinary TC's and give them proper protection, we turned against them, inflicting greater damage that TMT could ever do. It is nearing Xmas now but in 1963, we raided the Nicosia General Hospital and took out of their beds all the TC patients. Their remains are now being discovered in wells at Parisinos. Is this the way to respond to TMT, by victimising the ordinary TC's and in essence handing them gift-wrapped to the extremists?

You keep repeating that the UN consider the invasion (they refer to it as intervention) to be illegal. If this is so clearly obvious, why in the name of God do these Institutions support an agreed and compromise solution and call upon both, the victim and the invader, to work together towards this end? Can you really not see the paradox? Are you happy to see the UN decide for our future? To tell us what the solution should be? I find it difficult to understand how people like you refer with such an ease to the UN resolutions, but when the UN decides to become more involved, we shout "no arbitration, no asphyxiating time frames". How long more before the UN gets fed up with us? Who will help us then?

[Hermes]

I do not blame both sides, you know. I blame my side more than the TC side... The solution I want for Cyprus is: One country, one people, one sovereignty etc, etc. But, what I want, what you want, what Piratis wants, is beyond my reach now, not because the foreigners imposed their will on us, but because at key moments in our recent history we behaved irresponsibly.

So the island's future settlement and sovereignty is to be determined on the basis of who has behaved most "irresponsibly" during the island's recent history as you put it? Okay. I'll go along with this.

On this basis I claim the whole of the island as Greek Cypriot due to the fact that in 1974 the Turkish army committed untold atrocities during the invasion and subsequent occupation. Since 1974 the TCs have also behaved "irresponsibly" in siding with the occupation authorities in support of the "trnc" in direct violation of the island's sovereignty. The irresponsibility, violence and enforced partition of the island by the Turkish side, aided and abetted by the TCs, during the island's recent history, far exceeds any crimes committed by the GCs in the clashes of the 1960s.

For this reason of Turkish and TC "irresponsibility", violence, ethnic cleansing and other partitionist crimes we cannot accept anything other than a unified independent country. This is the punishment of the Turkish side for their irresponsible part in the events of the island's recent history. As you know I do not blame both sides. I blame the other side more than my side. And at this key moment in our recent history the Turkish side behaved not just irresponsibly, but criminally. They are liable for crimes of ethnic cleansing, mass murder, rape and the subsequent systematic destruction of the island's heritage. Because of this they cannot be expected to impose their will on the island and benefit from these crimes. That would be rewarding acts of criminality and irresponsibility, as you put it.

After all, why should the victims of such actions be made to suffer twice over? That wouldn't make sense, would it? So, on the basis of your logic, that the party which has behaved most "irresponsibly" should be made to pay, I rest my case. Note that this is backed by the EU, the UN and international law, which is very clear as to who the guilty party is in the case of the invasion and occupation of Cyprus!

[Hermes]

You keep repeating that the UN consider the invasion (they refer to it as intervention) to be illegal. If this is so clearly obvious, why in the name of God do these Institutions support an agreed and compromise solution and call upon both, the victim and the invader, to work together towards this end? Can you really not see the paradox? Are you happy to see the UN decide for our future? To tell us what the solution should be? I find it difficult to understand how people like you refer with such an ease to the UN resolutions, but when the UN decides to become more involved, we shout "no arbitration, no asphyxiating time frames". How long more before the UN gets fed up with us? Who will help us then?

There is no paradox. You misunderstand the nature of a "compromise" solution. Allow me to clarify. The EU General Affairs Council three days ago issued a report which “expects Turkey to actively support the ongoing negotiations aimed at a fair, comprehensive and viable settlement of the Cyprus problem within the UN framework, in accordance with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and in line with the principles on which the Union is founded,“ adding that “Turkey’s commitment and contribution in concrete terms to such a comprehensive settlement is crucial."

I hope that makes it clear that no-one is expecting a solution that would be unfair, unviable and outside the UN framework. You're not asking for that either, are you? Why would you? So why raise this issue?

[Viewpoint]

I do not blame both sides, you know. I blame my side more than the TC side... The solution I want for Cyprus is: One country, one people, one sovereignty etc, etc. But, what I want, what you want, what Piratis wants, is beyond my reach now, not because the foreigners imposed their will on us, but because at key moments in our recent history we behaved irresponsibly.

So the island's future settlement and sovereignty is to be determined on the basis of who has behaved most "irresponsibly" during the island's recent history as you put it? Okay. I'll go along with this.

On this basis I claim the whole of the island as Greek Cypriot due to the fact that in 1974 the Turkish army committed untold atrocities during the invasion and subsequent occupation. Since 1974 the TCs have also behaved "irresponsibly" in siding with the occupation authorities in support of the "trnc" in direct violation of the island's sovereignty. The irresponsibility, violence and enforced partition of the island by the Turkish side, aided and abetted by the TCs, during the island's recent history, far exceeds any crimes committed by the GCs in the clashes of the 1960s.

For this reason of Turkish and TC "irresponsibility", violence, ethnic cleansing and other partitionist crimes we cannot accept anything other than a unified independent country. This is the punishment of the Turkish side for their irresponsible part in the events of the island's recent history. As you know I do not blame both sides. I blame the other side more than my side. And at this key moment in our recent history the Turkish side behaved not just irresponsibly, but criminally. They are liable for crimes of ethnic cleansing, mass murder, rape and the subsequent systematic destruction of the island's heritage. Because of this they cannot be expected to impose their will on the island and benefit from these crimes. That would be rewarding acts of criminality and irresponsibility, as you put it.

After all, why should the victims of such actions be made to suffer twice over? That wouldn't make sense, would it? So, on the basis of your logic, that the party which has behaved most "irresponsibly" should be made to pay, I rest my case. Note that this is backed by the EU, the UN and international law, which is very clear as to who the guilty party is in the case of the invasion and occupation of Cyprus!

You were told not to play with bombs but you didnt listen and it exploded in your face, now you blame the bomb for your blindness. Typically GC logic blame everyone else but yourself.

[Hermes]

You were told not to play with bombs but you didnt listen and it exploded in your face, now you blame the bomb for your blindness. Typically GC logic blame everyone else but yourself.

VP, you should at least try to read and understand the post and its context instead of just responding with your usual childish platitudes. I know it's hard for you but I'm really not interested in playing silly games with you. I was responding to a post by Bananiot in which he made an assertion I thought was illogical. Please don't feel you have to have a say all the time. Especially if you have nothing to add to the debate.

[Bananiot]

I am sorry Hermes but you do not want to listen. You refer to one EU report but you ignore at the same time the big picture, that is, the essence of what the UN wants. The part you quoted of the EU General Affairs Council, and included "Turkey is asked to actively support the negotiations aimed at a fair, comprehensive and viable settlement of the Cyprus problem within the UN framework, in accordance with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and in line with the principles on which the Union is founded" contradicts just about everything you through at me in this argument. It is obvious that the EU does not get involved with the political issue of Cyprus. The EU square and fairly supports the efforts of the United Nations.This is what the Security Council of the UN has been telling us for many years now:

Reaffirms its position that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as described in the relevant Security Council resolutions, in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession;

I am very happy with the above. This is the best we can get, if ever we get it. I am a realist, I cannot walk on the clouds like some do. There is so much fascination in pursuing the rational path, it actually works, it solves problems.

How about you?

[Hermes]

I am sorry Hermes but you do not want to listen. You refer to one UN report but ignore the full picture, that is the essence of what the UN wants. The part you quoted of the EU General Affairs Council, and included "Turkey is asked to actively support the negotiations aimed at a fair, comprehensive and viable settlement of the Cyprus problem within the UN framework, in accordance with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions and in line with the principles on which the Union is founded" contradicts just about everything you through at me in this argument. It is obvious that the EU does not get involved with the political issue of Cyprus. The EU square and fairly supports the efforts of the United Nations.This is what the Security Council of the UN has been telling us for many years now:

Reaffirms its position that a Cyprus settlement must be based on a State of Cyprus with a single sovereignty and international personality and a single citizenship, with its independence and territorial integrity safeguarded, and comprising two politically equal communities as described in the relevant Security Council resolutions, in a bi-communal and bi-zonal federation, and that such a settlement must exclude union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession;

I am very happy with the above. This is the best we can get, if ever we get it. I am a realist, I cannot walk on the clouds like some do. There is so much fascination in pursuing the rational path, it actually works, it solves problems.

How about you?

Your point is muddled. I know the EU supports the UN process. That's why I quoted it. I don't see how the EU General Affairs Council statement contradicts it. That's why I posted it. I have no problems with the UN quote you posted either. What it doesn't advocate is a confederation or permanent derogations or political inequality. Unfortunately, Turkey is clearly not sticking to the UN guidelines. This is widely understood, isn't it?

[Viewpoint]

You were told not to play with bombs but you didnt listen and it exploded in your face, now you blame the bomb for your blindness. Typically GC logic blame everyone else but yourself.

VP, you should at least try to read and understand the post and its context instead of just responding with your usual childish platitudes. I know it's hard for you but I'm really not interested in playing silly games with you. I was responding to a post by Bananiot in which he made an assertion I thought was illogical. Please don't feel you have to have a say all the time. Especially if you have nothing to add to the debate.

I understand, you do not have the answer and know full well that it was the GCs who triggered off the problems which resulted in the division we have today but being so brain washed you cannot admit this fact, you cant it would probably make you physically sick. I will refrain from responding to your posts as they have shown you are lacking in knowledge of what really happened in the past, you have absolutely no idea or understanding of the TC viewpoint and continue to display a very one sided despot stance

Bananiot is more than a match for you, ahhhhhhh if only there were more GCs like him the problem would be solved today..

[Hermes]

I understand, you do not have the answer and know full well that it was the GCs who triggered off the problems which resulted in the division we have today but being so brain washed you cannot admit this fact, you cant it would probably make you physically sick. I will refrain from responding to your posts.

Unfortunately, VP it's because I understand the TCs only too well that you seem to want to respond to my posts continually. I'm glad you've chosen to refrain posting in future as it gets us nowhere and wastes everyone's time.

I will answer your post though because it contains a whopping lie. I don't know what makes you think I " know full well it was the GCs who triggered off the problems which resulted in the division". What gives you that ridiculous impression? For the record, I have always maintained that the TCs are still pursuing Turkey's policies of violently-enforced self-segregation or "taksim". Just as they did in 1963 when inter-communal violence broke-out between the Greek and Turkish-Cypriots. President Makarios’s proposal for amending the Constitution was exactly the excuse that the Turkish Government was looking for to put the plan of partition of Cyprus into effect.

It's not as if the facts are in doubt that Turkish officers resorted to forcible movement of sections of the Turkish-Cypriot population, not for protection, as it would seem. Rather, it was to create compact Turkish areas and create a geographical separation on the island, between her people. We even have the TC Vice-President making statements in regard to the crisis that the Constitution of Cyprus “no longer existed because there was no possibility of the Turkish and Greek communities of living together on the island.” In addition, he was asked if he wanted Cyprus partitioned between the Turkish minority and Greek majority, he replied, “Call it partition if you like.” Also on record, the former Vice-President of Turkey, Kemal Satir, in a public statement said, “Cyprus will be divided into two sections, one of which will join Turkey.” The then Foreign Minister of Turkey, in an Athens newspaper added, “the radical solution… would be to cede one part of Cyprus to Greece and the other, closest to the Turkish Asiatic coast, to Turkey.”

Turkey never hid its intentions. It's not a big secret. A decade later the Turkish invasion was launched, on the pretext of "saving" the TCs, but its real goal was to put Turkey's partition plans into effect. Only Turkey has discovered to its cost that international law is an obstacle to partition. To overcome this problem Turkey needs the GCs to agree to partition. And the GCs are simply unwilling to cede sovereignty of the island to Turkey. At any price. And so we have a stand off but with time, economics and the law not working to Turkey's favour or advantage.

Even though the majority of GCs abandoned enosis in the 1960s and are today overwhelmingly in favour of Cypriot independence, the TC and TMT policies of self-segregation and partition are still with us today. Of the two communities, the TCs are the ones who are stuck in the past, unable to move on. Until the TCs renounce their own adherence to violent self-segregation, their inheritance from the TMT terrorists, then they will be always stuck in the 1960s, sacrificing their own people and community to the interests of Ankara.