Cyprus-Forum.com

[bg_turk]

close the "borders" , and lets who you are going to convince that we represent all cypriots.
close it, if you have the guts.
close it, and watch partition realising...that is if we care.

Precisely, closing the borders would be the worst mistake of the Greek Cypriot leadership. Such an act will render the RoC illegitimate, defunct and void.
Additionally such an act would be against EU law and the principle of free movement.

[Michael]

close the "borders" , and lets who you are going to convince that we represent all cypriots.
close it, if you have the guts.
close it, and watch partition realising...that is if we care.

Precisely, closing the borders would be the worst mistake of the Greek Cypriot leadership. Such an act will render the RoC illegitimate, defunct and void.
Additionally such an act would be against EU law and the principle of free movement.

Well if you say so Mr Turk then we will leave them open, why don’t you come over as well. You can travel freely cant you?

Where do you pick up this jurisprudential nonsense? It is Denktash propaganda at its most laughable. Only in your wettest fantasy would these events occur. If the R.O.C closed the crossing it will be perfectly legal.

And don’t bother cutting and pasting posters of Turkish “Judges” with periwig Fez’s and large unshaven mustachios directing guilty verdicts to a suitable chastised Cyprus. You do, like most things, make it up as you go along.

[cypezokyli]

if we close the "borders" we admit that they do exist.
ofcource closing the RoC closing the "borders" will legalISE the "trnc" .
if we refuse to give tcs their rights , or close the borders or...or.. - then the legality on which we have based our strategy and our propaganda will fall to pieces.

even if money goes to the north, the gains by closing the "borders" will be minimal compared to the costs.

hey, michael. did you meet up to now any tcs ? try it. it could be that many of your stereotypes, will dissapear

[Michael]

if we close the "borders" we admit that they do exist.
ofcource closing the RoC closing the "borders" will legalISE the "trnc" .
if we refuse to give tcs their rights , or close the borders or...or.. - then the legality on which we have based our strategy and our propaganda will fall to pieces.

even if money goes to the north, the gains by closing the "borders" will be minimal compared to the costs.

hey, michael. did you meet up to now any tcs ? try it. it could be that many of your stereotypes, will dissapear

I do not propose to close the border. There is no border, just crossings. A border would imply that two sovereign states existed along a mutual land or sea area. This is patently not true.

As I said it’s too late for closing anything, that would play straight in the hands of that disgusting man of Straw. What I have said is that stricter controls are required. Certainly, English German Expats should not be allowed to cross at will. These people are criminals. If they do, then they should be thrown in jail. I am talking about self restraint from Greeks. With every penny spent in that Bantustan, it extends its life by another day. I say again, Greeks that spend money in the occupied areas are nothing short of traitors. Judas had thirty pieces of silver. Our traitors have sold out very cheaply. A night at a sleazy Kyrenian cabaret and fish supper.

[Simon]

cypezokyli said

hey, michael. did you meet up to now any tcs ? try it. it could be that many of your stereotypes, will dissapear

It is not about individual TCs and how lovely and nice they may be. The problem is 200,000 GCs kicked out of their homes, unable to return, many innocent citizens dying because of the invasion, and still today many fundamental human rights being violated, which has been continuing for over 30 years. I could meet 100 TCs who could be the most lovely people in the world, but it would still not deter me from hating the invasion and occupation one jot.

The more I listen to you Cypezokyli I realise that you do not particularly care about how many GCs get their land back and the future success of the RoC. You seem to think that wanting the best for your country and your fellow Greeks equals evil nationalism. If you look at the dictionary to what nationalism means, I don't actually think that I fall into that bracket, as I support the EU, UN, NATO etc. I support international co-operation and I like 99% of people in the world do not like war. But if war is the only way to get justice, then it cannot be ruled out as an option. You seem to think that you are a reformed character now you have turned your back on going to protests etc. However, I view it differently. When I view your posts, you seem like a person who onced believed Cyprus could become free, but now you have given up all hope. I detected this from your previous posts which stated that because we have lost the war, there is a limit that we can demand (even if our demands are simply human rights which are taken for granted in other countries). This is why you now consistently advocate the TC side, consistently argue against legitimate GC viewpoints, and believe the best way for a solution is to give TCs EVERYTHING they ask. If this is not true, then all I can say is, from the posts I have read, this is the indication I have been receiving.

Bg Turk you complain about the economic sanctions that TCs are under, but ask yourself why the RoC and every other country bar Turkey has these sanctions in place. What do you expect? The RoC to just totally accept the invasion, occupation and impose absolutely no penalties so your pseudo state can continue undeterred? If TCs are supporting the illegal regime, what do you expect the reaction of the RoC will be? End the occupation, remove all occupying forces, allow GCs to go home, go back to the 1960 Agreements (which was initially a major compromise for us anyway) and you will see every single sanction lifted.

[cypezokyli]

first, i come from a refuggee family myself. i do care about the number of refuggees that will return.
if you believe that you have found the way that all refuggees will return - let me know.
the way i see it , more refugees will be allowed to return if we manage to change some ideas that are stuck into tcs heads. and our repeating of war, doesnot help as far as i am concerned. moreover so long we dont sit on the negotiating table - more gc property is getting build day by day - and i am sad that i dont believe that all these new houses will ever fall down. i dont trust neither our politicians nor the UN nor the EU, that they will bring a solution that will give back to the gcs all that land that it is currently getting build.
hope you right and i am wrong. but i am more concerned than u think. i disagree with the way we choose to solve it, and i strongly believe that it is against the refuggees benefits.

war can only bring more injustice. even if it is "the only way". war is only justified only as a means of self-defence.

i dont give the tcs everything. i am against partition as you may have noticed. may it be from gcs or tcs
no i havent given up hope yet. it depends on what you hope for

so let me one again ask the question and hopefelly this time i will get an answer :
tell me HOW we will achieve the return of all refuggees , and i will support you.
its not enough saying what we want. its the how we can achieve it that you are not giving me.

[Simon]

war is only justified only as a means of self-defence.

It would be in self-defence! Our island has been invaded and is occupied. Don't misunderstand me however, I do not want war and do not think it is necessary, as talks look like they will eventually re-start this year.

if you believe that you have found the way that all refuggees will return - let me know.

I do not believe that all refugees can or would even want to return. Some perhaps have new homes and are happy with where they are now, as they may have been given a TC home in return. But the vast majority who do want to return, should be able to. I believe this could happen in many different solutions, one being a return to the 1960 Treaties. All TCs in stolen homes would have to be re-housed or have their homes back in the south. All settlers who have no ties to Cyprus - i.e. not married to citizen of RoC etc, should leave. There are other solutions. However, I have found that proportional and fair solutions that have been proposed are opposed by TCs and indeed yourself. I can only assume that they oppose proportionality because they are greedy and are just out to get what they can.

I agree that we must get round a negotiating table. I understand that you are against partition and so am I. However, I am against eternal violation of our human rights more. That is why I suggested the 80/20 split as this agreement would have ended the violations (even though all settlers would not be able to return) and would have been proportionate. However, I agree that it would not have been ideal. I can not give a magic formula, which has not previously been suggested by others. I can only throw out ideas, but these are futile unless TCs agree to fairness. I become disillusioned when TCs blatantly reject what is fair and proportional, seemingly just wanting more and more concessions from GCs without making any in return. I ask you again, what serious concession has the TC side ever really given. They wanted disproportional power sharing or partition from the beginning. At the moment they have partition, if that ever ends, it will result in disproportional power-sharing it seems, so is it any wonder I get frustrated when you side with TCs in every debate.

[cypezokyli]

finally some sense.
some comments though.
- u didnot tell me how we get to achieve that. i dont disagree with the "should", but thats a normative statement, and doesnot unfortunately ask my question.
- most of the tcs houses in the south are destroyed.
- the reason i have accepted the tcs veto, is bc i believe that it is the ONLY way to achieve a solution accepted by both sides. once again, tell me how u can achieve that and i support you.

power sharing, is not the drakula. it can work. we can make it work, if we want to avoid partition.

[Simon]

u didnot tell me how we get to achieve that. i dont disagree with the "should", but thats a normative statement, and doesnot unfortunately ask my question.

I assume you are referring to the refugees. Well, they can return home by:

1) We agree to go back to the 1960 Treaty. This would mean the TRNC dissolved, GCs could go back home if they wish. Those who choose to, the TC living there must be re-housed. Either with a home in the south if their home was destroyed, or simply re-housed elsewhere in Cyprus, even if this means new building work having to commence, which could be funded by Greece, RoC and Turkey. Further, those settlers who have not ties to Cyprus would leave, which may greatly reduce the problem of GCs going back home in itself.

Some may prefer compensation than returning to their home. Therefore, it may be that the majority who do wish to return, can do so.

I prefer this because under this solution, I believe all who want to go home could potentially do so.

the reason i have accepted the tcs veto, is bc i believe that it is the ONLY way to achieve a solution accepted by both sides

I do not think a veto is necessary any longer. I think it will only enhance the divide between the two sides and may prove unworkable if the TCs abuse it, which I suspect they will - especially if some still have permanent partition in their hearts. However, if we go back to the 1960 Agreements, then I suppose I and many others would have to accept it. But TCs demanding more concessions and giving nothing in return is not viable.

power sharing, is not the drakula. it can work. we can make it work, if we want to avoid partition.

I agree, it isn't and it probably can work, BUT ONLY if it based on proportionality and justice. It will not work if the TC side get more than they should because they are reaping the benefits from the spoils of winning a war.

[bg_turk]

no i havent given up hope yet. .

Your idealism and persistence never cease to amaze me Cyp, but some are not as strong as you are:

Peacemakers lose hope for quick end to Cyprus divide