Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

stop believing in your own propaganda .....

It is not MY propaganda, these are numbers produced by credible organisations, the leading one of which is to all intents and purposes a Cypriot one, based on long term rigorous surveys. But you would have me not believe their figures but instead believe yours, an anonymous poster on a obscure forum based on as far as I can tell nothing at all ? Is this is what you are suggesting to me is a 'rational' course of action ?

The price of the birds you have been advertising (Latest price per dozen 80 Euros!!! Who can afford the staff) Read my posts.

I have never advertised a price of a bird.

The species caught: Two reports written by the keepers of the truth vary widely!! Read my previous posts

No they do not.

A large number of birds listed in statistics by the keepers of the truth are either too few to be hunted, too large to be caught by the lime sticks or not eaten by the Cypriots. The few that are hunted are not at risk. In fact are on the increase in Europe. Read my previous posts and the reports by BirdLife international.

The reason why both limestick and mist nets are banned as a means of hunting is that they are INDISCRIMINATE forms of hunting. You can not set a limestick or a mist net that will ONLY catch un endangered species. You keep claiming that you can but the claim is just bollocks.

About the causes of bird depletion read my previous post as well as those of RSPB, BirdLife etc. All are pointing towards the same direction and that’s not towards Cyprus. Read my previous posts.

The claim that the damage done by illegal trapping in Cyprus (and elsewhere) to endangered species is so small it is statistically irrelevant to their on going survival is just bollocks. No one in this field of expertise believes this is true.

How many people are involved in bird trapping?

I do not know. How many people are involved in the sale of illicit drugs in the RoC ? Or prostitution ? Or any other illegal activity ? Are you REALLY going to claim that unless I can give an accurate credible absolute number there can be no such activity ?

How many restaurants serve ambeloboulia? (I know of none)

How many people you know sell drugs ? Have you sought them out ? Have you asked around ? Or is it you just do not personally know anyone who has tried to sell you drugs un invited by you , so therefore you claim there can not be any drug dealers ? If you want to find restaurants where you can purchase ambeloboulia it is not hard just as it is not that hard to find illicit drugs for sale.

How many people eat ambelopoulia? (I know of none)

The detailed and rigorous bi annual surveys conducted by Birdlife Cyprus every year for over 10 years now do not seek to measure how many people are eating ambelopoulia, they seek to measure how much illegal trapping activity there is year and how that is varying from year to year. Is you argument really 'I do not personally know anyone who eats them (other than the Government minister who openly stated on TV they did perhaps) so therefore all the data meticulously produced by Birdlife Cyprus must be meaningless ?

and I tire of this now. It has all been said before.

At the end of the day we have serious professional experts who have been conducting rigorous bi annual surveys for over a decade and we have you. I know which to me is the more credible on this subject. You try and make out that the evidence is produced by some 'clique' who makes their living out of presenting false and exaggerated figures for their own benefit , yet you ignore that Birdlife Cyprus is bankrolled by foundations set up by a prominent Cypriot business family. So what is their 'angle' ? Why would they set up foundations to over exaggerate and distort the truth of this issue ? What possible motive is there for that ? A much simpler explanation is that the people who fund Birdlife Cyprus and who work for it do so because they care about this issue and they seek to produce the best statistical information about the extent of illegal trapping and you actually, just like GiG have no actual interest other than to try and downplay the real extent and effects of the problem, despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

[Lordo]

fascists as well as racists all over the world are exactly the same. they see any criticism of anything in their country as an attack on them. you are wasting your breath with this little beauty. with her, milk is blue, the fact that it is white is irrelevant as she is wearing heavily blue tinted glasses. the world to her is greek and we are lucky to be allowed to breathe the air cause the air is greek too.

god oh mighty give mankind patience.

It can happen without blue-tinted glasses. I had a condition known as cyanopsia for about 20 minutes a couple of weeks ago and white things turned blue!

lets hope you never get it again, otherwise we will have to call you timaki.

[miltiades]

Ambelopulia Plc is run by the Mafia, the ignorant peasants who consider these beautiful birds a delicacy, are a disgrace .

[erolz66]

Sorry, Milty. You're not being very logical here - unless you think that Cypriots are unique in having such problems. Do you? Do you really think there is something inherently different in Cypriots that causes "attitudes" to animals, a trait of some sort, that does not exist in let's say your average Brit (seeing as they are valued as the 'norm' around here). Because if that's what you think (and failing to say directly) then you join the ranks of the racists. These racists have divided our country on such groundless assertions as yours.

Few posters here as consistently and for as long attribute negative traits to groups based on their ethnicity as you GiG. You do it constantly in regards to 'Turks' or anything 'Turkish'. Not only that you apply such ethnic labels according to your own criteria, divorced from any actual reality, as suits your propaganda needs.

If you admit that the same problems exist elsewhere (that's not the same as saying we shouldn't all keep moving forward for improvements or that we should ignore atrocities) then why single out Cyprus? In doing so, you are advertising to the world something that is not true - you are making out something we should all be generally aware of, throughout the world, seem like it's unique to Cyprus and everyone can turn a blind eye to what happens in their own homes. It excuses the rest of the world from atrocities. This is about ending suffering wherever it exists.

No body is singling out Cyprus and that you claim they are is just another indication of your 'problem', just as the mother with the addict son might bewail to anyone who confronts her with this reality 'why do you single out my son, why do you not talk of the 100's of millions of addicts the world over ?' When I lived in the UK I was involved in conservation efforts in the UK. Since living in Cyprus I have been involved in such here in Cyprus both in the South AND in the North. Your whole premise is flawed. This is a Cyprus forum so we are discussing the issue as it relates to Cyprus. Bullshit unsupported claims like

The RoC has been doing a brilliant job criminalizing this practice....

and

From my own observations and inquiries; such a habit is no longer practiced in normal circles and is not supported by even the most stuck-in-the past peasants of Paphos. Even when it was practiced, it never posed the dangers to extinction we are told exist.

are NOTHING to do with admitting the problem exists here and ensuring we continue to do better here ands elsewhere in the future and EVERYTHING to do with trying to deny the reality HERE. There is a problem in Cyprus and yes there are problems elsewhere but we are here and talking about here and the problem is especially acute here, not because Cypriots (greek or turk) are ethnically 'worse' in this regard to other ethnicities but simply because of the geographical location of Cyprus in realtion to the migratory patterns of many endangered species.

By behaving in this myopic way, Milty, you make matters worse ....

The mother of the herion addict who does every thing she can to deny the reality of her sons addiction is of little use in helping her son through such an addiction. Her denial, her shouts of 'do not look to my son look to others' simply makes matters worse. When you murder the truth, as you so consistently do GiG, you can never hope to make anything better. All you can hope for is to fool some into thinking they are better when in fact they are not and even that is a vain hope. This is what you do.

[The subaltern]

Erolz66,
I am sorry you are tired! Not so tired when you are making your ridiculous propaganda.
Your answers given to my questions are just ridiculous.

(1)My comment: (was not a question): Stop believing in your own propaganda

Your answer: “is not MY propaganda numbers (etc) are produced by credible organizations” etc but “you could have me not believe their figures (of the credible organizations) but instead believe yours” I HAVE PRODUCED NO FIGURES MATE, AND NEITHER STATISTICS NOR TABLES. I QUESTION YOURS. Yes, I am “an anonymous poster on an obscure forum” How come you bother to post your rubbish in an obscure forum too? BTW there are 11000+ hits!! Not bad for an obscure forum. (Of course I do not know if all the hits are made by you or the couple of regular pensioners that have forgotten the rubbish they have posted so they visit the side in order to remind themselves of what they have written)
And of your other bit “the credible organization” What credible organization are you referring to? Are you really talking about the organizations that produce statistics/tables so ridiculous that’s an insult to the intelligence even of the most ignorant reader of this forum? Read page 14 here.

(2)Regarding the price of birds: (80 euros per dozen)

Your answer: “I have never advertised a price of a bird” and neither have the trappers or restaurants. Who has though? It’s all over in the foreign press. I assume its info dished out by your propaganda machine. (And do not take it personal. When I use YOU, I mean the organization you are supporting)

(3)My question. Species caught: “Two reports written by the keepers of the truth vary widely”

Your answer: “No they do not” Is this answer?
Regarding the statistics of species caught read my post on page 14. The evidence is all there. And that’s your evidence not mine.

(4)My question: A large number of birds listed in the statistics….are either too few to be hunted, too large to be caught on lime sticks or not eaten by the Cypriots”

Your answer veers into that “both (netting and lime sticks) are indiscriminate forms of hunting” Who says so? The keepers of the truth! Directed at whom? Towards people who have no idea of the difference between mists nets and lime stick trapping. (Read my previous posts)

Look mate. You have created a problem that had never existed before. Trapping would have been dealt with internally by the Cypriots themselves. You and your foreign mates and your propaganda machine have created a problem. Through your propaganda, you have created a “mafia”, “criminals”, “barbarians”, “hungry Cypriots” that eat the British birds etc., in order to justify your actions. Read your own propaganda. It’s all in your reports and foreign media. Do you want references? Read my posts and your reports. It’s all there.
We have bitter experience of foreigners interfering in the internal affairs of Cyprus, for their own interests of course. Stop it! Leave the Cypriots alone to find solutions to what concerns them, unless of course you consider them so stupid as to be incapable of such a thing.

(5)My question about bird depletion etc.

Your answer: No answer. Instead a rand about “The claim that the damage done by illegal trapping in Cyprus (and elsewhere) to endangered species is too small it is statistically irrelevant to their ongoing survival is just bollocks. No one in this field of expertise believes it” This is a statement mate. Give me the Cypriot contribution not what the “expertise believe” You can believe whatever you fancy for what I care. I want facts. Read my previous posts about the causes of species depletion. BTW the cats of Britain and Germany kill between themselves 105 million birds!!! (That’s not my number) Many times over of what the trappers, the keepers of the truth claim that the Cypriots kill. Do not try to full people.

(6)My question as to “how many people are involved in bird trapping?”

Your answer: “I do not know.” And you follow it with a question! “How many people are involved in the sale of illicit drugs in the ROC? Or any other illical activity “etc. Well done mate for equating bird trapping to drug taking! Let me put it in another way. I see a lot of cars in the road but not many donkeys. Can I reasonably assume that there are more car drivers in Cyprus than donkey drivers?
Making an educated guess, can I say that since there are millions of birds caught (EU estimate 12.5 million in 2001) there must be a lot of people involve in trapping, eating, and selling them?
If this is the case shouldn’t I know some of them?

Similarly as to how many people are involved in illicit drug sale must be very small otherwise you should have seen some of them around street corners selling the staff and if that was the case the hospitals/prisons would have been full of drug users and dealers. This is not the case. (Of course there are some.) Can we find out the numbers? Of course we can in the same way you work out the millions of birds caught.

You are not a past master of propaganda as yet but you are trying. Keep it up.
You know, publishing statistics on numbers of people involved in trapping, of people eating birds, number of restaurants selling them; will create a problem for you. People like me will draw some conclusions from your statistics that will not be to your liking. Can you imagine publishing data, that the 12.5 million birds were caught between 100 trappers, served in 200 restaurants and eaten by 3000 people at 80 Euros per dozen? That will create belly laughs around the globe. We can though increase the numbers of trappers, restaurants and eaters to make them more believable. But it will create a different problem. By increasing the numbers will in fact assume a lawless society controlled by “mafiosi” “barbarians” and the like. So publish only the 12.5 million since numbers of birds trapped give credence to your claims. The bigger the number the better it is for the “cause”. As I have said before: You have no case without numbers. So keep on publishing numbers that suit you! And keep out those that don’t.

You have not answered my questions!!!
And remember that your statistics/tables, reports, etc are not published by disinterested people in search of the truth, but by people with an agenda, promoted by the foreign mass media and aimed at a foreign audience with certain attitudes and beliefs similar to those of the disseminators. Statistics are just produced in order to support week arguments like yours.

That’s enough before I am accused of….

[Paphitis]

I entirely agree with your views Erolz, ....

Congratulations. Go and set up home with him in the turkish occupied area!

What you seem to be constantly doing is burying your head in the sand when it comes to unpleasant activities that take place in Cyprus.

Sorry, Milty. You're not being very logical here - unless you think that Cypriots are unique in having such problems. Do you? Do you really think there is something inherently different in Cypriots that causes "attitudes" to animals, a trait of some sort, that does not exist in let's say your average Brit (seeing as they are valued as the 'norm' around here). Because if that's what you think (and failing to say directly) then you join the ranks of the racists. These racists have divided our country on such groundless assertions as yours.

If you admit that the same problems exist elsewhere (that's not the same as saying we shouldn't all keep moving forward for improvements or that we should ignore atrocities) then why single out Cyprus? In doing so, you are advertising to the world something that is not true - you are making out something we should all be generally aware of, throughout the world, seem like it's unique to Cyprus and everyone can turn a blind eye to what happens in their own homes. It excuses the rest of the world from atrocities. This is about ending suffering wherever it exists.

By behaving in this myopic way, Milty, you make matters worse and it doesn't help the worldwide cause for humane treatment of animals.

You are a silly man!

No there is nothing inherently different.

it's just that some Cypriots like to trap small birds which are increasingly rare in Cyprus.

It is a practice that should cease completely.

Other countries have other issues, some worse and others which are not so bad.

It really is not such a big deal that there are a few conservationists (and most do seem to be Cypriot) that actively campaign against Bird trapping in Cyprus. Conservationists are active all over the world in many countries. In sophisticated western societies, they are allowed their voice.

[erolz66]

Erolz66,
I am sorry you are tired! Not so tired when you are making your ridiculous propaganda.

You can carry on trying to paint an organisation like Bird Life Cyprus as 'propagandist' with no real interest in conservation and having some hidden agenda to create lies about the state of illegal bird trapping in Cyprus but it is just not a credible argument in general and I personally know it not to be true having worked with them specifically on said surveys. I know directly from first hand experience they do not just bi annually 'make up' false numbers (to what objective you have yet to clearly explain). I know the methods they use on these surveys and how they are conducted. I know the numbers produced are real and have a close correlation to objective truth. The extrapolation of total numbers of birds killed is just that, an extrapolation and is subject to error. However they measured increase and decrease of activity year on year is highly accurate.

As to 'who says both netting and limesticks are indiscriminate methods of hunting', well everyone does, except you. This is something even a child could understand. If you hunt birds with a gun, you can identify the species of bird and decided to shoot or not shoot based on its species. This is a discriminate means of hunting. If you place lime sticks in the early morning and return to them the next day or a few days later you have no direct control over what birds get stuck to the stick. Yes some birds will be large enough to not get caught on such sticks and by choice of location you may have some very limited indirect control over the chances of catching one species over another but to claim this makes lime sticking a discriminate means of hunting, like shooting is, is indeed ridiculous.

Keep talking about me 'and your foreign mates' all you like and just ignore the reality that Birdlife Cyprus is bankrolled by a Cypriot foundation set up by a prominent Cypriot business family and is predominately run and staffed by Cypriots. Keep ignoring reality when it does not suit your propaganda need that the only people saying there is a problem are 'me and my foreign mates'.

We have bitter experience of foreigners interfering in the internal affairs of Cyprus, for their own interests of course. Stop it! Leave the Cypriots alone to find solutions to what concerns them, unless of course you consider them so stupid as to be incapable of such a thing.

So we see your true 'gripe' here, which is not really anything to do with illegal bird trapping at all but actually a chip on your shoulder about foreign interference in Cyprus. Firstly I am not a foreigner. Nor for that matter is the Leventis family that set up the foundations that fund Birdlife Cyprus 'foreign'. Or the majority that run and work for Birdlife Cyprus day to day, so your whole premise is built on a falsity in the first place. The fact is that Cypriots CHOSE to have foreign interference in Cyprus when the chose to join the European Union. The laws that were introduced outlawing illegal trapping were brought in specifically as part of the RoC EU accession process. You can not have your cake and then having eaten the cake complain that you no longer have any cake left. Leave the EU and you might be free to deal with such matters free from 'foreign interference' but even if you did you would STILL have CYPRIOTS like myself and like the Leventis family and like those who work for Birdlife Cyprus and many others besides calling for action on this issue, because as Cypriots we actually care about such things.

BTW the cats of Britain and Germany kill between themselves 105 million birds!!! (That’s not my number) Many times over of what the trappers, the keepers of the truth claim that the Cypriots kill.

And how exactly would you seek to reduce the number killed this way ? Start bringing cats to court for prosecution and jailing them in the hope it would deter other cats from doing it ? Ban and exterminate cats ? Bring in legislation requiring pet owners to prevent their cats from killing birds ? There are some causes of indiscriminate killing of endangered birds that can be stopped and others that are much harder to stop. The more that are killed by causes that are hard to stop then the more pressing and important it is to deal with those that can be stopped and when doing so would create little to no actual hardship on anyone (unlike declaring that no one can have a cat). Claiming that because 105 million are killed by cats (and your readiness to use other peoples numbers when it suits you and dismiss them as BS propaganda when it does not speaks volumes) it is unimportant and irrelevant that 1/5 a million or 1 million or 5 million are killed by illegal trappers is inanity to a profound degree. We have had this discussion before and then you just ignore this point and will no doubt do so again.

And remember that your statistics/tables, reports, etc are not published by disinterested people in search of the truth, but by people with an agenda, promoted by the foreign mass media and aimed at a foreign audience with certain attitudes and beliefs similar to those of the disseminators.

Look I can understand the argument that those who make a living from Birdlife Cyprus have some kind of vested interest in 'exaggeration' of the scale of the issue, because you could argue they make a living from such things. I actually personally know this to not be true in the case of Birdlife Cyprus having worked with the individuals concerned but I can at least understand the accusation and argument. What you have failed to so far explain is what could the possible motivation be for the Leventis family to FUND such an organisation be other than a genuine concern over these kind of issues ? What could possibly be in it for them to fund an organisation that systematically tells lies about the extent of illegal bird trapping in Cyprus ? Understanding your possible motive to try and systematically DENY the real extent, regardless of factual truth, and character assassinate those who highlight the true extent is quite easy to understand by comparisons.

[Lordo]

for any people to value animal life, the first stage is to value human life. and eventually they will value animal life too. now ask yourself a question, has the average groc national reached the point of valuing human life yet. therein lies the problem. one step at a time. salamis was not built in a day.

[miltiades]

for any people to value animal life, the first stage is to value human life. and eventually they will value animal life too. now ask yourself a question, has the average groc national reached the point of valuing human life yet. therein lies the problem. one step at a time. salamis was not built in a day.

Would that " value of human life" be of the same value as that held by your cousins in Syria ?

[GreekIslandGirl]

for any people to value animal life, the first stage is to value human life.

Of course, you might be right - and we know these frigging foreigners don't care about humans, because they don't care about the thousands of Greek Cypriots slaughtered by Turkish troops, they don't care about the plight of 200,000 Greek Cypriots threatened out of their homes and kept out of their ancestral properties and homelands by 40,000 Turkish murder-eager savages.

Nope, these foreigners only berate Cyprus for some 'cultural attitudes' just to keep us under occupation by yet more soul-less god-less foreigners.

And yes these foreigners pretend they care about birds - as they prepare to stuff their fat faces with a sage-and-onion-stuffed little robin stuffed inside a dove, which is stuffed into a partridge, which is stuffed into a duck, stuffed inside a pheasant, which is stuffed within a goose which is stuffed inside an eagle which is stuffed inside a frigging TURKEY! And they cook this enormous mountain of bird-flesh with rituals and singing and much partaking of cheap Lidl sherry! And then they use gifted electric knives to slice through this mountain of bird-flesh - layer upon layer of dead birds!

Yup, doncha just loves those cultural habits of those learned foreign folk?