Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekIslandGirl]

I worked for two different charities for over two years and support two others. I know a little of how they work and they are NOT scientific in their advertising!

You on the other hand, feel justified in shouting '"some charity states this, so it must be so, and it's not me saying Cyprus is soooo destructive, but the charity"! To borrow your own phrase, "bullshit"! Because, it is you and I've stated the reason why I think you are so keen to promote bad press (regardless of truth) against the RoC and Cypriots. You have no credibility in my eyes and nor do 'automatically' all charities - no matter who has been roped in to support them, perhaps in order to reduce their personal tax liability. There are enough idiots even here with money to throw around and pretend they are 'humanitarian'.

[erolz66]

The bi annual surveys that Birdlife Cyprus carry out are not 'advertising' and that you can describer them as such just shows the depth of your ignorance. So now the Leventis family and the funds they have set up are to be subject to your attacks are they ?

[Lordo]

erolz as far as trapping these birds go, are both sides exactly the same.

[The subaltern]

Erolz66,

First you have not attempted to answer any of my questions.

I am in fact wasting my time with you. You are not listening and you keep on repeating yourself.

However I will try one more time in the hope that you will take some notice of what I am about to say now and what I have posted before. BTW what I am doing is not really for you, it’s very unlikely to make you stop believing in your own propaganda; I am posting here because I believe that people must be given another point of view not only the views of those with an agenda. Visitors to the side of course can make up their own minds.

You tend to veer away into dark allies in the hope that I will lose you. Don’t worry I am right behind you.

I said to you to “stop believing in your own propaganda”

Your answer: “It is not My propaganda. These are the numbers produced by credible organizations. ..etc Who says so? Errolz 66!

Allow me a comment here. The so called credible organizations you are referring to are single issue organizations, like many others all over the “developed world”, I am sure you know some, that have been shaping our times and they do it through their mastery of the art of propaganda. Since public opinion is rather ambivalent on many issues the victory goes to those who possess the best propaganda machine.

In Cyprus, unfortunately, you possess the best propaganda machine; there is no doubt about it. This though does not necessarily mean that your propaganda is also the truth. Far from it; in fact since you have no internal opposition (in Cyprus) you have the monopoly of propaganda. This made you even more confident and so, you blatantly distort and manipulate evidence at your heart’s contend (these are evidence produced by the ministry of truth errolz66 is promoting. ) falsifying and exaggerating, discrediting etc. and all are done in order to promote your own agenda.

So please do not come and tell me that is not the case. Everyone is doing it; from governments to companies, except you because the Levendis foundation is financing you! I wonder whether they know what you are up to. I think I ought to write them a letter and I urge others to do the same.

To the propaganda. Millions of birds are caught by mafiosi, criminals and barbarians. Actually they are trappers. Pictures galore of trap birds, from a picture library created for the purpose, in order to arose the emotions of people and gain their support

Lime sticks and mist nets are both indiscriminate methods. Who says so… you know who… (read my previous posts)

The trappers are to be blame for the depletion of the avian species etc. Read my previous posts.

And here I like to touch upon Erols66 comment responding to mine.

My comment: “BTW cats of Britain and Germany kill between them 105 million birds. Many times over what the trappers, the keepers of the truth claim that the Cypriots kill".

Errolz66 Reply: “And how exactly would you seek to reduce the numbers killed this way? Start bringing cats to court…”etc. That’s a clever one Errolz!

Well mate, are you asking me to help you solve the problem? It’s your problem not mine. After all you are the protector of birds. I thought you have all the answers. My answer is bells.

Of course I was only pointing out to you that the Cypriot trapper is not at the top of the list of avian destruction (he only kills 3-12.5 million birds; according to the keepers of truth) if avian destruction is what you are fighting against. I somehow get this sneaking feeling that’s not your main objective. There is something else behind your championing of birds.

Will you now answer at least one of my unanswered questions?

How many reports have been compiled by the bird champions about avian destruction in the occupied areas?

And please provide some info where I can get hold of them. I am very interested in reading them.

[GreekIslandGirl]

The bi annual surveys that Birdlife Cyprus carry out are not 'advertising' and that you can describer them as such just shows the depth of your ignorance. So now the Leventis family and the funds they have set up are to be subject to your attacks are they ?

No, it shows the depths of your pointlessness as you set up your own fallacies to knock down.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Erolz66,

First you have not attempted to answer any of my questions.

I am in fact wasting my time with you. You are not listening and you keep on repeating yourself.

However I will try one more time in the hope that you will take some notice of what I am about to say now and what I have posted before. BTW what I am doing is not really for you, it’s very unlikely to make you stop believing in your own propaganda; I am posting here because I believe that people must be given another point of view not only the views of those with an agenda. Visitors to the side of course can make up their own minds.

You tend to veer away into dark allies in the hope that I will lose you. Don’t worry I am right behind you.

I said to you to “stop believing in your own propaganda”

Your answer: “It is not My propaganda. These are the numbers produced by credible organizations. ..etc Who says so? Errolz 66!

Allow me a comment here. The so called credible organizations you are referring to are single issue organizations, like many others all over the “developed world”, I am sure you know some, that have been shaping our times and they do it through their mastery of the art of propaganda. Since public opinion is rather ambivalent on many issues the victory goes to those who possess the best propaganda machine.

In Cyprus, unfortunately, you possess the best propaganda machine; there is no doubt about it. This though does not necessarily mean that your propaganda is also the truth. Far from it; in fact since you have no internal opposition (in Cyprus) you have the monopoly of propaganda. This made you even more confident and so, you blatantly distort and manipulate evidence at your heart’s contend (these are evidence produced by the ministry of truth errolz66 is promoting. ) falsifying and exaggerating, discrediting etc. and all are done in order to promote your own agenda.

So please do not come and tell me that is not the case. Everyone is doing it; from governments to companies, except you because the Levendis foundation is financing you! I wonder whether they know what you are up to. I think I ought to write them a letter and I urge others to do the same.

To the propaganda. Millions of birds are caught by mafiosi, criminals and barbarians. Actually they are trappers. Pictures galore of trap birds, from a picture library created for the purpose, in order to arose the emotions of people and gain their support

Lime sticks and mist nets are both indiscriminate methods. Who says so… you know who… (read my previous posts)

The trappers are to be blame for the depletion of the avian species etc. Read my previous posts.

And here I like to touch upon Erols66 comment responding to mine.

My comment: “BTW cats of Britain and Germany kill between them 105 million birds. Many times over what the trappers, the keepers of the truth claim that the Cypriots kill".

Errolz66 Reply: “And how exactly would you seek to reduce the numbers killed this way? Start bringing cats to court…”etc. That’s a clever one Errolz!

Well mate, are you asking me to help you solve the problem? It’s your problem not mine. After all you are the protector of birds. I thought you have all the answers. My answer is bells.

Of course I was only pointing out to you that the Cypriot trapper is not at the top of the list of avian destruction (he only kills 3-12.5 million birds; according to the keepers of truth) if avian destruction is what you are fighting against. I somehow get this sneaking feeling that’s not your main objective. There is something else behind your championing of birds.

Will you now answer at least one of my unanswered questions?

How many reports have been compiled by the bird champions about avian destruction in the occupied areas?

And please provide some info where I can get hold of them. I am very interested in reading them.

Excellent.

[erolz66]

Erolz66,

First you have not attempted to answer any of my questions.

I am in fact wasting my time with you. You are not listening and you keep on repeating yourself.

I have answered your question and I am wasting MY time because you simply refuse to listen and YOU simply go on and on making the same ridiculous claims over and over with no supporting evidence other than 'I have not seen x'.

I said to you to “stop believing in your own propaganda”

And I say to you stop believing YOUR own propaganda - so what ? What I present is based on STUDIES. Your propaganda is based on ?

Your answer: “It is not My propaganda. These are the numbers produced by credible organizations. ..etc Who says so? Errolz 66!

Who says Birdlife Cyprus is a credible organisation ? It is just me is it ? Pathetic.

http://library.cut.ac.cy/en/birdlife-cyprus

Allow me a comment here. The so called credible organizations you are referring to are single issue organizations, like many others all over the “developed world”, I am sure you know some, that have been shaping our times and they do it through their mastery of the art of propaganda. Since public opinion is rather ambivalent on many issues the victory goes to those who possess the best propaganda machine.

So unless you an organisation is not 'single issue' it has no credibility (in your eye) because all it can possibly do is produce propaganda. This is your argument ? What you 'produce' is not propaganda but the detailed bi annual reports Birdlife Cyprus produce and publish about Bird trapping are propaganda are they ? I guess by the same 'logic' the research produced by the NGO 'Cancer Research' in the UK is also just propaganda is it ?

In Cyprus, unfortunately, you possess the best propaganda machine; there is no doubt about it. This though does not necessarily mean that your propaganda is also the truth. Far from it; in fact since you have no internal opposition (in Cyprus) you have the monopoly of propaganda. This made you even more confident and so, you blatantly distort and manipulate evidence at your heart’s contend (these are evidence produced by the ministry of truth errolz66 is promoting. ) falsifying and exaggerating, discrediting etc. and all are done in order to promote your own agenda.

And just what is 'our' agenda then ? You STILL have failed to explain that ion any satisfactory way that I can see. 'We' have no internal opposition in Cyprus ? Are you serious ? What are you and GiG if not 'internal opposition' ? What are the Government ministers who have openly expressed sympathy for 'traditional hunting methods' if not opposition ? What is the minister who openly admitted to eating black cpas if not opposition ? What are those involved in illegal trapping sale and consumption of black caps if not opposition ? There IS falsifying and exaggerating, discrediting being used to promote an agenda and it is YOU and the likes of GiG using such things and the agenda is plain and obvious - to try and discredit anyone and any organisation that tries to raise awareness of the damage being done to endangered species by illegal trapping in Cyprus.

So please do not come and tell me that is not the case. Everyone is doing it; from governments to companies, except you because the Levendis foundation is financing you!

Every one is doing it is your argument ? Everyone except you (and GiG) presumably ? I ask AGAIN to WHAT END would Birdlife Cyprus 'blatantly distort and manipulate,falsify and exaggerate, evidence'. To what end would the Leventis foundation fund such an organisation ? I keep asking and you have yet to provide any credible response to this question. What YOUR end is in blatant distortion, manipulation the truth and discrediting anyone daring to point it our is obvious but what is theirs (or 'ours' if you insist) ?

I wonder whether they know what you are up to. I think I ought to write them a letter and I urge others to do the same.

Oh please please please DO contact them and ask if they know 'what we are up to'. I know you will not because you have no interest in the actual answer but I would love you to do that. I KNOW they know what 'we are up to' because I met a member of the family when I was working with Birdlife Cyprus with a view to trying to replicate their work on annual survey's of trapping into the North. He was and as far as I know still is directly involved in the organisation that his families foundation bankrolls. But we all know you have no interest in the actual truth of this and that this 'wondering if they know what we are up to' is asked only for 'effect' - and you have the gall to talk about 'our' propaganda !

To the propaganda. Millions of birds are caught by mafiosi, criminals and barbarians. Actually they are trappers. Pictures galore of trap birds, from a picture library created for the purpose, in order to arose the emotions of people and gain their support

Barabrians is YOUR word not 'ours'. Criminal is by definition, if you do something illegal by definition you are a criminal. That there are criminal organisations that control the illegal activities in their areas, be it drugs, gambling, prostitution or illegal bird trapping is just fact an inevitable result of the criminalisation of trapping with lime sticks and mist nets. So when Oxfam use pictures of dying children in campaigns to raise awareness of a drought or disaster somewhere, we should all come to the conclusion using your 'logic', that they are a 'single issue' organisation and therefore they must be lying, exaggerating and distorting and therefore there are no such dying children in reality. THIS is your argument ?

Lime sticks and mist nets are both indiscriminate methods. Who says so… you know who… (read my previous posts)

It is just plain common fucking sense that when you place a lime stick you have no control over what bird my get stuck to it.

The trappers are to be blame for the depletion of the avian species etc. Read my previous posts.

NO ONE is saying illegal trapping is the sole cause of declining numbers of endangered species but to claim it does no damage to them at all, as you do, and based on NO actual evidence other than your insistence that it does no damage, now that IS propaganda. Read my previous posts.

Well mate, are you asking me to help you solve the problem? It’s your problem not mine.

No species loss is EVERYONES problem. Live in denial if you want.

My answer is bells.

Placing bells on cats has only a minimal effect on the damage they do to birds, which is why no country anywhere in the world requires that domestic cats must wear bells.

Of course I was only pointing out to you that the Cypriot trapper is not at the top of the list of avian destruction (he only kills 3-12.5 million birds; according to the keepers of truth) if avian destruction is what you are fighting against. I somehow get this sneaking feeling that’s not your main objective. There is something else behind your championing of birds.

You (and GiG) KEEP making 'suggestions' that there is some 'hidden' objective behind those who champion the protection of Birds, be it me or Birdlife Cyprus and those who work in it or those like the Leventis family that fund such organisations (suggestions that they 'don't know what BC are doing, that its all a 'tax dodge', that they are too rich and stupid to know what their money is being used for). You are both pass masters at making such 'suggestions'. What you have totally failed to do is offer any plausible explanation as to what this 'hidden agenda' actually IS. Classic propaganda technique.

How many reports have been compiled by the bird champions about avian destruction in the occupied areas?

Why do you care ? You will not believe anything that is in such reports in any case ? I know specifically of two reports looking at illegal trapping in the North because I worded on the project that produced the surveys that produced the data that went into these reports.

And please provide some info where I can get hold of them.

You can do your own leg work.

I am very interested in reading them.

No you are not. You are interested in twisting and distorting and misrepresenting anything you can in them, which is why I have no desire to help you find them, though they are in no way hidden and are in fact publically available.

[Get Real!]

Cyprus has such little wildlife; not only in species but in numbers, that I hope hunting/trapping of all sorts will one day become a thing of the past… ASAP!

The other thing that worries me is the surge in the use of those sticky yellow fly/insect traps. I’ve seen gardens with one of those hanging off every single damn tree… and not necessarily fruit trees!

Each of these sheets have hundreds of insects stuck on them and when you multiply that by the thousands of sheets placed island wide you get a significant number of insects killed for no reason at all that would’ve fed thousands of birds!

What the hell are we doing? It's like everything we do is aimed at eliminating birds!

Btw, if hunters must shoot birds then please shoot those pesky pigeons from our rooftops because they’re a bloody nuisance!

[erolz66]

The bi annual surveys that Birdlife Cyprus carry out are not 'advertising' and that you can describer them as such just shows the depth of your ignorance. So now the Leventis family and the funds they have set up are to be subject to your attacks are they ?

No, it shows the depths of your pointlessness as you set up your own fallacies to knock down.

So when you said

I worked for two different charities for over two years and support two others. I know a little of how they work and they are NOT scientific in their advertising!

You were NOT suggesting that the bi annual surveys Birdlife Cyprus conduct to monitor illegal trapping activity and have been doping so for over 10 years, were not scientific ?

When you said

no matter who has been roped in to support them, perhaps in order to reduce their personal tax liability. There are enough idiots even here with money to throw around and pretend they are 'humanitarian'.

You were NOT 'suggesting' that the Leventis family that funds Birdlife Cyprus 'perhaps' did so only as a 'tax doge' and were idiots with money playing at being 'humanitarian' ?

Pah !

[miltiades]

Erolz, I admire your patience in dealing with GIG's repetitive jargon. She means well but she is totally absorbed with bitterness against Turkey, I too condemn Turkeys invasion and continued occupation of a part of mine and yours northern parts of Cyprus.

Unlike her I do not have a grudge against T/Cs whom I consider as my compatriots and victims of extremists actions that led to the current situation.

Birdlife in Cyprus does need protection as a vast number of Cypriots do not appreciate that endangered species need protection.

This cultural "cruelty" against amnelopoulia has been going on for a very long time, to condemn this practice does not in any way mean that one is condemning Cyprus, you may perhaps have seen some of my posts containing my love of Cyprus, our Cyprus, yours and mime, this love I have for my birth country its natural in most people, to condemn certain behaviour does not diminish such love but its because of this love that you and I condemn practices that are un acceptable this day and age.

As a child growing up in Cyprus I was, just as other children were, cruel to animals and birds in particular, we would kill any thing that flew, we killed for their meat, a scarcity in my childhood era.

Also, we knew no better, did not appreciate the beauty of birds and the pleasure that birds gave us in their natural environment.