Cyprus-Forum.com

[boulio]

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots"Report S/6426

[erolz66]

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots"Report S/6426

You are really claiming this is says that 10's of thousands of TC fled their homes in 64 because of fear of TMT ? Self- segregation is refusing to engage with GC and particularly the GC run government, not going into GC areas (something that if my uncle had 'obeyed', would have saved his life), keeping to their own areas as far as possible. Your claim was and is that TC fled their homes in 64 because of fear of violence from TMT (and not because of actual violence or fear of violence from GC) and I am afraid that the above quote does not support that at all. I am sorry but to me to take the above and present it as evidence that TC fled their homes because of fear of TMT violence against them is just classic propaganda.

Here is a quote for you from an earlier UN report s/6228 (my emphasis)

54. In present political conditions, moral suasion and the Turkish Cypriot's genuine fears for their safety are usually quite sufficient to enable the Turkish Cypriot leaders to assert their political authority and territorial and military control and to maintain the fighting spirit of the people at high pitch. The thousands who have to live as refugees in varying degrees of misery believe that a solution which will put an end to their plight will soon be forthcoming. Those who demur are few in number.

Do you think they forgot to mention that these 'genuine fears of TC' were from violence from other TC and not GC when they wrote this ?

[boulio]

Policy of self segregation ,deliberately ,geographic separation,political goal,rigid stand .His words not mine.the funny thing is the tc leadership and turkey even today can be described with the same words.

[DT.]

how is the gc national guard outnumbered. when it comes to pre-74 I am afraid most of the people here have no idea what it was like. what makarios our president said when he was told that thet tcs were suffering in the enclaves speaks volumes.

what was it he said. let them boil in their juices. in reality thats exactly what most people think now about tcs. so really there is no change.

as to peace, gcs will never understand what it is to be in surrounded 24/7 365. so when they say there is no peace now it is almost laughable, if only it was not so serious. you first live like tcs did in pre-74 and then can talk about the meaning of peace. in chaurlis case of course they only understand piss.

Lordo if your talking about the enclaves surrounded 24/7 365 days there is the famous detailed in great length UN report I believe issued in 1965 concerning the self imposed exile.

How comic, if you feel thretened you automatical try to disassociate with the individuals who want to kill you or do you just continue to mingle as nothing is happening. You people really need to get to grips with what really happened, talk to any TC who livied through those times and they will tell you about the fear the suffered at the hands of the GCs and how even your best friend turned on you, you were not safe on your own thats why Tcs started to come together and "impose sel exile" they were trying to save their lives and keep away from their murderers. You should talk to my father in law hes now 80 years old and remembers very well what when on, he lived through the Kaymaklı incidents and Sampson who placed a Turkish flag around his neck rounded up TCs in a truck then took them away to be killed....so dont give me bull shit about self exile, if you are afraid for your life you would fly to the moon if it meant getting away from enosis starved terorists and their supports be it active or silent.

Did he kill those tc's he rounded up?

[erolz66]

Policy of self segregation ,deliberately ,geographic separation,political goal,rigid stand .His words not mine.the funny thing is the tc leadership and turkey even today can be described with the same words.

Those are his words but again if you are claiming that this is proof that TC fled their homes because of fear of TMT then you are I am afraid in my opinion just engaging in classic propaganda. These are also his words from the same UN report

It is, of course, difficult for UNFICYP to determine to what extent the Turkish self-segregation policy [see S/6228,paras. 53 to 571 is the result of ” strong-arm ” tactics by the leadership (as contended by the Government), or of the genuine fears of Turkish Cypriots for their safety.

As VP has already pointed out the whole idea that TC for fear of TMT violence against them flee their homes and go to enclaves controlled and protected by TMT ?

[erolz66]

Did he kill those tc's he rounded up?

Did Sampson kill every TC he rounded up. No but he killed enough to create just the kind of fear necessary to make people flee their homes in the 10's of thousands and did so with impunity and boastfully and without fear of prosecution for his illegal acts then or in the future. He was not know as the 'hammer of the turks' without reason.

[Viewpoint]

how is the gc national guard outnumbered. when it comes to pre-74 I am afraid most of the people here have no idea what it was like. what makarios our president said when he was told that thet tcs were suffering in the enclaves speaks volumes.

what was it he said. let them boil in their juices. in reality thats exactly what most people think now about tcs. so really there is no change.

as to peace, gcs will never understand what it is to be in surrounded 24/7 365. so when they say there is no peace now it is almost laughable, if only it was not so serious. you first live like tcs did in pre-74 and then can talk about the meaning of peace. in chaurlis case of course they only understand piss.

Lordo if your talking about the enclaves surrounded 24/7 365 days there is the famous detailed in great length UN report I believe issued in 1965 concerning the self imposed exile.

How comic, if you feel thretened you automatical try to disassociate with the individuals who want to kill you or do you just continue to mingle as nothing is happening. You people really need to get to grips with what really happened, talk to any TC who livied through those times and they will tell you about the fear the suffered at the hands of the GCs and how even your best friend turned on you, you were not safe on your own thats why Tcs started to come together and "impose sel exile" they were trying to save their lives and keep away from their murderers. You should talk to my father in law hes now 80 years old and remembers very well what when on, he lived through the Kaymaklı incidents and Sampson who placed a Turkish flag around his neck rounded up TCs in a truck then took them away to be killed....so dont give me bull shit about self exile, if you are afraid for your life you would fly to the moon if it meant getting away from enosis starved terorists and their supports be it active or silent.

Did he kill those tc's he rounded up?

Unforuntunately he did, I can introduce you to one of the widows who was left behind with 6 children to raise. You people still do not realise that fear of death makes people run and seek protection not some movement or instruction. The tmt did not have to do any scare mongering the GCs played right into their hands by killing innocent TCs, if they had of adopted a more we will protect everyone you have every right to be here and live in your homes then none of this would have developed into what we have today.

Erol I do not know where you have been educated but I applaud the way you so clearly and precisely explain exactly what I and the majority of TCs are thinking, well done..I personally lose my patience and tend to go for a more tit for tat approach in the face of the GC posters on this forum, if there were more posters like you from both sides this forum would be more beneficial to everyone.

[erolz66]

The tmt did not have to do any scare mongering the GCs played right into their hands by killing innocent TCs, if they had of adopted a more we will protect everyone you have every right to be here and live in your homes then none of this would have developed into what we have today.

Indeed VP and your views above are stated in the very UN reports that are being quoted here by the way. From S/6228 (again my emphasis)

;55*The question of the position of the Turkish Cypriot population is complex. The Government contends that ,the Turkish Cypriot leadership resorts to strong-arm tactics to enforce its domination and has made available to UNFICYP evidence about methods used to implement the self-segregation policy of the Turkish Cypriot community. The Turkish Cypriot leaders claim that their community must adopt defensive measures in the face of possible acts of Greek Cypriot violence; since they regard the Government as illegal, they also seek to avoid placing, Turkish Cypriots in situations where they have to acknowledge the authority of government agents. The fact is that this self-isolation policy is least successfull wherever the Government has most consistently sought to foster a return to normal conditions and to prevent victimization of Turkish Cypriots; in such areas the links with the Turkish Cypriot leadership in Nicosia may sometimes become tenuous, and the population may in part accept government administrative authority (See chapterIV)

Erol I do not know where you have been educated but I applaud the way you so clearly and precisely explain exactly what I and the majority of TCs are thinking, well done..I personally lose my patience and tend to go for a more tit for tat approach in the face of the GC posters on this forum,

Thanks for the kind words. However I am no different really except I take long 'vacations' but I too end up in 'tit for tat' spats that are not my intention. Personally I am in awe of your 'stamina'

if there were more posters like you from both sides this forum would be more beneficial to everyone.

Here I disagree I am afraid. We (including you I believe) have been down this route. We (myself and other posters on this forum) tried to do that here many years ago and essentially failed. We then set up an alternative forum, that was truly 'bi-communal' unlike this one and tried to do it there. I will not say these efforts were of no value but I do think the value that could be had from them was limited, time wise and otherwise. I just do not think any more, given my experience over the previous 10 years, that fora such as this one can ever actually be a positive force for reconciliation and greater mutual understanding. What is more I think they potentially are damaging to such hopes. I do still 'pop in' from time to time but I doubt I will ever be willing to commit the kind of time and effort in the future to such for a as I have done in the past.

[boulio]

Policy of self segregation ,deliberately ,geographic separation,political goal,rigid stand .His words not mine.the funny thing is the tc leadership and turkey even today can be described with the same words.

Those are his words but again if you are claiming that this is proof that TC fled their homes because of fear of TMT then you are I am afraid in my opinion just engaging in classic propaganda. These are also his words from the same UN report

It is, of course, difficult for UNFICYP to determine to what extent the Turkish self-segregation policy [see S/6228,paras. 53 to 571 is the result of ” strong-arm ” tactics by the leadership (as contended by the Government), or of the genuine fears of Turkish Cypriots for their safety.

As VP has already pointed out the whole idea that TC for fear of TMT violence against them flee their homes and go to enclaves controlled and protected by TMT ?

like i said the tc self isolation was a mixture of both tmt pressure and a real or imaginery threat from the gc side.

[erolz66]

like i said the tc self isolation was a mixture of both tmt pressure and a real or imaginery threat from the gc side.

Choosing to isolate ones self is not the same as fleeing your home. Your claim was that the main reason TC fled their homes in 64 was because of fear of TMT violence against them. This is just not true.

The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. Most refugees expected to return to their homes within a few months at the most, and it was this assumption of an early return that facilitated their departure in the first place. In some instances, the evacuation of certain villages was encouraged by the expectation of an imminent invasion by Turkey. There was an understandable desire to withdraw from Greek-Cypriot areas which might become bombing targets of the Turkish air force. It was only in a few instances, after January 1964, that the Turkish-Cypriot Leadership took the initiative in recommending that certain villages should be evacuated. However, it is known that such advice was not always followed. Normally the Leadership was approached by village elders only after the villagers had already decided to evacuate, and they sought the Leadership's assistance In the pro- vision of transport and refugee housing. Any official administrative organization to direct refugee movements, or to oversee their welfare, was not established until the bulk of the refugees had already moved on their own initiative.

The above is the truth. TC know it. Independent researchers like Mr Patrick quoted above who have meticulously researched the events in detail know it. The overwhelming majority of the international press corps reporting from Cyprus in that period knew it (just read the contemporary reports of the time). GC brave enough and honest enough to face up to such truths like Loucas Charalambous (and other besides him) know it. Pretty much everyone knows it is the truth apart from those GC that cling to their sides official propaganda like a nervous child clings to a security blanket.