Cyprus-Forum.com

[repulsewarrior]

Freedom to be Cypriot (one man one vote), and the Liberty of being a Person of our own choosing (a vote by residency)...

your comments?

If how Cypriots vote is a matter or personal choice regardless of their ethnic background then sure. However if how you vote is defined solely by your 'Greekness' or 'Turkishness', where you vote not as a Cypriot but as a Greek or Turk, who happens to live in Cyprus, then no we can not agree that such represents 'liberty or freedom'. All that represents to me is a right for GC acting purely as Greeks to impose anything they want on TC, with no regard for TC communal will, up to and including forcing the destruction of a Cypriot nation and state on TC and the annexing of their own shared homeland to a foreign power against their wishes. That to me is not 'freedom or liberty' but in fact tyranny. Can we agree on that ? Your comments ?

5. the Turkish constituent state, and the Greek constituent state shall be equal, in that they each represent themselves as Persons in a National Assembly where their electorate is identified by their residence, and in that they obtian their Charter meeting the same criteria determined by the federal government which retains its Sovereignty while assigning territorial Jurisdiction.

6. Bizonal shall define a geographic representation of our commitment to redressing the suffering of all displaced, with their return, for some as communities. thus the island as it is divided has to its political geography many pockets added everywhere, resulting in the obligation of the National Assemblies to provide their service to an electorate that is island-wide.

7. settlers who apply for Citizenship, who are accepted, and who will be newly displaced (from the repopulation) shall be provided homes, or at their choosing compensation.http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus31695.html

In my Cyprus the line which divides it in two would remain.

In my Cyprus some of the displaced shall return as communities, and all displaced shall have the Right of Return.

In my Cyprus in voting, in any election, people are defined by their residence, not by their ethnicity.

In my Cyprus a strong Central Government, with its Executive, and an Independent Judiciary will be Sovereign in defending our identities as individuals, our Individual Rights, and the Heritance which makes the island’s culture wealthy, beyond the interests of any single community of persons.

In my Cyprus there are two National Assemblies, where citizens represent themselves as persons, to have Jurisdiction over Territories defined, each as a Zone, providing to these electors the services they need in their daily lives in a manner where, they can as a majority sustain themselves first, while recognising their grace and providing for the special needs of minoroities amongst them.

In my Cyprus, enclaves, like jewels will be scattered across its map. Famagusta will be opened, Girne will remain, Komi Kebir will thrive, and a new township will be founded by Turkish Cypriots near Paphos.http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus16772.html

...i would think erolz, that you know me better than that. you have read my thingies, my manifesto, haven't you? seriously, is all that counts, that "we" remain unforgiven so long as there is a "you" who makes this claim? why do you ask me to answer such loaded questions, beyond my fantasy, another fantasy, your fantasy (read: nightmare). beyond that, what is there for Humanity, beyond what seems to be a very important differentiation, "Greek"/"not Greek", or better said, "Turk"/"not Turk". if you are Cypriot, if you love Cyprus, if you believe Cypriots are more deserving in its stewardship, Sovereign in its care, what is wrong with placing our faith in each other because we choose to place one flag above our "own"? not really a question to you, because i imagine you would agree, but a statement to all of us.

i am not your opponent, flawed or not we are stuck with each other, and i am grateful to have made boulio's acquaintance also.

enclaves? what's good about them, i ask, since there is so much bad about them too.

[repulsewarrior]

Cap wrote:
This manifesto keeps cropping up.
Spell it out repulse.

i.e. Medical Service. a Federal Government mandates a Standard which must be met, and collects the Tax toward this entitlement of Citizens. the Cypriot Constituencies execute through their own self-representation how this Policy is effected in a manner where while their Agenda (as a Distinct Identity) is the first consideration, it recognises and respects the needs of the Minorities amongst them, toward which is provided the same Goodwill (i.e. service in other languages).

i.e. Justice, a State has an independent Judiciary, and it should be able to consider any question of Law, and Justice. Criminal Law remains the domain of the Federal Government, there may be Criminal Courts that are administered by Constituencies, and they make decisions based on Law enacted by Constituencies, (Jury Trials, manslaughter, drunk driving, e.g.) but none of this can draw the conclusion that the Rule of Law in Cyprus as anything but one System, with one Supreme Court.

i.e. Environment/Safety, (and @ Oceanside), obviously the Republic of Cyprus is committed to common goals with other members of the EU, however it has a Jurisdiction, and it has the ability to effect change, similarly the Constituencies are more on the ground (if you will), and they too have the good conscience to seek to better themselves as Peoples.


...the point is choice, Cap, taxpayers closer to their taxdollars.

cyprus40925.html

What level of power would the zones have...???

Internal politics, policing, infra structure ( e.g. roads, medical, education, municipalites (permits, by-law), Civil Law), within a National Assembly where the electors are equal, and who have the right to vote by where they reside.

How many zones...???

many, perhaps 17 that make up the Greek Constituency, 7 that make up the Turkish Constituency, and at least a number for each, the Maronite, Armenian, and Latin Communities, who will depend on the largest of these Constituencies to recognise their needs are equal in sustaining the living relics they have as a Heritance, as well, on this island. as such, enclaves might pocket the whole island, but they are not ghettos, and the Green Line may be little modified, but it is not a "Border", just another frontier.

How strong would the central gov be...???

very strong. as strong as possible, prepared for the 21st Century, and the Information Age; in representing (and serving) Cypriots, and in defending our Individual Rights, our demonstration as a State, without distinctions or the discrimination of Nations, of Universal Principals, and their betterment.

30 something zones, divided into 2-7 constituencies; and a central government to represent these electors not just as electors, but Citizens.

...not just "one" border, in Cyprus, many frontiers.

[boulio]

like i said the tc self isolation was a mixture of both tmt pressure and a real or imaginery threat from the gc side.

Choosing to isolate ones self is not the same as fleeing your home. Your claim was that the main reason TC fled their homes in 64 was because of fear of TMT violence against them. This is just not true.

The author's investigations reveal that the overwhelming majority of Turk-Cypriot refugees moved only after Turk-Cypriots had been killed, abducted or harrassed by Greek-Cypriots within their village, quarter, or in the local vicinity. Most refugees expected to return to their homes within a few months at the most, and it was this assumption of an early return that facilitated their departure in the first place. In some instances, the evacuation of certain villages was encouraged by the expectation of an imminent invasion by Turkey. There was an understandable desire to withdraw from Greek-Cypriot areas which might become bombing targets of the Turkish air force. It was only in a few instances, after January 1964, that the Turkish-Cypriot Leadership took the initiative in recommending that certain villages should be evacuated. However, it is known that such advice was not always followed. Normally the Leadership was approached by village elders only after the villagers had already decided to evacuate, and they sought the Leadership's assistance In the pro- vision of transport and refugee housing. Any official administrative organization to direct refugee movements, or to oversee their welfare, was not established until the bulk of the refugees had already moved on their own initiative.

The above is the truth. TC know it. Independent researchers like Mr Patrick quoted above who have meticulously researched the events in detail know it. The overwhelming majority of the international press corps reporting from Cyprus in that period knew it (just read the contemporary reports of the time). GC brave enough and honest enough to face up to such truths like Loucas Charalambous (and other besides him) know it. Pretty much everyone knows it is the truth apart from those GC that cling to their sides official propaganda like a nervous child clings to a security blanket.

if you go back a few pages you will see that what i stated then i stated now concerning it may have been a mixture of both.But lets assume that the above that you posted is the absolute truth erolz,i have a question why in the last 50 years that the tc have been persucuted and murder and forces into enclaves by the majority gc has no one besides tukey have not recognized THE TC.Why is the GC run ROC Recognized as the SOLE govt on the isalnd?its been 50 years

[erolz66]

if you go back a few pages you will see that what i stated then i stated now concerning it may have been a mixture of both.But lets assume that the above that you posted is the absolute truth erolz,i have a question why in the last 50 years that the tc have been persucuted and murder and forces into enclaves by the majority gc has no one besides tukey have not recognized THE TC.Why is the GC run ROC Recognized as the SOLE govt on the isalnd?its been 50 years

The 'international community' (world powers) work in their own interests. The legitimacy that the RoC government enjoys today derived from what was politically expedient to the those world powers in 1964 and was cemented by the events of 74.

In 1964 the western world powers, in their own self interest, wanted above all to avoid Cyprus causing a conflict between NATO allies in what was the height of the cold war. This was their principal objective. There chosen means of doing this was to place 'third party' troops in Cyprus. When the proposal to place neutral NATO troops was blocked they then looked to place UN troops. In order to place such UN troops they had to be 'invited' by some Cypriot entity. It was therefore political expedient to treat a GC only run RoC government as 'legitimate' in order to achieve their own aims, which is effectively what they did, even though such a Government was clearly not only constitutionally invalid but was also directly involved in the use of illegal ethnic force against its own population. The GC effectively stole the TC communities rights as per the constitution ands the 60's agreements and the wold community at the time effectively legitimatise the GC only run government purely because for them it was politically expedient to do so and for no other reason (in my opinion). They wanted to get UN troops in Cyprus and to do so the easiest way was to recognise that a GC only administration could 'invite' such troops, so they chose to 'recognise it' - though not explicitly but in effect. After 74 everything of course changed. The use of military force by Turkey and the enforced movement of vast numbers of Cypriots by force of arms cemented this 'legitimacy' that had initially (from 64 to 74) been a result of the political expediency of world powers pursuing their own self interest.

[Maximus]

if you go back a few pages you will see that what i stated then i stated now concerning it may have been a mixture of both.But lets assume that the above that you posted is the absolute truth erolz,i have a question why in the last 50 years that the tc have been persucuted and murder and forces into enclaves by the majority gc has no one besides tukey have not recognized THE TC.Why is the GC run ROC Recognized as the SOLE govt on the isalnd?its been 50 years

The 'international community' (world powers) work in their own interests. The legitimacy that the RoC government enjoys today derived from what was politically expedient to the those world powers in 1964 and was cemented by the events of 74.

In 1964 the western world powers, in their own self interest, wanted above all to avoid Cyprus causing a conflict between NATO allies in what was the height of the cold war. This was their principal objective. There chosen means of doing this was to place 'third party' troops in Cyprus. When the proposal to place neutral NATO troops was blocked they then looked to place UN troops. In order to place such UN troops they had to be 'invited' by some Cypriot entity. It was therefore political expedient to treat a GC only run RoC government as 'legitimate' in order to achieve their own aims, which is effectively what they did, even though such a Government was clearly not only constitutionally invalid but was also directly involved in the use of illegal ethnic force against its own population. The GC effectively stole the TC communities rights as per the constitution ands the 60's agreements and the wold community at the time effectively legitimatise the GC only run government purely because for them it was politically expedient to do so and for no other reason (in my opinion). They wanted to get UN troops in Cyprus and to do so the easiest way was to recognise that a GC only administration could 'invite' such troops, so they chose to 'recognise it' - though not explicitly but in effect. After 74 everything of course changed. The use of military force by Turkey and the enforced movement of vast numbers of Cypriots by force of arms cemented this 'legitimacy' that had initially (from 64 to 74) been a result of the political expediency of world powers pursuing their own self interest.

a) The constitution itself was invalid because it did not adhere to the UN charter. All the GC's wanted to do was modify it so that it was compatible with it.

b) The world sees through the TC's lies, apartheidist demands and illegitimate expectations.

c) A piece of paper constructed by colonialists with a heavy bias towards the old oppressor and signed during wartime by Makarios does not change the fact that the GC's and Cyprus are sovereign.

d) Turkey invaded, committed war crimes, rearranged the demographics, has since stayed put and the TC support this.

The TC's are not legitimate, that's why no one recognizes them.

[erolz66]

a) The constitution itself was invalid because it did not adhere to the UN charter.

If the UN thought that the 60's agreements were not compatible with the UN charter it is kind of strange that the UN has never said this do you not think ? Not in any of its resolutions passed about Cyprus has it ever said that the 60's agreements were incompatible with the UN charter.

All the GC's wanted to do was modify it so that it was compatible with it.

Bullshit - of the most blatant kind. The GC leadership sought to unilaterally amend the previously signed agreements using ethnic based force against their own population where necessary in order to achieve enosis. They had a specific plan to that end. The whole world knew that this was the true objective of GC seeking to unilaterally change the constitution and abrogate the 60's agreements to gain 'unfettered independence' . From the UN Galo Plaza report of 65

84. My predecessor observed--and from my own knowledge I can confirm--that there could be no concealing the fact that the formal "prohibition" of the Enosis idea did not suppress it in Cyprus. It continued to be discussed and advocated (as well as opposed), in and out of the institutions of government, long after the date of independence. It was and remains impossible to escape the impression that for a large body of the Greek-Cypriot leaders' following, and for many of the leaders themselves, the official demand for "full independence and self-determination" had no other meaning than this: that Cyprus should be released from the treaty and constitution obligations which limited her freedom of choice, whereupon she would opt by some acceptable democratic procedure for union with Greece, this union to take place by agreement exclusively between Cyprus and Greece.

b) The world sees through the TC's lies, apartheidist demands and illegitimate expectations.

Yeah right which is why the 'world' has never accepted that GC have the right to impose ENOSIS on TC against their will. Not in 1960, 64 or since and not today either.

c) A piece of paper constructed by colonialists with a heavy bias towards the old oppressor and signed during wartime by Makarios

The chief architects of the 60's agreements were in fact Turkey (in the person of Mr Zorlu) and Greece (in the person of Mr Averoff). The British beyond securing their interests via the SBA areas has little input. Here is another little quote for you from your now infamous 'plan'.

It has been an important trump in our hands that the solution brought by the Agreements was not submitted to the approval of the people; acting wisely in this respect, our leadership avoided holding a referendum. Otherwise, the people would have definitely approved the Agreements in the atmosphere that prevailed in 1959.

As the authors of this plan clearly knew, not only had Greece been a party to drafting and accepted the 60s agreements and the rest of the world accepted it they also if the GC people had been asked at that time THEY TOO would have accepted it.

does not change the fact that the GC's and Cyprus are sovereign.

And the same old same old mind-set from you Maximus. GC are sovereign but TC are not. Cyprus could have been sovereign but what the GC tried to do was claim in the NAME of a unitary Cypriot people and via a Sovereign Cypriot nation, that Cyprus does not exist, either as a unitary people or a sovereign nation. It was a ridiculous notion then and fooled no one and remains so today. It is exactly the kind of mind-set that meant you could get no international support for ENOSIS then.

d) Turkey invaded, committed war crimes, rearranged the demographics, has since stayed put and the TC support this.

And the rest of the 'world' has done nothing about this to date. Why do you think that is ?

The TC's are not legitimate, that's why no one recognizes them.

And once again with your own words you show what an extremist you are and the degree to which you simply ignore truth and reality if your 'mind-set' requires it. The TRNC is not recognised internationally as legitimate. The TC community is entirely another matter and the legitimacy of that community to have a valid and effective say in the decisions about their own shared homeland has ALWAYS been recognised and still is today by everyone except extremist like yourself.

Maximalist you really should have lived 50 years ago - you would have been so much happier then.

[Lordo]

to gcs like maximobullagi tcs do not belong in cyprus.

well my little boy
off to greece you go

[boulio]

if you go back a few pages you will see that what i stated then i stated now concerning it may have been a mixture of both.But lets assume that the above that you posted is the absolute truth erolz,i have a question why in the last 50 years that the tc have been persucuted and murder and forces into enclaves by the majority gc has no one besides tukey have not recognized THE TC.Why is the GC run ROC Recognized as the SOLE govt on the isalnd?its been 50 years

The 'international community' (world powers) work in their own interests. The legitimacy that the RoC government enjoys today derived from what was politically expedient to the those world powers in 1964 and was cemented by the events of 74.

In 1964 the western world powers, in their own self interest, wanted above all to avoid Cyprus causing a conflict between NATO allies in what was the height of the cold war. This was their principal objective. There chosen means of doing this was to place 'third party' troops in Cyprus. When the proposal to place neutral NATO troops was blocked they then looked to place UN troops. In order to place such UN troops they had to be 'invited' by some Cypriot entity. It was therefore political expedient to treat a GC only run RoC government as 'legitimate' in order to achieve their own aims, which is effectively what they did, even though such a Government was clearly not only constitutionally invalid but was also directly involved in the use of illegal ethnic force against its own population. The GC effectively stole the TC communities rights as per the constitution ands the 60's agreements and the wold community at the time effectively legitimatise the GC only run government purely because for them it was politically expedient to do so and for no other reason (in my opinion). They wanted to get UN troops in Cyprus and to do so the easiest way was to recognise that a GC only administration could 'invite' such troops, so they chose to 'recognise it' - though not explicitly but in effect. After 74 everything of course changed. The use of military force by Turkey and the enforced movement of vast numbers of Cypriots by force of arms cemented this 'legitimacy' that had initially (from 64 to 74) been a result of the political expediency of world powers pursuing their own self interest.

So they left a tc community isolated that was at zero fault and rewarded the gc who pillaged and stole the tc rights for political Expediency to allow UN troops?yeah that makes sense.

[erolz66]

So they left a tc community isolated that was at zero fault and rewarded the gc who pillaged and stole the tc rights for political Expediency to allow UN troops?yeah that makes sense.

You find it so hard to believe that the western world power did not care about Cypriots or who was right or wrong but only about their own interests, which was to avoid Turkey and Greece going to war over Cyprus, and they took the most expedient route to achieve their objectives ?

[Maximus]

Erolz

Would you like some egg and beans with your waffles?

unrecognized
adjective: unrecognized; unrecognised
1. not identified from previous encounters or knowledge.
2. not acknowledged as valuable or valid.

illegitimate
adjective: illegitimate
1. Not conforming to the law or to rules.
antonyms: illegal, illegitimate, false, fraudulent
2. Not able to be defended with logic or justification; valid.
antonyms: invalid, unjustifiable
3. constituting or relating to serious drama but distinct from musical comedy and soap operas etc.