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words of the wise?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:18 pm

So according to erolz, while both GC and TC made wrongs (which we agree) the only ones who have to be punished now and the next several centuries are the GCs. So because some people on this island happened to be Muslims and talk Turkish they should get 4.5 more voting power from the rest of the citizens of this country.

And then these same people come and talk about "unity", when whatever they say ends up on how separate the two communities should be.
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Postby insan » Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:38 pm

Political equality between two unequal sized communities cannot work.



It perfectly works.


If it was 50:50 fine. But it is not. Political equality between 80:20 means that the 20 will dominate the 80.



How will %20 dominate %80 while they have equal power? It's illogical!



The only way around this impasse is to guarantee individual rights. And the only way that we can guarantee those rights is to consider ourselves as Cypriots first and foremost



You may surpass the nationalist feelings but you can't reverse it. We have always witnessed the "Cypriots" waving motherland flags and will never change their nationalist political stance. They are not even a small minority in both communities. They constitute at least %20 of the population within their communities. Just read Simerini, Machi, Volkan and Vatan... and even Halkin Sesi and Filelefteros.

If we don't then we will be doomed to partition.



Yeah... if the majority of GCs don't accept TC community as an politicaly equal constituent partner in united Cyprus state, we will be doomed to partition. Why don't you try to understand that the political equality on legislative and judicial bodies is the political safe guard of two communities?


The powers of legislative and judicial bodies will be defined in United Cyprus constitution. Obviously they won't be able to act against the constitution which protects every individual and communal rights of two communities.


I still can't understand how %20 will dominate %80 if they both have been granted equal political power on legislative and judicial bodies...
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Postby metecyp » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:17 am

I still can't understand how %20 will dominate %80 if they both have been granted equal political power on legislative and judicial bodies...

They're talking about 1 TC vote being equal to 4 GC vote. I think this political equality issue can be solved in a way to satisfy both sides. I understand that it's hard for GCs to accept that 20% can be equal to 80% but GCs should understand that we cannot have simple one person one vote either. We know that differences exist between TCs and GCs, we are not truly one united Cypriot nation and both sides have fears. So something in between has to be found to satisfy the fears of TCs but at the same time not upset GCs. Maybe TCs can have, say 30%, of the seats in the parliament and also veto power in important matters.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:53 am

metecyp wrote:
Maybe TCs can have, say 30%, of the seats in the parliament and also veto power in important matters.


This is pretty much what the TC's had under the 1960 constitution!

In my mind, perhaps the TC's should reclaim their place under the RoC constitution! The TC's say that we pushed them out, the GC's say that the TC's left on their own accord. Perhaps the TC's should call the bluf of the GC's and reclaim thier place in the RoC.
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Postby brother » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:57 pm

Now that is a good idea and probably the best way to show we can be a cypriot nation
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Postby metecyp » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:14 pm

In my mind, perhaps the TC's should reclaim their place under the RoC constitution!

Sometimes I get the feeling that we only have 2 choices for a solution: partition or Republic of Cyprus. I don't think that many TCs will accept to go back to RC because that would mean everyone goes back to their house in 1960. TCs will lose their sense of security that they have by living in an area where they're the majority.

What might be a more plausible solution is converting Republic of Cyprus into a federal structure. In other words, TCs will have their area in the north and they will have as much power in the government as they had in Republic of Cyprus. I don't know what people think about this.
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Postby erolz » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:01 pm

metecyp wrote:
In my mind, perhaps the TC's should reclaim their place under the RoC constitution!

Sometimes I get the feeling that we only have 2 choices for a solution: partition or Republic of Cyprus. I don't think that many TCs will accept to go back to RC because that would mean everyone goes back to their house in 1960. TCs will lose their sense of security that they have by living in an area where they're the majority.

What might be a more plausible solution is converting Republic of Cyprus into a federal structure. In other words, TCs will have their area in the north and they will have as much power in the government as they had in Republic of Cyprus. I don't know what people think about this.


In many ways I would be happy with the original 1960 consitituion, ammended to the realites now as suggested above. As far as I am concerned it represented a recognition of 'equality of communities'. The problem with a return to it is in why it failed to produce a united Island the first time round. Personaly I think it is fair to say that things are different now in terms of the peoples will to make it work. So it may be that the 60 consistiuion is 'a workable' solution despite its past failures - just because the people are now different (I hope?).
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Postby metecyp » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:59 pm

So it may be that the 60 consistiuion is 'a workable' solution despite its past failures - just because the people are now different (I hope?).

I also believe that 1960 constitution has much better chance for survival now than 1960. I know that there are many GCs who do not yet acknowledge TC rights in Republic of Cyprus. There are many people that are used to regarding RC as GC state representing the whole island but I think a federalized RC is much easier for GCs to accept than something like the Annan plan. Of course, the key here is how the federalization will be carried out. There are many tough issues such as properties issue which I don't know how it'll be solved.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:38 am

The point here is that the TC's have a legal means of entering the real world rather than trying to persuade people to accept their illegal state. But with that comes a price. The price will be the return of property to their rightfull owners, the return of Turkish troops and the return of most of the settlers. From then on, people can decide what to do. To either sell their property or to move back to it. The TC's have to understand that the right to property is an absolute fundamental right of everyone (unless you are an anarchist!) and reaching a political solution should in no way dilute the human rights of the individual.

The other advantage this will bring is that the people of the island can negotiate their own reunification without the interests of outside powers dictating the solution. If we are left to our own devices we can come to a solution. In fact we were probably very close to a solution before 1974 when Clerides and Denktas were discussing of a way forward. Many things were agreed upon save for the issue of how the municipalities should be run. Then we had the idiots who decided to destroy everything in 1974.

The rejection of the Annan plan has shown that trying to impose a solution which one side finds completely unjust just will not work. I believe that we could easily come to a federal solution based on cantons and by redrawing municipal lines to reflect the majority populations in each area. This would have to be done after a transitional period where people can decide what to do with their land and properties - if they want to return, or if they want to exchange or if they want to sell. The key thing here is to give people the choice of what to do, not to impose a solution. After that everything will fall into place.
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Postby metecyp » Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:48 am

I believe that we could easily come to a federal solution based on cantons and by redrawing municipal lines to reflect the majority populations in each area.

See, I don't think we can easily come to a federal solution based on cantons. At least that's not what the starting point should be. The starting point should be 2 federal states, one in the north, one in the south, forming a federal RC. That's what was agreed in 1977 if I'm not mistaken.

I understand that the right to property is an absolute fundamental right of everyone but you have to also understand that some people won't be able to get their properties back if you want some kind of federation. If everyone goes back to their place in 1960, then there's no point in talking about federation.

You talked about TC paying prices in terms of accepting return of all refugess, removal of Turkish troops etc. This mentality is wrong. TCs did not create the Cyprus problem on their own. GCs made big mistakes as well so there's also a price involved there. For example a price would be acceptance of the reality that not all refugees will return back (this doesn't mean that we won't try hardest to make sure everyone gets their property or compensation in a fair way).
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