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words of the wise?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

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Postby PEACE » Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:49 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:I reverse the question to you Peace. DO YOU? Or you accept only the parts that suit you?Notice the 1979 agreement said that Famagusta should be delivered to the UN with the begining of the talks.

Some points to consider:In 1977 it was possible for all refugees to still return to their homes.There were no settlers.We were not in the EU.Point No 3 in 1977 is contradictory to point No 3 of 1979 and contradictory to the EU Aquis today.
Your side never respected any agreement you signed.e.g the third Vienna agreement, which not only you did not respect you even named it "population exchange agreement" to suit you propaganda purposes.


If it is the only way to bring peace to our island i can accept.I don't see any bad point about delivering Famagusta to the UN.

Of course 1977-1979 Summit Agreements shold be renewed to new situation now.Like settelers subject.All can't return back.Returning of all refugees to their homes is not possible.If all they return back how we can say "Bi-zonal"?
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Postby insan » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:34 am

If all they return back how we can say "Bi-zonal"?



Manamu re gumbaro PEACE,


What's the relation of bi-zonality and the settlers. More than 500.000 TCs have been living abroad and you know that they mainly fled from Cyprus because of the extreme GCs and Denktash opressions. Wouldn't it be good to send all settlers back to their countries and call at lest half of the TCs back to Cyprus?
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Postby PEACE » Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:54 pm

insan wrote:What's the relation of bi-zonality and the settlers.


No,i'm not talking about settelers but i'm talking about Greek Cypriot refugees.If they all come to North Cyprus how we can talk about " bi-zonality"?



insan wrote:More than 500.000 TCs have been living abroad and you know that they mainly fled from Cyprus because of the extreme GCs and Denktash opressions. Wouldn't it be good to send all settlers back to their countries and call at lest half of the TCs back to Cyprus?


Sending all settlers are not possible! Some came here since early 1970s ans see Cyprus as their mainland.Some had children here and have a life here.It's not appropriate to Human rights.Greek Cypriot refugees will be compensated so their rights will be protected.

Yes,many TCs are living abroad but i don't think that even 1.000 of them will return back.Cos their new life is there and also they are living in 1960s still and they are full of hatred to GCs.They are so nationalist and majority of them supports still Denktas and TRNC.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:44 pm

Insan wrote: Really I'm sorry about you biraber


What do you mean re biraber? The fact that we disagree is a reason to pitty one another? You say your arguments I say mine.We may have our own opinions, others hearing us can judge by themselves. I am not asking anyone to cheer me, or pitty you, or vice-versa...

And I repeat from the end of the "war" in August 1974 up until one+ year later that the third Vienna aggreement was signed with which 50,000 TC (42% of their total) went to the Northern part not even one TC was hurt. And nobody would have moved unless they were promised a heaven of stolen and better properties. Do you disagree with that too?

Furthermore please do read the third Vienna agreement and tell me if that can be named a population exchange agreement like many TCs insist to call it. On the other hand, did you hear any GC calling the 3rd Vienna aggreement an agreement for ethnic cleansing?? When we say ethnic cleansing we refer to what happened to the Northern part during the invasion and not the moving of the TCs to the northern part one year later.....

Then also tell me which parts of those agreements Turkey or your side respected and applied.30 years later we had to make a hell lot of fuss just to have one high school running, just because your "democratic authorities" would not permit our enclaved children to have a secondary school education, contrary to the 3rd Vienna agreement and contrary to all international laws and human rights. Have a look at the 2nd movie Erol uploaded to see the clear violation of the 3rd Vienna agreement, and of basic human rights regarding the enclaved GCs.Yianoula had to get separated from 4 of her 5 children!!!

peace wrote: Of course 1977-1979 Summit Agreements shold be renewed to new situation now

Theres a Greek Cypriot say : "Irtes pou esso sou tora"= "You came from your home now"= now you are talking on new terms of your own make. How can you ask anyone if he accepts those agreement, when you yourself say that many things in there are not applicable anymore? You cannnot isolate one part of those aggreements that suits you.An agreement is an agreement as a total and when applied at the time of signing, not let sleeping for 30 years and suddenly wake it up to take 2-3 parts that suit you... nd by the way where is that "bi-zonal" term in those agreements.All I see is a "bi-communal" term.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:45 pm

Insan wrote: And even the extremists could murder thousands of people in Cyprus it is none of any other countries business to intervene in order to stop the bloodshed because if especially one of them intervened;


You are messing up 2 things. We were discussing with Peace whether the Treaty of guarantee automatically gave anyone the right to intervene militarily or not.That is a totally different issue as to whether there were predictable reasons to intervene militarily or not. I stress the word predictable, and you will see why later. You yourself said could (possibly) murder

To the vast majority of the TCs and you personally there were predictable reasons. I can understand your position. Advocating the devil though I tell you those reasons never materialised. No TC was hurt during the coup (all murders at villages e.g Tohni happened after and during the Invasion in retaliation of the murders at Kyrenia by the Turks). You insist it was obvious that this would occur anyway.I say how do you know? *
I also tell you that the situation was much worse in 1963 and in 1967 against the TCs with real and occuring evidence against their lives, however no invasion took place.And i also tell you the constitutional Order was destroyed years before, by both sides, so what constitutional Order are we talking about on the first place?

Furthermore I say is that the purpose of the coup was to take Makarios out of the way.Makarios for the local coupists was a burden to Enosis.But for the mainland Greek Junta he was an obstacle to a settlement in Cyprus.Settlement for them did not mean Enosis! . It meant expansion of the Terittory of Greece via double Enosis or partition. See the offer George Papadopoulos the Junta leader made to Turkey in 1967.

What the Political status after the coup would be nobody knows. Even a unilateral Enosis declaration would be internationally illegal and invalid unless there was an agreement (with Turkey and UK) validating it. It would furthermore be meaningless.Enosis means annexation, so the whole governing system of Greece should come here.It could not happen from one day to another,and it was simply impossible to happen without an internationally valid agreement. (See what happened to the occupied areas). In my opinion the only way out after the coup would either be an agreement for partition, or final restoration of the 1960 constitution. The former been the most propable.

PS * In politics the most predictable catastrophies usually don't occur. Just because they are so predictable that everyone knows how to avoid them. Usually what occurs are unpredictable catastrophies. For example was it predictable to you that Ertogan would freeze the Penal code of Turkey and literally throw his EU ticket in the dustbin?
Last edited by MicAtCyp on Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby metecyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:25 pm

Advocating the devil though I tell you those reasons never materialised. No TC was hurt during the coup (all murders at villages e.g Tohni happened after and during the Invasion in retaliation of the murders at Kyrenia by the Turks). You insist it was obvious that this would occur anyway.I say how do you know? *

I don't agree. Turkey had every right to intervene when the coup happenned. It doesn't matter if no TCs were hurt during the coup. GCs were killing each other and if the coup succeeded it was more likely that TCs would either be killed or put under immense pressure and isolation, just like before 1967. Also the coup was organized for Enosis, so did you think Turkey would watch some extremists take over and make Cyprus part of Greece?

Turkey had every right to intervene and it did. We might not agree the actions followed after the intervention (I don't agree it myself) but still Turkey's intervention was fully justified (actions followed were not though)
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:14 pm

Justified on what? On predictions?
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:17 pm

If yes then look at what the "intervention" ended up to: A clear and indisputed invasion. wasn't that predictable too?
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Postby MicAtCyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:18 pm

peace wrote: Greek Cypriot refugees will be compensated so their rights will be protected.


By whom they will be compensated? By the settlers? By Turkey? By the TCs? Or from their own pockets? Does your mother have more clever kids like you?

I told you don't rely on the provisions of the Anan Plan regarding the property issues or any other issue.The Anan Plan was not accepted because it was designed for idiots who could not see any further than their noses.
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Postby metecyp » Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:51 pm

Justified on what? On predictions?

What are you talking about? These guys organized the coup to unite Cyprus with Greece and they didn't hesitate to kill their own community members who stood against them. And now you're telling me that TCs were supposed to feel safe and secure in such an environment? Give me a break. Let's be honest here.
If yes then look at what the "intervention" ended up to: A clear and indisputed invasion. wasn't that predictable too?

I'm not trying to justify what happenned afterwards. All I'm trying to say is that Turkey had the right to intervene after the coup. We agree that the way intervention carried out was totally wrong. I don't like the fact that the intervention turned out to be an invasion but this doesn't change the fact that Turkey had the right to intervene after the coup.
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