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who shot down MH17?

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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby supporttheunderdog » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:47 pm

Robin Hood wrote:STUD:

I thought you did not want to engage in further discussion on the subject?

Short answer ..... we don't know only those that did it!

MEANS, MOTIVE, OPPORTUNITY ........ the three platforms you need to give any case a foundation. The case against the separatists falls flat on all three!

MEANS? The separatists had no BUK missiles and even if they had some they had acquired, they did not have all the bits or the expertise to use them!

The Ukraines did have many BUK missiles, but what is more significant is that to launch a BUK you need the Command Module, which is a separate vehicle. Without the RADAR targeting function of the command module the guidance system could not be configured. So even if .... as your suggestion ..... the Russians transported the BUK missiles from the Russian border to the launch point, how did the separatists (assuming they ever had the expertise) manage to launch a missile with what appears to be almost pin-point accuracy? No pictures of the command module but dozens of the launch vehicle, seems a bit strange, surely they would have travelled together? One was no good without the other!

Even the Dutch report defines the type of BUK missile, and confirmed as such by the Russians, as a specific model from debris found at the site. Another small problem ...... this model was taken out service by the Russians in 1999, but the Ukraines still have many in their inventory.

In answer to your question ...... THE SEPARATIST HAVE NO AIRCRAFT ...... which raises the question – why do the Ukraines need ground-to-air missiles, when their opponents have no aircraft?

A BBC News slot on the following day interviewed several people who claimed they saw the fighter jet. I found that difficult to believe as the article you posted points out. A German expert, actually an airline pilot (retired), said that from photos of part of the aircraft skin, from the Captains side of the flight deck, still where it fell, showed what looked very much like 30mm (?) cannon shell impacts. Having seen the same damage on a chemical plant that had been repeatedly strafed I have to agree they looked remarkably similar. But, I think an attack from a military combat aircraft an unlikely scenario.

MOTIVE? The separatists had no motive!

They, unlike the Ukraines, had no idea that the aircraft was there and even if they were looking at a vapour trail how would they know anything about the target? But the Ukraines did because MH17 was under their secondary RADAR and Ukraine ATC control, even if nothing else was working. So what happened to these records? What happened to the ATC people who were in contact until MH17 fell from the sky? The Ukraine security services took over the building within minutes and put it on lock-down.

These ATC guys have all disappeared along with the records .......... but some days later the Russians handed all their records over! The US had it all on record ..... they said so within a few hours of the event ...... Kerrys word was taken as irrefutable proof by some. They claimed not only RADAR but satellite images defining the launch point. Where is that evidence?

As GR points out, such an action would be of zero benefit to the separatists or the Russians. BUT ..... if the Ukrains thought they were targeting Putins aircraft coming back to Russia from Mexico ..... now THAT would be a motive and has been suggested as a possibility but ignored in the Western media.

OPPORTUNITY? If the separatists had no means and no credible motive .......... then making use of this opportunity would be extremely problematic.

Instead of pasting some article or articles, try working it out as if YOU were planning the event?

The Russians would have needed weeks to find this obsolete missile and the command module to operate it ..... a bit of a tall order that would need weeks if not months of planning. So let’s assume the separatist stole a BUK launcher from a Ukraine depot .... which I believe they did at one time. OK they have the missile but no-expertise and no launch module! The Russian later version command modules would be no good on an obsolete missile ..... so they would need to transport both vehicles to Ukraine but the second vehicle is never referenced by Bellingcat or anyone else. Where are all the photos of the command module?

A far more feasible explanation and only my perception, would be: some Ukraine hot head or even the Ukraine military, were trying to bring down Putin’s aircraft but got it all wrong. I think HAD the separatist carried it out ......... Russia would have tossed them to the wolves. To me the Ukraines had means/motive/opportunity but it could have been a rather embarrassing accident that the Ukraines would obviously not wish to admit to.

Nobody knows what happened and I doubt we ever will know for sure .... unless there is a full, in depth enquiry by completely independent experts, ALL evidence thoroughly examined for authenticity and the case heard by an independent International Court and that will be extremely difficult to attain. Just as the Russians have asked for from day one.


One last point. When the first inspectors arrived on site a couple of days after the crash, the site was shelled by the Ukraine forces, although they knew the inspectors were there. When the shelling eventually stopped and the inspectors were able to do a preliminary investigation and left a few days later, they had nothing but praise for the assistance they had received from the separatists and the professional and respectful way they treated the remains of the victims. Contrary to the reports of body looting that were spread by Ukraine and appeared on MSM, the inspectors found exactly the opposite. Many valuables were recovered by the separatist, including items such as wedding rings and other jewellery.


No I said I would not engage with you - see mine above - This is new post - and now you are producing Rissian Shit I am out.
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:35 pm

supporttheunderdog wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:STUD:

I thought you did not want to engage in further discussion on the subject?

Short answer ..... we don't know only those that did it!

MEANS, MOTIVE, OPPORTUNITY ........ the three platforms you need to give any case a foundation. The case against the separatists falls flat on all three!

MEANS? The separatists had no BUK missiles and even if they had some they had acquired, they did not have all the bits or the expertise to use them!

The Ukraines did have many BUK missiles, but what is more significant is that to launch a BUK you need the Command Module, which is a separate vehicle. Without the RADAR targeting function of the command module the guidance system could not be configured. So even if .... as your suggestion ..... the Russians transported the BUK missiles from the Russian border to the launch point, how did the separatists (assuming they ever had the expertise) manage to launch a missile with what appears to be almost pin-point accuracy? No pictures of the command module but dozens of the launch vehicle, seems a bit strange, surely they would have travelled together? One was no good without the other!

Even the Dutch report defines the type of BUK missile, and confirmed as such by the Russians, as a specific model from debris found at the site. Another small problem ...... this model was taken out service by the Russians in 1999, but the Ukraines still have many in their inventory.

In answer to your question ...... THE SEPARATIST HAVE NO AIRCRAFT ...... which raises the question – why do the Ukraines need ground-to-air missiles, when their opponents have no aircraft?

A BBC News slot on the following day interviewed several people who claimed they saw the fighter jet. I found that difficult to believe as the article you posted points out. A German expert, actually an airline pilot (retired), said that from photos of part of the aircraft skin, from the Captains side of the flight deck, still where it fell, showed what looked very much like 30mm (?) cannon shell impacts. Having seen the same damage on a chemical plant that had been repeatedly strafed I have to agree they looked remarkably similar. But, I think an attack from a military combat aircraft an unlikely scenario.

MOTIVE? The separatists had no motive!

They, unlike the Ukraines, had no idea that the aircraft was there and even if they were looking at a vapour trail how would they know anything about the target? But the Ukraines did because MH17 was under their secondary RADAR and Ukraine ATC control, even if nothing else was working. So what happened to these records? What happened to the ATC people who were in contact until MH17 fell from the sky? The Ukraine security services took over the building within minutes and put it on lock-down.

These ATC guys have all disappeared along with the records .......... but some days later the Russians handed all their records over! The US had it all on record ..... they said so within a few hours of the event ...... Kerrys word was taken as irrefutable proof by some. They claimed not only RADAR but satellite images defining the launch point. Where is that evidence?

As GR points out, such an action would be of zero benefit to the separatists or the Russians. BUT ..... if the Ukrains thought they were targeting Putins aircraft coming back to Russia from Mexico ..... now THAT would be a motive and has been suggested as a possibility but ignored in the Western media.

OPPORTUNITY? If the separatists had no means and no credible motive .......... then making use of this opportunity would be extremely problematic.

Instead of pasting some article or articles, try working it out as if YOU were planning the event?

The Russians would have needed weeks to find this obsolete missile and the command module to operate it ..... a bit of a tall order that would need weeks if not months of planning. So let’s assume the separatist stole a BUK launcher from a Ukraine depot .... which I believe they did at one time. OK they have the missile but no-expertise and no launch module! The Russian later version command modules would be no good on an obsolete missile ..... so they would need to transport both vehicles to Ukraine but the second vehicle is never referenced by Bellingcat or anyone else. Where are all the photos of the command module?

A far more feasible explanation and only my perception, would be: some Ukraine hot head or even the Ukraine military, were trying to bring down Putin’s aircraft but got it all wrong. I think HAD the separatist carried it out ......... Russia would have tossed them to the wolves. To me the Ukraines had means/motive/opportunity but it could have been a rather embarrassing accident that the Ukraines would obviously not wish to admit to.

Nobody knows what happened and I doubt we ever will know for sure .... unless there is a full, in depth enquiry by completely independent experts, ALL evidence thoroughly examined for authenticity and the case heard by an independent International Court and that will be extremely difficult to attain. Just as the Russians have asked for from day one.


One last point. When the first inspectors arrived on site a couple of days after the crash, the site was shelled by the Ukraine forces, although they knew the inspectors were there. When the shelling eventually stopped and the inspectors were able to do a preliminary investigation and left a few days later, they had nothing but praise for the assistance they had received from the separatists and the professional and respectful way they treated the remains of the victims. Contrary to the reports of body looting that were spread by Ukraine and appeared on MSM, the inspectors found exactly the opposite. Many valuables were recovered by the separatist, including items such as wedding rings and other jewellery.


No I said I would not engage with you - see mine above - This is new post - and now you are producing Rissian Shit I am out.


That's not Rissian Shit ..... that's my shit! :roll: :wink:
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Sotos » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:36 am

Say the rebels did it by mistake. How is that any different than the numerous other cases of innocents being killed in wars?
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:54 am

Sotos wrote:Say the rebels did it by mistake. How is that any different than the numerous other cases of innocents being killed in wars?


In my book and going from tangible evidence rather than a fabricated scenario by a group of people that have never visited the site, The Rebels didn't have the means/motive/opportunity ..... where as the Ukraine Military had all three. Probability is greater than 50% that it was the Ukraine's that did it ........ but give them the benefit of the doubt and let's say it was a mistake but the intent WAS to bring down something!

IMO: It is different because it was a deliberate action rather than collateral damage. :x
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Sotos » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:24 pm

I don't think it was deliberate. One of the two sides did it by mistake but there is no proof who did it so both sides deny it.
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Robin Hood » Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:49 pm

Sotos wrote:I don't think it was deliberate. One of the two sides did it by mistake but there is no proof who did it so both sides deny it.


As I said ..... nobody knows what really happened except those that carried it out!

IMO: I cannot see how the rebels could have done it .... they simply didn't have the tools! And, if the Russians supplied the tools, where are the photo's of the command module ..... the missiles are virtually useless without it? As far as I can find out, loading the target parameters into a BUK missile guidance system cannot be done with a map, a pair of binoculars and a lap top. :roll:
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Sotos » Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:53 pm

And, if the Russians supplied the tools, where are the photo's of the command module


Why should there be public photos of everything? It seems to me it is more possible that the rebels would do such mistake than the army of Ukraine.
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Get Real! » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:05 am

Another great article…

"US Looks to Southeast Asia to Unleash its ISIS Hordes"

https://journal-neo.org/2017/11/27/us-l ... is-hordes/
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Robin Hood » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:36 pm

Sotos wrote:I don't think it was deliberate. One of the two sides did it by mistake but there is no proof who did it so both sides deny it.


If it was the rebels, and I have my doubts about that, then it could well have been an accident as they were aiming a BUK missile they did not have the skills to operate, at an 'enemy' aircraft! But firing off a BUK without pre-setting the target parameters, as they had no command module, would be like playing darts with a blindfold on?

If it was the Ukraine military then it must have been a deliberate act to bring down a civilian aircraft as, they DID have all the tools and all the parameters (Flight number, Squawk Ident, Altitude, speed and heading) but their opponents have no aircraft ! :roll:
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Re: who shot down MH17?

Postby Get Real! » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:50 pm

I can’t imagine the Russian military allowing “rebels” to access and control such complex systems and neither does it look like something that a “rebel” (essentially a citizen who joins a militia) can take over and start firing missiles without significant training.

See pictures of the control systems used for the BUK, below…

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ped%29.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... terior.JPG

Taken from…

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Buk_missile_system


Does that look like something that you and I can just pull up a chair and start using? :lol:
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