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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:02 am

Robin Hood wrote:So, surely the inverse is true? Convince the people that air crashes are mainly due to pilot error ..... whether that is actually true or not ...... and people are told “Look our automated pilotless aircraft have not had any serious problems and no crashes ...... and you can travel from London to New York in our modern automated aircraft for $50 return ..... because we don’t have to pay two guys to sit up front and gaze out of the window just in case they are needed ................ or pay $500 return and have the ‘two pilots up front’ version if that makes you more secure!" Once the automated flights catch on and become the norm then the piloted version will become more and more expensive until it prices itself out of the market.


I take your point about propaganda but obviously the reverse reverse is true! Pilots and their unions would be fighting the reverse propaganda war insisting that two pilots are necessary for safe flight.

And of course all aircraft couldn’t be made pilotless on day #1. The battle would be over the first pilotless flight and the unions would surely hold the power of strike action to stop every other flight to prevent it – I suspect that is why we still have train drivers.

Also, it doesn’t cost ~$90K per flight to have the two guys sitting up front and you’d have to factor in the extra costs of automation – extra sensors, RADAR, LIDAR, the AI, presumably some form of machine vision system so the aircraft can ‘see’ the terrain and decide that landing on the Hudson is the least worst option?

Robin Hood wrote:As humans we need thinking time and by the time we think it out it is too late. So we respond on instinct which could go either way. Program the system to preserve a child’s life at all costs and the system will say swerve to avoid killing the child ...... and maybe unintentionally cause an accident involving a bus-full of children.

I would say that is something that is impossible to deal with ..... you would have to just take your chances that the system makes the right decision ..... after all, we all place that trust in others when we are their passenger! Is that really any different? :?:


The big difference is that if I’m driving my car and do something stupid like making a phone call or overtaking on a blind bend and as a result run over a load of children standing at a bus stop I’ll be arrested and punished – almost certainly will a jail sentence.

If a Google Car makes a stupid mistake and say swerves to avoid a cat and as a result runs over a load of children standing at a bus stop then who is going to be punished? The car owner who was sitting in the back reading a newspaper? Or will Google and their AI face $Millions or perhaps $Trillions in lawsuits because their cars valued the life of kitty over kiddies…?

And what if an automated aircraft crashed and the subsequent investigation showed that in circumstances that nobody predicted (like that 777 that crashed at Heathrow with ice in the fuel lines) the aircraft would choose to land on a convenient school playing field rather than trying to stretch the glide onto the runway? Kerrrchiiing! Bye, bye Airbus or Boeing...
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:57 pm

Cyprusgrump:
The big difference is that if I’m driving my car and do something stupid like making a phone call or overtaking on a blind bend and as a result run over a load of children standing at a bus stop I’ll be arrested and punished – almost certainly will a jail sentence.

In that case you would have knowingly been breaking the law and would deserve any punishment that was dished out to you! It was NOT an error of judgement or an unforeseen failure of the mechanics/system.

If a Google Car makes a stupid mistake and say swerves to avoid a cat and as a result runs over a load of children standing at a bus stop then who is going to be punished? The car owner who was sitting in the back reading a newspaper? Or will Google and their AI face $Millions or perhaps $Trillions in lawsuits because their cars valued the life of kitty over kiddies…?

You could always sue the cat? :wink:

Whatever happens in an automated system it is not intentional and they are enormously complex. That is why they run three parallel software programs in commercial aircraft, all doing the same thing but each doing it differently because each program is put together by a separate team. By voting 2 out of 3 you assume two systems will not be wrong simultaneously.

And what if an automated aircraft crashed and the subsequent investigation showed that in circumstances that nobody predicted (like that 777 that crashed at Heathrow with ice in the fuel lines) the aircraft would choose to land on a convenient school playing field rather than trying to stretch the glide onto the runway? Kerrrchiiing! Bye, bye Airbus or Boeing...

But the pilots in the incident you mentioned had to do some pretty fancy thinking when they realised the problem. I would suggest that a computer could well have reached the same conclusion ..... but seconds earlier? Even then, the reason became obvious later and it was apparently not the first time it had happened.

I think the blame game applied every time something goes wrong is unreasonable. If, after investigation, it is found that someone is guilty of malpractice or incompetence, then that is when blame should be determined.

I don’t believe Boeing did anything deliberately wrong, say like a short cut to bigger profits, that caused the crashes. IMO: I would question only that this ‘safety’ device appears to have not been triplicated in the control system software and even if it was, unbelievably it relied on a single sensor, so each software stream would get the same identical input and would assume no fault condition.

My own experience is that the shift to automation is inevitable and in all professions. It was only just over a 100 years ago that man left the ground for the first time in a machine and managed to fly under power for a few hundred feet, just like a bird. We have come an awful long way since then ....... and the transition to full automation in commercial aircraft has only just started. Isn’t Amazon talking about using drones to deliver to their customers? Now scale that up! Prove it works with freight and the airlines will eventually follow suit. :)
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:40 pm

Robin Hood wrote:Cyprusgrump:
The big difference is that if I’m driving my car and do something stupid like making a phone call or overtaking on a blind bend and as a result run over a load of children standing at a bus stop I’ll be arrested and punished – almost certainly will a jail sentence.

In that case you would have knowingly been breaking the law and would deserve any punishment that was dished out to you! It was NOT an error of judgement or an unforeseen failure of the mechanics/system.

If a Google Car makes a stupid mistake and say swerves to avoid a cat and as a result runs over a load of children standing at a bus stop then who is going to be punished? The car owner who was sitting in the back reading a newspaper? Or will Google and their AI face $Millions or perhaps $Trillions in lawsuits because their cars valued the life of kitty over kiddies…?

You could always sue the cat? :wink:

Whatever happens in an automated system it is not intentional and they are enormously complex. That is why they run three parallel software programs in commercial aircraft, all doing the same thing but each doing it differently because each program is put together by a separate team. By voting 2 out of 3 you assume two systems will not be wrong simultaneously.

And what if an automated aircraft crashed and the subsequent investigation showed that in circumstances that nobody predicted (like that 777 that crashed at Heathrow with ice in the fuel lines) the aircraft would choose to land on a convenient school playing field rather than trying to stretch the glide onto the runway? Kerrrchiiing! Bye, bye Airbus or Boeing...

But the pilots in the incident you mentioned had to do some pretty fancy thinking when they realised the problem. I would suggest that a computer could well have reached the same conclusion ..... but seconds earlier? Even then, the reason became obvious later and it was apparently not the first time it had happened.

I think the blame game applied every time something goes wrong is unreasonable. If, after investigation, it is found that someone is guilty of malpractice or incompetence, then that is when blame should be determined.

I don’t believe Boeing did anything deliberately wrong, say like a short cut to bigger profits, that caused the crashes. IMO: I would question only that this ‘safety’ device appears to have not been triplicated in the control system software and even if it was, unbelievably it relied on a single sensor, so each software stream would get the same identical input and would assume no fault condition.

My own experience is that the shift to automation is inevitable and in all professions. It was only just over a 100 years ago that man left the ground for the first time in a machine and managed to fly under power for a few hundred feet, just like a bird. We have come an awful long way since then ....... and the transition to full automation in commercial aircraft has only just started. Isn’t Amazon talking about using drones to deliver to their customers? Now scale that up! Prove it works with freight and the airlines will eventually follow suit. :)



Ignore the real world, good for you! :lol:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:59 am

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:56 am

Londonrake wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Prime-Air/b?ie=UTF8&node=8037720011


Drone attack ......... 'drone mugging' Falcons to replace S-300 for local air defence? The Kremlin is one step ahead ..... again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOdAKmzdU60 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Known as the Falcon Unmanned Copter Killer ..... or FUCK for short! :wink:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:23 am

Robin Hood wrote:
Londonrake wrote:https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Prime-Air/b?ie=UTF8&node=8037720011


Drone attack ......... 'drone mugging' Falcons to replace S-300 for local air defence? The Kremlin is one step ahead ..... again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOdAKmzdU60 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Known as the Falcon Unmanned Copter Killer ..... or FUCK for short! :wink:




Image

They could end up needing a lot. This isn't too far from becoming a reality I believe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlO2gcs1YvM

:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby B25 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:13 pm

That's F scarey!

Who are these assholes that develop destructive weapons ffs.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:22 pm

B25 wrote:That's F scarey!

Who are these assholes that develop destructive weapons ffs.


Don’t panic B25 .... I have it on good authority that the CIA are doing everything they can to prevent this technology from falling into wrong hands. They will ensure they are only ever used to take out the bad guys ..... roughly translated as any entity or individual, that they deem to be a threat to the ‘exceptional and indispensable Nation’ and their National interests .... but even including their own if they look like being a threat to ...... well, I can’t actually tell you that as I suspect I am already on their target list!

That is why I wear a tin-foil hat blazoned with MAGA and I sing God Bless America as I move around ..... so far, so good ..... I’ve got AI lulled into a false sense of security! Roll on the revolution ............

Wait a minute !!!!! :shock: :shock: Is that really a swarm of hornets hovering around outside the house? :? :o :arrow: :arrow:

I think it is a case of Geeks develop and design the machines ....... then it is arseholes that turn them into weapons. Lets hope the Geeks can build in true intelligence that really does identify the good guy from the bad guy? An intelligence based on morality not on a doctrine? :wink:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:13 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
B25 wrote:That's F scarey!

Who are these assholes that develop destructive weapons ffs.


Don’t panic B25 .... I have it on good authority that the - GRU - are doing everything they can to prevent this - chemical warfare - technology from falling into wrong hands. They will ensure they are only ever used to take out the bad guys ..... roughly translated as any entity or individual - particularly in London or Salisbury - , that they deem to be a threat to what would the world be without Mother Russia and their National interests .... but even including their own - Skripal/Litvinenko - if they look like being a threat to ...... well, I can’t actually tell you that as I suspect I am already on their target list! :lol: :lol: :lol: I think you can relax in that regard. Just like me and everybody else with "opinions" on such forums, we're, perhaps sadly, total nobodys.

That is why I wear a tin-foil hat blazoned with MAGA and I sing God Bless America as I move around ..... so far, so good ..... I’ve got AI lulled into a false sense of security! Roll on the revolution ............ - Sorry but you're surely destined to die a disappointed man in that respect. There isn't going to be a war between all powerful Russia and that paper tiger, the USA :(

Wait a minute !!!!! :shock: Is that really a swarm of hornets hovering around outside the house? :? Tic toc? :lol:

I think it is a case of Geeks develop and design the machines ....... then it is arseholes that turn them into weapons. Lets hope the Geeks can build in true intelligence that really does identify the good guy from the bad guy? An intelligence based on morality not on a doctrine? :wink:


The Youtube's a fantasy of course. Sorry to go setting you off on the usual. Get yourself a cup of tea. I'll stick to this liter bottle of gin :shock: Happy Easter to you. :wink:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:28 am

Londonrake wrote:
The Youtube's a fantasy of course. Sorry to go setting you off on the usual. Get yourself a cup of tea. I'll stick to this liter bottle of gin :shock: Happy Easter to you. :wink:


These devices would be handy though and I hope the US is close to building something like that.

There are many bad guys we need to take out:

1. Vladimir Pootin the Great (Czar of little Russia with small country syndrome),
2. Korean Supreme Dick
3. Arsad
4. ISIS terrorist worldwide still at large
5. New Zealand's Jacinda Adern
6. Tsipras
7. Australia's Bill Shortfused
8. Joe Biden
9. Shillery Clinton
10. Teresa May
11. Erdog the Mufti of the Muslim Caliphate

I'm sure we can think of a few more bad guys.

I'm in favour of this technology. America needs to get on with it and develop such a weapon to protect the world from evil. Or the EU. One of us NATO members or allies anyway.
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