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[Paphitis]

It won't happen Kikapu. Firstly, they need to address the incapacitation scenario - requiring 2 pilots.

Secondly, you need a Pilot Monitoring. It is the best error capture that we currently have.

Usually technologies like this are first tested by the Military. there seems to be no evidence that the military will be headed down that path. New aircraft are still multi crew in the military.

This has been discussed by Tony Kern in Flight Discipline. There have been many studies completed whether going down that path is viable, and the answer is a NO. Imagine if a B797 crashed with one pilot, what would happen to Boeing for its lack of redundancy if this was a factor, which it likely would be.

It's a dead duck, at least for the foreseeable future.

I would very much like to know who these industry analysts are. It doesn't say.

B797 will have a minimum of 2 pilots. In fact it will have 3 to 4 pilots for long haul. Can't get out of that legal requirement.

You also said you would be apprehensive about getting onto a MAXI. Will you not be apprehensive about getting on a single pilot aircraft? Statistically speaking, a single pilot aircraft is many times more likely to crash than a multi crewed aircraft. I don't know the actually statistic but it is a phenomenal increase which cant be dismissed. You can look it up for yourself.

If I were you, I would prefer to travel on a MAXI than any single pilot RPT aircraft. The only single pilot machine I would get on is a general Aviation Cessna not an advance 100 million dollar passenger jet.

Boeing and the industry won't play Russian Roulette with their businesses. There are also regulatory requirements. Regular Public Transport certified aircraft require 2 Pilots by law. The FFA will not repeal or issue exceptions to aircraft type. They just won't risk it because the most advance best practices in Crew Resource Management prevent them.

As for the technology. It is already at a very high level, with very high amounts of automation. I doubt the B797 will be a massive huge breakthrough over the B787 and A350 anyway. It might be a slight improvement (speculation). This has also created a large amount of decline in Automation Discipline where pilots place too much trust in the equipment on the one hand, or lose complete Situational Awareness on the other hand. This has caused accidents in its own right and killed hundreds of people globally. So the issues with automation along with their many advantages are also noted. Automation reduces pilot workload, and that is important during the high workload high stress points.

In addition, the B797 is still just a concept. Boeing are deciding this year whether to proceed with the project and then launch it by 2025. My guess is that they will launch it but it won't be a single pilot aircraft.

All your points are valid, Paphitis, however, there is no getting away from more automation to full automation on the horizon. As the article stated, they will start with one pilot operation (plus ground pilot support) with cargo flights, and once that has proven itself, move to the passenger liners.

It is getting more and more difficult for the pilots to keep up with more automation to fly the planes safely. It is going to take automation to manage automation to understand the situation and to solve it efficiently and effectively, lets say something like "HAL" (2001 Space Odyssey).

I think many people are going to be very apprehensive to get on the MAX if and when they take to the skies again, only because it has a bad reputation right now. It is only human nature.

We already have full automation Kikapu. We have had it for at least 30 years. We also have fully pilot-less drones.

If you can get a copy of Flight Discipline from Tony Kern, do it and have a read of automation discipline. It's very interesting. In there you will see studies conducted by world renowned Psychologists who are against the idea of full automation.

Tony Kerm has about 12000 hours on B-1B Bombers. The automation was to such an extend where the B-1B couldn't be manually flown over the speed of sound low to the ground. They were flying with terrain Following radar about 200FT above the deck. The pilots are just passengers. Same technology that was on the Tornado Panavia and F-111. There were a lot of crashed though.

Also, it list 42 major Air Disasters to the year 1997 attributed in some part to automation. I can list them all, but I just don't have the time. These are in Appendix A.

This is what would happen. They will go single pilot for Freight and Cargo only. Passenger RPT will never be allowed single pilot. I don't think the FFA will certify that type of operation, and the public will just shy away from it too before they shy away from the MAXI.

Cargo and Freight isn't some gateway to unleash single pilot onto the traveling public.

[Kikapu]

With time and better technology for single pilot with full automation, it will become acceptable to the public, just like now the Subway in Singapore is fully Automated. A single pilot would still have a second pilot on the ground for cross checks. Since only one pilot is required to physically land a plane or take-off, the pilot on the ground will just replace the second pilot in the cockpit, until the plane is fully automated where it will take off and land by itself, in which case, only one pilot will be needed in the cockpit and eventually non in the cockpit, but just one on the ground. The cockpits will not look like cockpits we know today in the future. They will very much be like any other UAV. As to when passenger planes will be like the UAVs in the future, it is anyone’s guess, but future generations will be more accepting to these futuristic changes than the present and the next generation, but the work on futuristic changes are already happening little by little today.

[Londonrake]

US regulators defend 737 Max actions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48391072

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[Paphitis]

What we see here is nothing new at all.



personally, I think the MAXI is going to be one of the best airliners in the air for the next 30 years. Especially with all the scrutiny on it, I believe it will be the safest aircraft in the air too.

[Paphitis]

With time and better technology for single pilot with full automation, it will become acceptable to the public, just like now the Subway in Singapore is fully Automated. A single pilot would still have a second pilot on the ground for cross checks. Since only one pilot is required to physically land a plane or take-off, the pilot on the ground will just replace the second pilot in the cockpit, until the plane is fully automated where it will take off and land by itself, in which case, only one pilot will be needed in the cockpit and eventually non in the cockpit, but just one on the ground. The cockpits will not look like cockpits we know today in the future. They will very much be like any other UAV. As to when passenger planes will be like the UAVs in the future, it is anyone’s guess, but future generations will be more accepting to these futuristic changes than the present and the next generation, but the work on futuristic changes are already happening little by little today.

Official statement from Boeing is that their new MMA (B797) which they plan to officially announce or launch in 2020, will be a 2 Pilot aircraft. They do not believe that passneger RPT and Single Pilot Ops are compatible with safety or the regulatory environment at this point in time.

[Kikapu]

With time and better technology for single pilot with full automation, it will become acceptable to the public, just like now the Subway in Singapore is fully Automated. A single pilot would still have a second pilot on the ground for cross checks. Since only one pilot is required to physically land a plane or take-off, the pilot on the ground will just replace the second pilot in the cockpit, until the plane is fully automated where it will take off and land by itself, in which case, only one pilot will be needed in the cockpit and eventually non in the cockpit, but just one on the ground. The cockpits will not look like cockpits we know today in the future. They will very much be like any other UAV. As to when passenger planes will be like the UAVs in the future, it is anyone’s guess, but future generations will be more accepting to these futuristic changes than the present and the next generation, but the work on futuristic changes are already happening little by little today.

Official statement from Boeing is that their new MMA (B797) which they plan to officially announce or launch in 2020, will be a 2 Pilot aircraft. They do not believe that passneger RPT and Single Pilot Ops are compatible with safety or the regulatory environment at this point in time.

That is correct, Paphitis, as far as passenger planes are concerned, but for cargo planes, they can still have a one pilot cockpit configured to have the second pilot on the ground. No one expects to have a one pilot cockpit for passenger planes until the one pilot system has been tried and tested over many years.

[Paphitis]

With time and better technology for single pilot with full automation, it will become acceptable to the public, just like now the Subway in Singapore is fully Automated. A single pilot would still have a second pilot on the ground for cross checks. Since only one pilot is required to physically land a plane or take-off, the pilot on the ground will just replace the second pilot in the cockpit, until the plane is fully automated where it will take off and land by itself, in which case, only one pilot will be needed in the cockpit and eventually non in the cockpit, but just one on the ground. The cockpits will not look like cockpits we know today in the future. They will very much be like any other UAV. As to when passenger planes will be like the UAVs in the future, it is anyone’s guess, but future generations will be more accepting to these futuristic changes than the present and the next generation, but the work on futuristic changes are already happening little by little today.

Official statement from Boeing is that their new MMA (B797) which they plan to officially announce or launch in 2020, will be a 2 Pilot aircraft. They do not believe that passneger RPT and Single Pilot Ops are compatible with safety or the regulatory environment at this point in time.

That is correct, Paphitis, as far as passenger planes are concerned, but for cargo planes, they can still have a one pilot cockpit configured to have the second pilot on the ground. No one expects to have a one pilot cockpit for passenger planes until the one pilot system has been tried and tested over many years.

They didn't mention that at all. They just said it will seat 2 pilots and be designed for multi crew operations.

They have the technology to do what you are saying. But the industry isn't ready for this and it won't be ready for it in our lifetimes.

[Kikapu]

With time and better technology for single pilot with full automation, it will become acceptable to the public, just like now the Subway in Singapore is fully Automated. A single pilot would still have a second pilot on the ground for cross checks. Since only one pilot is required to physically land a plane or take-off, the pilot on the ground will just replace the second pilot in the cockpit, until the plane is fully automated where it will take off and land by itself, in which case, only one pilot will be needed in the cockpit and eventually non in the cockpit, but just one on the ground. The cockpits will not look like cockpits we know today in the future. They will very much be like any other UAV. As to when passenger planes will be like the UAVs in the future, it is anyone’s guess, but future generations will be more accepting to these futuristic changes than the present and the next generation, but the work on futuristic changes are already happening little by little today.

Official statement from Boeing is that their new MMA (B797) which they plan to officially announce or launch in 2020, will be a 2 Pilot aircraft. They do not believe that passneger RPT and Single Pilot Ops are compatible with safety or the regulatory environment at this point in time.

That is correct, Paphitis, as far as passenger planes are concerned, but for cargo planes, they can still have a one pilot cockpit configured to have the second pilot on the ground. No one expects to have a one pilot cockpit for passenger planes until the one pilot system has been tried and tested over many years.

They didn't mention that at all. They just said it will seat 2 pilots and be designed for multi crew operations.

They have the technology to do what you are saying. But the industry isn't ready for this and it won't be ready for it in our lifetimes.

It's true that one pilot cargo plane was not talked about, just the passenger planes, but it doesn't mean it's not on the cards. Of course Boeing is going to design the B-797 as a 2 pilot cockpit since planes have a way of being interchangeable in it's lifetime, being in different usages as a passenger plane and as a cargo plane.

[Robin Hood]

Back to the OP ..............

Looks like Paphitis should make some space available in his diary for a bit of further job training!

Boeing 737 MAX Crash Reveals A Severe Problem With Older Boeing 737 NGs - By Moon of Alabama.

The fleet of Boeing 737 MAX planes will stay out on the ground longer than anticipated. Boeing promised a new software package to correct the severe problems with its Manouver Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS). The delivery was supposed to be ready in April. A month later it has still not arrived at the Federal Aviation Agency where it will take at least a month to certify it. The FAA will not be the only one to decide when the plane can come back into the flight line. Other country's agencies will do their own independent review and will likely take their time.

The 737 MAX incident also revealed a problem with older generations of the 737 type of plane that is only now coming into light. Simulator experiments (video) showed that the recovery procedures Boeing provided for the case of a severe mistrim of the plane is not sufficient to bring the plane back under control. The root cause of that inconvenient fact does not lie with the 737 MAX but with its predecessor, the Boeing 737 New Generation or NG.

This was known in pilot circles for some time but will only now receive wider public attention:

The Boeing 737 Max's return to commercial airline service is reportedly being further delayed by the Federal Aviation Administration.

US government officials told The Wall Street Journal's Andy Pasztor that the FAA is evaluating the emergency procedures for not only the Max but also the older generations of the 737 including the [once] hot-selling Boeing 737 NG.
According to the officials, the broadened evaluation will take a look at how pilots of all 737 variant are instructed to respond to emergency situations.

Here is a detailed explanation why the FAA is now looking into the pilot training for older 737 types.

Full article..........

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/05/boeing-737-max-crash-reveals-a-severe-problem-with-older-boeing-737-ngs.html#more

[Paphitis]

I just flew on a QANTAS NG from Brisbane to Canberra this morning.

No problems at all. All NG 600, 700 and 800s are AOK

Just goes to show that your source is nonsense because they would have grounded the entire global fleet if there was anything amiss with the EPs. Not only that but pilots would need to be retrained with the new EPs.

Looks like your junk source is the only outlet running the story. No one else is and no one in the industry is aware of any greater problems with the NG.

I think you need to have your head examined. Stop reading junk.

And what a coincidence that I happen to have flown in one this very day. Hundreds of them are flying this instance too.