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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:09 am

repulsewarrior wrote:...off topic a bit, but they sure are yar.

UK F-35s at Akrotiri,

https://in-cyprus.com/uk-f35-jets-in-fo ... us-photos/


They are only practicing and there are only four of them shared between the RAF and the Navy! Does the F 35B have a system similar to MCAS? :wink:

As military jets are designed to be inherently unstable they rely much more on automatic in-flight 'correction' ..... and there have been several accidents since they went into service. Just saying. :)
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:11 pm

And the Boeing 737 MAX saga continues. It’s return to the skies has been pushed back again to September by American Airlines. Perhaps time is getting closer for Boeing to recall the 400 odd MAXs already sold and re-fit them with the original engines for the NG models and re-sell them at a modest discount. In the meantime, re-design the MAX from scratch that would accommodate the big engines and get rid of the MCAS altogether.

Boeing’s reputation is getting lower and lower the longer the MAX saga continues. If Boeing is going to get the trust back, it needs to write off the present MAX and generate a new MAX, because it is no longer a question as to what would happen to Boeing should another faulty MAX crashes regardless of the cause, short of act of God, Boeing is going to get buried in lawsuits, but not just Boeing, but also the airline which operated the crashed MAX as they too will get buried in lawsuits as being co-conspirators in flying the faulty MAX.

Time for Boeing to cut it’s losses and get back to building great safe planes again.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:01 am

The can't recall the B737 and fit older engines. The MAX requires the bigger engine because of its higher Operating weights and in addition I think the big operators like AA, Virgin and American Airlines want the MAXI because it fills a nice little void.

It was the industry that wanted the MAXI to begin with so they are gonna make it work because of the reduction in operating costs.

AA and QANTAS and others are mainline Boeing operators and they prefer to have the B737 than an Airbus 320.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:09 am

Here is a great little lecture about The Children of the Magenta Line which is what pilots are in this modern age.

We are already operating at an extremely high level of automation, and the statistics show that this very high level of automation can reduce workload and it certainly does that but in certain situations we are saturated with tasks and checks and sometimes there is a complete breakdown of Situational Awareness.

Automation has been a factor of every major Air Disaster for the last few decades. Instead of reducing the accident rate, they are finding break downs in Automation Discipline because the level of automation is inappropriate.

The industry is addressing the issues with Crew Resource Management courses and Human Factors, but automation is so entrenched it requires a complete culture change.

Automation has a LOT of issues.

I for one have been very uneasy about Automation. I remain connected to the plane at all times under 10000FT and within 1000FT of all level outs - hands on control and throttles because the aircraft literally has a mind of its own and will do everything and there are many instances it gets it horrible wrong. You got to stay 2 steps ahead of it because if you are not, you're asking for trouble.

Easy to get into a false sense of security.



In the end, the same things apply today as they have since WW1!

You got to fly the plane.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:03 am

Kikapu:
And the Boeing 737 MAX saga continues. It’s return to the skies has been pushed back again to September by American Airlines. Perhaps time is getting closer for Boeing to recall the 400 odd MAXs already sold and re-fit them with the original engines for the NG models and re-sell them at a modest discount. In the meantime, re-design the MAX from scratch that would accommodate the big engines and get rid of the MCAS altogether.

I nice thought but the cost would be enormous .... I would think enough to bankrupt the company? IMO: The MAX is toast and about all they can do is convert them to transport aircraft ..... and refund the money to purchasers. Problem is then, they would spend the money buying Airbus Models ..... or even Russian or Chinese versions. The US and Boeing could not tolerate that!
Boeing’s reputation is getting lower and lower the longer the MAX saga continues. If Boeing is going to get the trust back, it needs to write off the present MAX and generate a new MAX, because it is no longer a question as to what would happen to Boeing should another faulty MAX crashes regardless of the cause, short of act of God, Boeing is going to get buried in lawsuits, but not just Boeing, but also the airline which operated the crashed MAX as they too will get buried in lawsuits as being co-conspirators in flying the faulty MAX.

Their problem from the start of this saga is ....IMAGE! Boeing tried to cover it up and blame others and it misfired, the truth came out and Boeings reputation went down the pan! The cost of developing a new version of MAX would be very high and would need government subsidies because no other country will buy it until proved, so you are really looking at an internal US market ...... and Australia of course! :wink: :lol: :lol:
Time for Boeing to cut it’s losses and get back to building great safe planes again
.
Could be too late to recover their reputation and others will take the market away from them. Once trust is gone it is hard to get it back! :(
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Paphitis wrote:The can't recall the B737 and fit older engines. The MAX requires the bigger engine because of its higher Operating weights and in addition I think the big operators like AA, Virgin and American Airlines want the MAXI because it fills a nice little void.

It was the industry that wanted the MAXI to begin with so they are gonna make it work because of the reduction in operating costs.

AA and QANTAS and others are mainline Boeing operators and they prefer to have the B737 than an Airbus 320.

Well, let’s wait and see as some reports are saying that the MAX may not even fly this year.

Paphitis, a question not relating to the MAX. If I don’t see the flaps/slats extended on my flight just before take-off, what shall I do? It’s no point pressing the call button for the flight attendant as they are seated and buckled in for take-off.I would be concerned that the pilots may have forgotten, which may cause the plane to stall upon take-off,especially if the flight is full. How can I alert the crew safely without appearing like a crazy person. This is a serious question. Thanks.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:11 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The can't recall the B737 and fit older engines. The MAX requires the bigger engine because of its higher Operating weights and in addition I think the big operators like AA, Virgin and American Airlines want the MAXI because it fills a nice little void.

It was the industry that wanted the MAXI to begin with so they are gonna make it work because of the reduction in operating costs.

AA and QANTAS and others are mainline Boeing operators and they prefer to have the B737 than an Airbus 320.

Well, let’s wait and see as some reports are saying that the MAX may not even fly this year.

Paphitis, a question not relating to the MAX. If I don’t see the flaps/slats extended on my flight just before take-off, what shall I do? It’s no point pressing the call button for the flight attendant as they are seated and buckled in for take-off.I would be concerned that the pilots may have forgotten, which may cause the plane to stall upon take-off,especially if the flight is full. How can I alert the crew safely without appearing like a crazy person. This is a serious question. Thanks.


That is an interesting question. If you have a concern, the best thing you an do is alert the Cabin Crew. Under the latest Crew Resource Regimes, the Cabin Crew are obligated to pass the information on to the pilots.

Your problem however might not be attended to if the aircraft has entered the runway because the Flight Crew will also be seated ready for TO.

The Flaps are normally set pretty much straight away from push back so you may have a couple of minutes to let the Cabin Crew know as they are giving their safety briefs.

It is unlikely they would forget the flaps. These are check list items. There are also configuration alarms for flaps. As soon as the Throttles are advanced, the Flap Configuration alarms are set off, unless the pilots hit that Flap Overide switch. It's an instead abort if any alarm is illuminated or sounded off.

The reason why they would do that is on very long runways, the V1 rotation speed is delayed and the aircraft takes off faster and longer for improved second segment climb performance. It's pointless to do however at very busy airports like Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne because its usually a stepped climb out because of all the traffic everywhere.

The other time the Flap Overide is pressed is on Finals when there is a massive crosswind and wind shear. We add an additive to the Vref (speed on the flare out) as we hit the Touch Down Markers and instead of landing with Full Flap we land with 1/2 Flap because the handling characteristics are much better in high crosswind and wind shear situations. You add an extra 5 knots fr each stage of flap on to the Vref and you also add half the crosswind component so you come in a bit faster. Remember, the stall speed is also higher so the Vref must maintain the 1.3 x Stall Speed.

If the Flap Overide button isn't hit, you get all the configuration alarms as the aircraft descends below 500 Feet Above Ground Level.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:17 am

This is pretty funny. Captain Roger Victor is another child of the magenta line. :lol:

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:59 am

Paphitis wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:The can't recall the B737 and fit older engines. The MAX requires the bigger engine because of its higher Operating weights and in addition I think the big operators like AA, Virgin and American Airlines want the MAXI because it fills a nice little void.

It was the industry that wanted the MAXI to begin with so they are gonna make it work because of the reduction in operating costs.

AA and QANTAS and others are mainline Boeing operators and they prefer to have the B737 than an Airbus 320.

Well, let’s wait and see as some reports are saying that the MAX may not even fly this year.

Paphitis, a question not relating to the MAX. If I don’t see the flaps/slats extended on my flight just before take-off, what shall I do? It’s no point pressing the call button for the flight attendant as they are seated and buckled in for take-off.I would be concerned that the pilots may have forgotten, which may cause the plane to stall upon take-off,especially if the flight is full. How can I alert the crew safely without appearing like a crazy person. This is a serious question. Thanks.


That is an interesting question. If you have a concern, the best thing you an do is alert the Cabin Crew. Under the latest Crew Resource Regimes, the Cabin Crew are obligated to pass the information on to the pilots.

Your problem however might not be attended to if the aircraft has entered the runway because the Flight Crew will also be seated ready for TO.

The Flaps are normally set pretty much straight away from push back so you may have a couple of minutes to let the Cabin Crew know as they are giving their safety briefs.

It is unlikely they would forget the flaps. These are check list items. There are also configuration alarms for flaps. As soon as the Throttles are advanced, the Flap Configuration alarms are set off, unless the pilots hit that Flap Overide switch. It's an instead abort if any alarm is illuminated or sounded off.

The reason why they would do that is on very long runways, the V1 rotation speed is delayed and the aircraft takes off faster and longer for improved second segment climb performance. It's pointless to do however at very busy airports like Sydney, Brisbane or Melbourne because its usually a stepped climb out because of all the traffic everywhere.

The other time the Flap Overide is pressed is on Finals when there is a massive crosswind and wind shear. We add an additive to the Vref (speed on the flare out) as we hit the Touch Down Markers and instead of landing with Full Flap we land with 1/2 Flap because the handling characteristics are much better in high crosswind and wind shear situations. You add an extra 5 knots fr each stage of flap on to the Vref and you also add half the crosswind component so you come in a bit faster. Remember, the stall speed is also higher so the Vref must maintain the 1.3 x Stall Speed.

If the Flap Overide button isn't hit, you get all the configuration alarms as the aircraft descends below 500 Feet Above Ground Level.


Thanks, Paphitis.

There has been some incidents in the past where flaps/slats were not deployed due to crew oversight or technical problem where the crew were not aware of the problem resulting in stalled crashes. Depending which part of the aircraft I am sitting, I constantly monitor the flaps/slats for take-offs and landings. Call me the “back seat pilot” if you like! :D
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:39 pm

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