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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 pm

Kikapu wrote:Just an observation.

If Boeing hasn‘t been able to fix the MCAS when it goes rouge on the B-737 MAX since it‘s global grounding in the last 3 weeks and counting, how the fuck did they expect the pilots of the two crashes related to the MCAS to have fixed the problem in 40 seconds whilst heading to earth at 400+ knots per/hr? :roll:


Boeing gave the pilots a mobile number in the Operations Manual in the 'Useful telephone numbers' section, to ring in case of emergencies ............ and all they got was a guy screaming 'PULL-UP! ...... PULL_UP! .....PULL_UP!'. :wink:
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:05 pm

Robin Hood wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Just an observation.

If Boeing hasn‘t been able to fix the MCAS when it goes rouge on the B-737 MAX since it‘s global grounding in the last 3 weeks and counting, how the fuck did they expect the pilots of the two crashes related to the MCAS to have fixed the problem in 40 seconds whilst heading to earth at 400+ knots per/hr? :roll:


Boeing gave the pilots a mobile number in the Operations Manual in the 'Useful telephone numbers' section, to ring in case of emergencies ............ and all they got was a guy screaming 'PULL-UP! ...... PULL_UP! .....PULL_UP!'. :wink:

That would be so funny if it wasn‘t so tragic, but it really amounts to what you have said, RH.

Apparently Boeing has told the FAA that the updated software is ready to go, and the FAA said ”er no, We don‘t think so just yet“!
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:12 am

Kikapu wrote:Just an observation.

If Boeing hasn‘t been able to fix the MCAS when it goes rouge on the B-737 MAX since it‘s global grounding in the last 3 weeks and counting, how the fuck did they expect the pilots of the two crashes related to the MCAS to have fixed the problem in 40 seconds whilst heading to earth at 400+ knots per/hr? :roll:


They have fixed it, assuming there was an issue with it to begin with. That is a pretty big assumption people are making. I am not convinced.

I don't actually believe there is an issue with the software. But if there is, the fix would have been easy to implement. But it isn't as easy as implementation. A risk assessment needs to be conducted with some other experts that are familiar (probably test pilots). When you are dealing with automation, it is risky in itself as automation causes other issues such as loss of Situational Awareness and automation does cause accidents too and kill people. There would have been reasons why the MCAS was set to do what it does initially. These things are never an accident.

They are only taking precautions, and waiting for the preliminary findings or for sign off from independent consultants (pilots) who actually know what they are talking about. FAA would not be able to do it or are unwilling to take responsibility for their decisions.

One thing you need to know about the FAA. They are technically incompetent and no one is going to sign off on it because they don't understand what MCAS is. They need to pay professional consultants to advise them. That's how it works. These consultants will get rich over it too. The going rate is about $5000 USD a day. Tax money at work here people.

Just last week I asked the regulator a question on duty and flight times, and they didn't even understand the legislation. Another time, they answered wrong. It's the public service.

Even in the investigation, the biggest experts will be people from Boeing itself, who will pretty much lead the investigation. It's going to be an interesting investigation.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Lordo » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:44 pm

stop making stupid remarks. this is no longer a risk, it is an issue. it has happened twice. the reason why they are still groundedis becasue the risk is still there. when it is minimised and the pilots have had proper training how to handle the problem they will fly again of course the trust is gone and they may not recover from this especially if all the planes they had on order are nowe cancelled.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:18 am

Lordo wrote:stop making stupid remarks. this is no longer a risk, it is an issue. it has happened twice. the reason why they are still groundedis becasue the risk is still there. when it is minimised and the pilots have had proper training how to handle the problem they will fly again of course the trust is gone and they may not recover from this especially if all the planes they had on order are nowe cancelled.


There is no official report that says it is the same as Lion Air. There is only conjecture and agreement that MCAS may have played a role. And all that from sources which in my opinion have no clue.

It all started when Ethiopian pointed the finger at Boeing immediately after the accident. In defence, Boeing has actually pointed the finger at Ethiopian. The authorities have warned both parties. Boeing has not actually accepted any responsibility and will not do so unless the investigation attributes a portion of blame to them. Then and only then they will act on that information.

There is no issue when there is a procedure to disengage. The question will be, why was it not disengaged? And who is responsible for that? What usually happens here is that blame will be apportioned to both parties in some way. There will be many findings.

Stall Avoidance Systems ALWAYS result in a crash without intervention. For instance, if you get a Stick Shaker and do nothing, a further 7 knot reduction results in STICK PUSHER, therefore nose down to avoid a stall. On Short Finals, it is disastrous if there is no intervention. The system does what it is designed to do in order to buy some time for pilots to intervene before the plane spins on its back and spears into the ground.

The question here is why there was no intervention?

Now let's say you have 2 crashes because of Stall Avoidance Systems. That to me does not indicate an issue with Stall Avoidance Systems. It's very important to understand what the systems are designed to do and achieve and the media are clueless. Which is WHY I defer once again to the investigation committee who have all the data and evidence to make accurate determinations about this crash.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:44 am

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Lordo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:45 am

my info came from an aircraft engineer who maintains these planes. just becasue bafidoboullo serves tea in an aircraft he seems to think he knows best.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Londonrake » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:13 am

Update (I think :? ):

Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 pilots 'could not stop nosedive' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47812225

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Lordo » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:22 am

how can anybody build a plane where you allow it to take control but you are not allowed to return it back to manual control. this company has had it. it will not be long before they file for chapter 7 bankruptcy.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:01 am

Here is the official report.

I haven't read it yet in full.

https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/no ... 3cfebe.pdf

Just some things that I find astonishing:

Ethiopian FO had a total of 361 Flying Hours. I heard a report about this and thought it was Flying Hours on type. But its total time.

Initial Findings:

On the basis of the initial information gathered during the course of the investigation, the following facts have been determined:

The Aircraft possessed a valid certificate of airworthiness;

The crew obtained the license and qualifications to conduct the flight;

The takeoff roll appeared normal, including normal values of left and right angle-of-attack (AOA).

Shortly after liftoff, the value of the left angle of attack sensor deviated from the right one and reached 74.5 degrees while the right angle of attack sensor value was 15.3 degrees;

then after;the stick shaker activated and remained active until near the end of the flight.

After autopilot engagement, there were small amplitude roll oscillations accompanied by lateral acceleration, rudder oscillations and slight heading changes; these oscillations also continued after the autopilot disengaged.

After the autopilot disengaged, the DFDR recorded an automatic aircraft nose down (AND) trim command four times without pilot’s input. As a result, three motions of the stabilizer trim were recorded.The FDR data also indicated that the crew utilized the electric manual trim to counter the automatic AND input.

The crew performed runaway stabilizer checklist and put the stab trim cutout switch to cutout position and confirmed that the manual trim operation was not working.


Seems like there was a Sensor malfunction with the MCAS. That is one finding, which will put Boeing in the hot seat. The reports will not actually attribute blame because this is not what these investigations are all about. But Boeing would have some work to do over this.

What is unclear as well is that the pilots were unable to make manual trim changes which is very odd. Why that is I don't know. Something very amiss here.

Aside from the sensor issue, there seems to be something wrong with the Stab Trim. Either structural failure, or the pilots did something to over-ride the manual trim inputs. The pre-liminary report remains unclear.
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