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Re: eu vote results

Postby Sotos » Thu May 30, 2019 12:00 am

erolz66 wrote:The point is under enosis, Cyprus would not exist as a nation and state and thus the very concept of a Cypriot nation - state is moot in such a scenario. Thus for GC today to maintain a narrative that

- all that is needed for the achievement of a modern and prosperous Cypriot nation that serves all Cypriots equally is for TC to reject partition, reject the need for any 'special' or 'atypical' constitutional communal protections or rights
- that the only reason TC do not just accept this, is because they are all greedy thieving barbarians

without any acknowledgement of that of the part played by GC historically not wanting even the existence of a Cypriot nation at all, let alone one that serves all Cypriots equally - that too me is just not compatible with the objective of trying to convince a majority of TC to chose to support such a solution.


Enosis is no longer a relevant issue. I already agreed that I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis and why they fought against it when they were given a chance. If I was a TC I would have done the same. That said, Cyprus being "independent" is not my top priority. If we freely choose to be part of something greater because this would serve our interests better and protect us from external threats then I think this is fine. Enosis is dead, but maybe in the future EU could evolve into a country, akin to the USA. I want the option for us to freely and democratically decide if we will be part of this or not, and both choices would be equally valid.

erolz66 wrote:What you say and do is the only thing that matters, in the sense that it is something that you have direct absolute control over. Say to me today that, given the history of Cyprus, you understand and accept my concerns as a TC that I might be unfairly discriminated against in a unitary Cypriot state, simple because I am TC and not GC and then go on to explain why, understanding that, you still believe that such a unitary state is the best way forward for all of us, then we have a chance. However say to me the only solution is for me to stop being a barbarian thieving Turk and accept living in a unitary Cyprus where I will be seen and treated as such or fuck of back to Turkey, then what way forward is there other than partition ?


Things like "Barbarian Turk" and "fuck off back to Turkey" are just part of a "verbal fight" that are used to intentionally offend or as a response to an offence. Beyond that, I understand your concerns, but I think issues in the present (which you talk about later) are far more important than a selective use of history. This is not to say that history is not relevant, but things change, and if we will be using history then we should look all sides of it objectively.

erolz66 wrote:Here I disagree fundamentally. Trying to 'force' acceptance of a unitary state solution on the TC community simply by making things as 'uncomfortable' as possible for them if they do not, does not work, has not worked and will not work. We know this or should by now.


I didn't say "force acceptance of a unitary state" on the contrary I said that we can't have a single country for all of us without agreement. Some people hope that one day we will have the power to liberate the north militarily. The chances of that happening are very little, but even if it was possible I am now against this. Forcing TCs something they are against will mean a constant strife and problems. Just like "independence" is not my top priority, having Cyprus whole again, while very desirable, is not my top priority either. My top priority is for my country to be a prosperous, democratic, peaceful place where the human rights of all people are respected.

What I did say is that we should offer to TCs options, including (1) A BBF with the most we are willing to give (if the most we can give is not enough for TCs, then that option is dead) (2) Return to what was agreed in 1959 with only minor changes to bring it up to date (if we can't agree on something new, then what is already agreed should be an option to fall back to), (3) Partition with an 18% - 82% split (if we can't have a country together, this is the most fair (or least unfair) way to do it). Then we should put pressure on the TCs to choose one of the options. None of those options are ideal for us and TCs should realize that they too will need to compromise because this problem can't go on forever.

erolz66 wrote: I simply do not believe that the RoC says I am entitled to a RoC passport is down to any reason other than it is a requirement of being able to maintain and sustain it's recognition as the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots.


OK, say your application went smoothly and there was no discrimination against you. Wouldn't you say: "they did it because they were required to do so"? You shouldn't compare how you are treated now with how you would be treated in a united Cyprus. Now we are essentially in the cease fire or a war. As a result of the war you got way more territory than what proportionally belongs to you, but we maintained the only recognized government. Isn't it also and even more so unfair that e.g. the people of Famagusta can see their town but they can't return to it. The RoC has done a lot for TCs, but RoCs goodwill is nor appreciated. Say for example you take your car and you come to the south to e.g. apply for passport, or go to a hospital which many TCs are entitled to. Your car was probably not imported legally in Cyprus, it didn't pass proper MOT inspection etc. Just by applying the law RoC could make it much more difficult for you. And then of course they could do to all TCs what they did to you and make it practically very difficult for anybody to get IDs, passports and everything else you are entitled.

erolz66 wrote:I believe the best route, possibly the only route, to convincing a majority of TC that the best future for them and their children is within a unitary Cypriot state without any special communal protections is to simply create a Cyprus that is so compelling 'better' or is clearly striving to be 'better' than not just the north or Turkey but any where in the world. Again this is not something that needs to be done by 'government' or the 'state' but is and can be down to individuals and the choices they have total control over. If since 74 the RoC had evolved in to a world example of it's fair treatment of immigrants and refugees and foreigners generally, a bastion of progressive policies on things like LGBT rights and equal rights for women a world leader in fighting against political corruption and nepotism and a world leader in the fight against police corruption or abuse, then the chances that a majority of TC would support a solution and future based on a unitary Cypriot state without any communal protections would be almost certain in my view.

This is why for me my hope for the future is not with groups like 'unite Cyprus now' (wedded as they currently are to the dead end of a BBF based solution) but actually in groups like Accept and KISA in the south (and their equivalents in the North as far as such exist at all in the north) despite them seemingly being nothing to do with the Cyprus issue directly. We need to create a Cyprus that TC , or at least a majority of them, WANT to be part of more than any other options. There is no route to a unitary solution without protections by trying to 'force' them to accept such by making the other options so onerous that even living in a unitary Cyprus as a second class Cypriot that faces habitual discrimination is better.


Personally I fully support the cause of Accept, KISA etc because I believe in human rights irrespective of the Cyprus problem. That said I don't think the views of the majority of TCs on the Cyprus problem is related to that. It is more about interests and power share, than anything else. Just look at how crappy Turkey is in its treatment of minorities and yet TCs don't seem to have any problem with that because they believe that Turkey serves their interests (and just to be clear I am not saying that is ONLY the TCs that only care about their own interests). But what you say is very valid for the small minority among TCs that want a truly united Cyprus. In that case I fully agree that if we don't respect the rights of weak minorities which have never harmed anybody, then we can't demand that our human rights be respected by others and we can't expect from TCs to trust us in a unitary state without special protections.

It is all well and fine talking about a (unitary) modern European Cypriot state that serves all Cypriots equally regardless of what kind of Cypriot they be and certainly easier to talk about such than ask how compatible my actions, my choices, my views, that I have total and absolute control over are with such an ideal. Again for me this forum is an example of how far from the 'reality' of such a state we are in practice. Take kurupetos for example. He is a blatant neo nazi racist. Yet he is treated here with at best indifference and at worst with bonhomie, almost never challenged when posting his neo nazi propaganda and often not just tolerated but even supported or excused by others simply because he is a GC neo nazi racist and not a TC one. This is not 'normal'. This is not compatible with the idea or notion of a modern unitary Cypriot state that treats all Cypriots fairly and equally and is something that is under the total control of those who contribute here. The day that he is called out for his extremist views, by a majority of Cypriot posters here across the ethnic divide of GC and TC as systematically as he posts his propaganda here is the day my belief that I would not face discrimination in a unitary Cypriot state without the need for any communal protections will increase massively. I am not holding my breath.


Kurupetos usually just throws one liners. I don't think he ever spent more than 1 minute writing a post and usually he is just trolling somebody. If he would spent more than a minute to write a post with actual arguments about why "Jews are evil" or explain his beliefs about gays etc, then I would respond if I saw his post and I found it at least slightly challenging.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Thu May 30, 2019 12:21 am

Maximus wrote:You are still not answering the question, try and be specific.


Try asking better questions perhaps ?

Maximus wrote:what do you or what does your side have to change to realize this democratic unitary state?


This is not about what communities have to do, it is about what individuals should do. Nor is it rocket science.

If you what you want to achieve is a unitary state without any exceptions then the simple way to do that is to have a majority of TC wanting this outcome as their preferred choice. So then you have to ask 'is this action, this reply , this behaviour, by me an individual that is totally under my control, more likely to make an 'average' TC able to believe that under such a unitary system they will not be unfairly discriminated against simply because they are a TC or less likely to make them able to believe that. That is it. Simples.

Maximus wrote:Then, you can give your opinion on;

What do the gc,s and the roc have to change, considering their position has always been a democratic unitary state since makarios’s proposed the 13 amendments?


Well again sticking to what you as an individual could try considering (I am not telling any one what to do , just suggesting what might be more likely to achieve the stated aim) is asking yourself is it more likely to reassure an 'average' TC that tomorrow under a unitary state without exceptions that they will not face unfair discrimination or less likely to do so, if you :-

a - keep trying to sell the same old soap that the RoC position since 63 was simply to seek a democratic unitary state that treated all Cypriots equally regardless of if they were a TC or GC and nothing else, without any reference to or acknowledgement of things like the ongoing pursuit of achieving enosis despite both the letter and spirit of the agreements signed in 60 and the constitution by any effective means legal or otherwise including with the use of Cypriot on Cypriot violence where consider effective, pursued not just by some 'fringe' minority of GC but by people at the heart of the then RoC government, people like Yorgardis, to give one example, that ultimately led to the Greek / GC coup d'etat of the the GC run government that in turn led to Turkey actions in 74.

b - stop trying to sell that old soap and acknowledge and recognise that the narrative that 'all GC governments and those within them since 63 onward had only tried to achieve a unitary Cypriot state that treated all Cypriots equally regardless of ethnic background' is actually not some kind of singular undeniable truth that can not be challenged in any way.

Which you chose to do, a or b is totally down to you and under your control. All you have to do, I suggest, is ask which approach, a or b, is more likely to reassure an 'average' TC that tomorrow under a unitary state without exceptions that they will not face unfair discrimination. It is your choice. I just suggest that if you are serious about achieving the goal of unitary Cypriot state, then choosing option b over option a is probably the better choice ?

Maximus wrote:The preferred outcome would be a unitary democratic state. This seems to be what you want now too.


What I want is for a majority of TC to chose to want to live in a unitary cypriot state. Again I suggest if that is also what you want , then considering if the things you have direct and absolute personal control , ie yourself, help or hinder the chances of a majority of TC choosing such, seems a pretty obvious approach to me. Like I say not rocket science really.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby repulsewarrior » Thu May 30, 2019 12:26 am

...it crossed my mind that Disy has been having talks with Akinci's Party. Though they were late for the EU elections, it would not surprise me if such an alliance will be formed, in adapting to AKEL's successful effort to get elected a Turkish Cypriot.

Thus, Turkish Cypriots have become an important electorate to the main stream Parties. The Parties themselves will change, exposing those who cannot. It may even drive the creation of Turkish Cypriot Parties, who will make the same effort to gain support from Greek Cypriots.

...three Capitols seems right for Nicosia, and in buildings adjoining and nearby, it is not hard to imagine such a state. A State and two Constituencies, providing to its electors the services they expect and pay for with taxes, they may economise with a unified bureaucracy. While the EU is at its advent, if it survives, Cypriots will want strong representation within it. A strong central government, in that regard, unitary, or federal, will provide that, as a sum many times greater than its parts. If the Constituencies have parts (as i have suggested having enclaves spotting the island's map pretty much as it is), within their National Assemblies, each Constituency will be a better representation of its diversity as a People, and as a majority demonstrate that they can provide for the special needs of minorities among them, as well.

If Mr. Niyazi draws attention by representing Cypriots well in their affairs, it will be even harder for "Turks" and "Greeks" to justify their toxic relationship. It will be easier for those who are silent (read: silenced) to demonstrate they care for a Cyprus unlike ''this''.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Thu May 30, 2019 12:30 pm

Sotos wrote: I already agreed that I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis and why they fought against it when they were given a chance. If I was a TC I would have done the same.


Indeed you have and the very fact that you have helps me as a TC believe that in a unitary Cyprus 'tomorrow' I will not be discriminated against just for being a TC and I thank you for that. The more GC that are wiling to state this the better as far as I am concerned.

Sotos wrote: That said, Cyprus being "independent" is not my top priority. If we freely choose to be part of something greater because this would serve our interests better and protect us from external threats then I think this is fine. Enosis is dead, but maybe in the future EU could evolve into a country, akin to the USA. I want the option for us to freely and democratically decide if we will be part of this or not, and both choices would be equally valid.


I do not want to get bogged down with this as its not really the point I am trying to make here. For me it all comes down to who is the 'we'. If the we includes some support (even a few %) from all communities then sure if 'we' chose to join a united states of Europe, no problem with me at all. The problem comes when support is totally from one community only and 99-100% opposed by another community. In such a scenario, then the 'legitimacy' that such a desire is a valid expression of the will of a unitary Cypriot people is undermined. It is easy to ignore this or deny this when you are in a community that in such a scenario will always get its will anyway because it is numerically larger. It is not so easy when you are not in such a community. If you imagine an entirely hypothetical scenario where we unify and over time TC breed like rabbits to a point where they become 52% of the population and then they decide to vote for enosis with Turkey and 100% of the GC community is opposed to this, would you really say 'no that desire is the valid will of a unitary Cypriot people and democracy is democracy, so join Turkey we will' ?

Sotos wrote:Things like "Barbarian Turk" and "fuck off back to Turkey" are just part of a "verbal fight" that are used to intentionally offend or as a response to an offence.


And the point I am trying to make is that every time a GC chooses to take such an approach, they make it harder for me to believe that I will not be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus just because I happen to be a TC.

Sotos wrote: My top priority is for my country to be a prosperous, democratic, peaceful place where the human rights of all people are respected.


And my point is the more you achieve this and or are seen to strive to achieve this then the easier it is for me to not fear discrimination in a unitary Cyprus and thus the chance that TC would choose to support such a solution increases.

Sotos wrote:OK, say your application went smoothly and there was no discrimination against you. Wouldn't you say: "they did it because they were required to do so"?


Absolutely I would. I do not 'praise' a government because it delivers equally to all citizens those things it's own laws say it should deliver. That is what should happen in a 'normal democratic modern EU state'. Yet in this case it is clearly not what is happening, so this idea that the RoC is already today a modern democratic state that protects and respects the rights of minorities equally along with all other citizens is undermined massively. Thus it is that much harder to believe and argue to other TC that they should believe we should have nothing to fear in a unitary Cyprus where we are merely and ethnic minority.

Sotos wrote:You shouldn't compare how you are treated now with how you would be treated in a united Cyprus. Now we are essentially in the cease fire or a war. As a result of the war you got way more territory than what proportionally belongs to you, but we maintained the only recognized government.


That the RoC government, today, can and does set laws and rules that state I am entitled to x but then puts any and all obstacles in my way if I try and claim what they say I am entitled to, for no other reason that I am TC and not GC, how can that not increase my fear that they might do the same in a unitary Cypriot state ? But again let me re emphasise what I am really talking about here is not the actions of the government per se but the reactions of 'ordinary GC' to such discrimination - this to me is key when I try and judge what the risk are to me in terms of discrimination I might suffer in a united Cyprus because I am TC. Any time and every time a GC condemns such discriminatory behaviour , unreservedly that helps me believe I will not face discrimination in united Cyprus. Any time a GC tries to find an 'excuse' as to why actually it is ok for the government to discriminate illegally against its own laws and constitution against TC, then that increases my fear that this might also be how I am treated in a unitary Cyprus and there will not be many other Cypriots that are not TC who will care.

Sotos wrote: Isn't it also and even more so unfair that e.g. the people of Famagusta can see their town but they can't return to it.


Of course the injustice suffered by those who lost everything in 74 is a far greater and a bigger one that me being discriminated against in terms of getting the RoC passports the laws of the RoC say I am entitled to. This however just sounds like another 'excuse' to me for why actually it is, in your view, ok that the RoC discriminates against me today simply because I am a TC. Why should I not fear than in a unitary Cyprus , in the face of discrimination against me, that the 'same' logic will be used along the lines of 'sure you might suffer some degree of discrimination by the RoC state but that is nothing compared to the suffering the GC experienced in 74, so stop whining and suck it up' ?

Sotos wrote:The RoC has done a lot for TCs, but RoCs goodwill is nor appreciated. Say for example you take your car and you come to the south to e.g. apply for passport, or go to a hospital which many TCs are entitled to. Your car was probably not imported legally in Cyprus, it didn't pass proper MOT inspection etc. Just by applying the law RoC could make it much more difficult for you. And then of course they could do to all TCs what they did to you and make it practically very difficult for anybody to get IDs, passports and everything else you are entitled.


We could argue about what the RoC government has done and why it does it but really again this is not the point I am trying to get across here. The point I am trying to get across is how individuals choose to behave has , for me, a real and direct impact on how easy or hard it is for me to believe I would not be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus just for being TC. I just want those who claim to want a unitary Cypriot state to understand how their actions and choices actually do impact on how likely it is we could achieve such a unitary state or not.

Sotos wrote:Personally I fully support the cause of Accept, KISA etc because I believe in human rights irrespective of the Cyprus problem. That said I don't think the views of the majority of TCs on the Cyprus problem is related to that.


I can not speak for a majority of TC only for myself as a TC and in my case I can say absolutely that how the RoC 'scores' on issues like these is directly connected to how likely I think it is that in a unitary scenario I will or will not be discriminated against for no other reason that I am TC.

Sotos wrote: It is more about interests and power share, than anything else.


For politicians maybe but I am concerned about the people first and foremost. I can will and in fact have 'argued' with my fellow TC that what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario. I would like to be able to argue, with real compelling evidence, that actually we could be better off in a unitary Cyprus, without bi zonality, without bi communality or the need for any special protections. If I can say - look the RoC treats these minorities well and without discrimination, so how real are our fears that they would not treat us, as a minority, the same. That is the 'connection' between things like Accept and Kisa and the 'cyprus problem'.

Sotos wrote: Just look at how crappy Turkey is in its treatment of minorities and yet TCs don't seem to have any problem with that because they believe that Turkey serves their interests (and just to be clear I am not saying that is ONLY the TCs that only care about their own interests).


Actually many TC do 'fear', I think, the north becoming a region of mainland Turkey exactly because of how Turkey behaves towards its own minorities. Many TC fear 'erdogan' as much as any one else but our options in the position we are in are very limited. In many ways the worse Turkey is in it's treatments of minorities vs the RoC , the easier it is to argue that actually a unitary solution in Cyprus is the best option for TC. For 50 years or more the narrative has been about 'power share' and we have got so used to that that we no longer ask 'why' do we think such things are necessary. We need to break out of that and start again , asking the why. That is what I am trying to do, stating 'internally' first and then looking to externalise such questions secondarily.

Sotos wrote: But what you say is very valid for the small minority among TCs that want a truly united Cyprus. In that case I fully agree that if we don't respect the rights of weak minorities which have never harmed anybody, then we can't demand that our human rights be respected by others and we can't expect from TCs to trust us in a unitary state without special protections.


I have no idea how many TC this kind of stuff matters too. I do know for me it is crucial and certainly for any arguments I might then try and use to convince other TC it is crucial.

Sotos wrote:Kurupetos usually just throws one liners. I don't think he ever spent more than 1 minute writing a post and usually he is just trolling somebody. If he would spent more than a minute to write a post with actual arguments about why "Jews are evil" or explain his beliefs about gays etc, then I would respond if I saw his post and I found it at least slightly challenging.


My point about Kurupetos, is that it is indicative of how 'not normal' the situation in Cyprus is. It is all well and fine Maximus telling me the RoC is today already a normal modern democratic state that fully respects the rights of minorities and thus TC should have no fears about being treated unfairly in a unitary Cyprus. Yet as far as this forum is indicative of the general attitude of Cypriots in the south, then the example of how Kurupetos is received and treated here is at odds with the claim 'the RoC is already a modern democratic state that respects minorities and is intolerant of discrimination based on race and ethnicity'. This is not CyprusELAM-forum. It is just the Cyprus forum. To me the idea that on say 'holland-forum.com' such an overt and blatant racist would be treated and tolerated in the way kurupetos is here is to me inconceivable. This all comes to the same 'be the change you want to see'. If you want a Cyprus that is intolerant of racist neo nazis, such that it is easy for TC to not fear discrimination as just a minority in Cyprus, then perhaps not tolerating racist neo nazis yourself is a good place to start ?

and just to address this whole thing of 'why am I telling GC here this stuff, why am I not telling these things to TC', I am telling them to all Cypriots. Just one example from over a year ago for example

https://www.facebook.com/esra.yalgin/po ... 1015584467
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Re: eu vote results

Postby MR-from-NG » Thu May 30, 2019 1:52 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Sotos wrote: I already agreed that I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis and why they fought against it when they were given a chance. If I was a TC I would have done the same.


Indeed you have and the very fact that you have helps me as a TC believe that in a unitary Cyprus 'tomorrow' I will not be discriminated against just for being a TC and I thank you for that. The more GC that are wiling to state this the better as far as I am concerned.

Sotos wrote: That said, Cyprus being "independent" is not my top priority. If we freely choose to be part of something greater because this would serve our interests better and protect us from external threats then I think this is fine. Enosis is dead, but maybe in the future EU could evolve into a country, akin to the USA. I want the option for us to freely and democratically decide if we will be part of this or not, and both choices would be equally valid.


I do not want to get bogged down with this as its not really the point I am trying to make here. For me it all comes down to who is the 'we'. If the we includes some support (even a few %) from all communities then sure if 'we' chose to join a united states of Europe, no problem with me at all. The problem comes when support is totally from one community only and 99-100% opposed by another community. In such a scenario, then the 'legitimacy' that such a desire is a valid expression of the will of a unitary Cypriot people is undermined. It is easy to ignore this or deny this when you are in a community that in such a scenario will always get its will anyway because it is numerically larger. It is not so easy when you are not in such a community. If you imagine an entirely hypothetical scenario where we unify and over time TC breed like rabbits to a point where they become 52% of the population and then they decide to vote for enosis with Turkey and 100% of the GC community is opposed to this, would you really say 'no that desire is the valid will of a unitary Cypriot people and democracy is democracy, so join Turkey we will' ?

Sotos wrote:Things like "Barbarian Turk" and "fuck off back to Turkey" are just part of a "verbal fight" that are used to intentionally offend or as a response to an offence.


And the point I am trying to make is that every time a GC chooses to take such an approach, they make it harder for me to believe that I will not be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus just because I happen to be a TC.

Sotos wrote: My top priority is for my country to be a prosperous, democratic, peaceful place where the human rights of all people are respected.


And my point is the more you achieve this and or are seen to strive to achieve this then the easier it is for me to not fear discrimination in a unitary Cyprus and thus the chance that TC would choose to support such a solution increases.

Sotos wrote:OK, say your application went smoothly and there was no discrimination against you. Wouldn't you say: "they did it because they were required to do so"?


Absolutely I would. I do not 'praise' a government because it delivers equally to all citizens those things it's own laws say it should deliver. That is what should happen in a 'normal democratic modern EU state'. Yet in this case it is clearly not what is happening, so this idea that the RoC is already today a modern democratic state that protects and respects the rights of minorities equally along with all other citizens is undermined massively. Thus it is that much harder to believe and argue to other TC that they should believe we should have nothing to fear in a unitary Cyprus where we are merely and ethnic minority.

Sotos wrote:You shouldn't compare how you are treated now with how you would be treated in a united Cyprus. Now we are essentially in the cease fire or a war. As a result of the war you got way more territory than what proportionally belongs to you, but we maintained the only recognized government.


That the RoC government, today, can and does set laws and rules that state I am entitled to x but then puts any and all obstacles in my way if I try and claim what they say I am entitled to, for no other reason that I am TC and not GC, how can that not increase my fear that they might do the same in a unitary Cypriot state ? But again let me re emphasise what I am really talking about here is not the actions of the government per se but the reactions of 'ordinary GC' to such discrimination - this to me is key when I try and judge what the risk are to me in terms of discrimination I might suffer in a united Cyprus because I am TC. Any time and every time a GC condemns such discriminatory behaviour , unreservedly that helps me believe I will not face discrimination in united Cyprus. Any time a GC tries to find an 'excuse' as to why actually it is ok for the government to discriminate illegally against its own laws and constitution against TC, then that increases my fear that this might also be how I am treated in a unitary Cyprus and there will not be many other Cypriots that are not TC who will care.

Sotos wrote: Isn't it also and even more so unfair that e.g. the people of Famagusta can see their town but they can't return to it.


Of course the injustice suffered by those who lost everything in 74 is a far greater and a bigger one that me being discriminated against in terms of getting the RoC passports the laws of the RoC say I am entitled to. This however just sounds like another 'excuse' to me for why actually it is, in your view, ok that the RoC discriminates against me today simply because I am a TC. Why should I not fear than in a unitary Cyprus , in the face of discrimination against me, that the 'same' logic will be used along the lines of 'sure you might suffer some degree of discrimination by the RoC state but that is nothing compared to the suffering the GC experienced in 74, so stop whining and suck it up' ?

Sotos wrote:The RoC has done a lot for TCs, but RoCs goodwill is nor appreciated. Say for example you take your car and you come to the south to e.g. apply for passport, or go to a hospital which many TCs are entitled to. Your car was probably not imported legally in Cyprus, it didn't pass proper MOT inspection etc. Just by applying the law RoC could make it much more difficult for you. And then of course they could do to all TCs what they did to you and make it practically very difficult for anybody to get IDs, passports and everything else you are entitled.


We could argue about what the RoC government has done and why it does it but really again this is not the point I am trying to get across here. The point I am trying to get across is how individuals choose to behave has , for me, a real and direct impact on how easy or hard it is for me to believe I would not be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus just for being TC. I just want those who claim to want a unitary Cypriot state to understand how their actions and choices actually do impact on how likely it is we could achieve such a unitary state or not.

Sotos wrote:Personally I fully support the cause of Accept, KISA etc because I believe in human rights irrespective of the Cyprus problem. That said I don't think the views of the majority of TCs on the Cyprus problem is related to that.


I can not speak for a majority of TC only for myself as a TC and in my case I can say absolutely that how the RoC 'scores' on issues like these is directly connected to how likely I think it is that in a unitary scenario I will or will not be discriminated against for no other reason that I am TC.

Sotos wrote: It is more about interests and power share, than anything else.


For politicians maybe but I am concerned about the people first and foremost. I can will and in fact have 'argued' with my fellow TC that what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario. I would like to be able to argue, with real compelling evidence, that actually we could be better off in a unitary Cyprus, without bi zonality, without bi communality or the need for any special protections. If I can say - look the RoC treats these minorities well and without discrimination, so how real are our fears that they would not treat us, as a minority, the same. That is the 'connection' between things like Accept and Kisa and the 'cyprus problem'.

Sotos wrote: Just look at how crappy Turkey is in its treatment of minorities and yet TCs don't seem to have any problem with that because they believe that Turkey serves their interests (and just to be clear I am not saying that is ONLY the TCs that only care about their own interests).


Actually many TC do 'fear', I think, the north becoming a region of mainland Turkey exactly because of how Turkey behaves towards its own minorities. Many TC fear 'erdogan' as much as any one else but our options in the position we are in are very limited. In many ways the worse Turkey is in it's treatments of minorities vs the RoC , the easier it is to argue that actually a unitary solution in Cyprus is the best option for TC. For 50 years or more the narrative has been about 'power share' and we have got so used to that that we no longer ask 'why' do we think such things are necessary. We need to break out of that and start again , asking the why. That is what I am trying to do, stating 'internally' first and then looking to externalise such questions secondarily.

Sotos wrote: But what you say is very valid for the small minority among TCs that want a truly united Cyprus. In that case I fully agree that if we don't respect the rights of weak minorities which have never harmed anybody, then we can't demand that our human rights be respected by others and we can't expect from TCs to trust us in a unitary state without special protections.


I have no idea how many TC this kind of stuff matters too. I do know for me it is crucial and certainly for any arguments I might then try and use to convince other TC it is crucial.

Sotos wrote:Kurupetos usually just throws one liners. I don't think he ever spent more than 1 minute writing a post and usually he is just trolling somebody. If he would spent more than a minute to write a post with actual arguments about why "Jews are evil" or explain his beliefs about gays etc, then I would respond if I saw his post and I found it at least slightly challenging.


My point about Kurupetos, is that it is indicative of how 'not normal' the situation in Cyprus is. It is all well and fine Maximus telling me the RoC is today already a normal modern democratic state that fully respects the rights of minorities and thus TC should have no fears about being treated unfairly in a unitary Cyprus. Yet as far as this forum is indicative of the general attitude of Cypriots in the south, then the example of how Kurupetos is received and treated here is at odds with the claim 'the RoC is already a modern democratic state that respects minorities and is intolerant of discrimination based on race and ethnicity'. This is not CyprusELAM-forum. It is just the Cyprus forum. To me the idea that on say 'holland-forum.com' such an overt and blatant racist would be treated and tolerated in the way kurupetos is here is to me inconceivable. This all comes to the same 'be the change you want to see'. If you want a Cyprus that is intolerant of racist neo nazis, such that it is easy for TC to not fear discrimination as just a minority in Cyprus, then perhaps not tolerating racist neo nazis yourself is a good place to start ?

and just to address this whole thing of 'why am I telling GC here this stuff, why am I not telling these things to TC', I am telling them to all Cypriots. Just one example from over a year ago for example

https://www.facebook.com/esra.yalgin/po ... 1015584467

Nice of you to make an appearance Erol. You always have positive things to contribute on the forum. I'd like to say Sotos has become a much better person in recent times. I remember referring to him as the village idiot and for that I'd like to unreservedly apologise now. I haven't got the time to look for his past posts but they were as I remember racist and anti TC to the extreme. I find this as a positive progress in TC GC relationship. Thank you Sotos.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Maximus » Thu May 30, 2019 3:48 pm

There are fascists and racists of greater proportions (some might argue) in the TC community that discriminate against GC's.

The discrimination against GC can be proven on many fronts. Unfortunately, this stems from the TC's political ideology and from their "government" and politicians. They are after all illegitimate and go about their 'business' regarding the GC's in an unlawful manner. Discrimination against GC's is the TC's and their "governments" policy. Comparing the policy of the RoC to the TC's and the TC's policy to the GC's is like comparing night and day.

100's of years of mal-aligned political ideology and oppression, a desire to be separate, theft of property and threats from Turkey, endorsed, implied or without rebuke from your community has done that.

If you want to talk about being treated fairly in a united Cyprus and not be discriminated against then you also have to look and talk about what you or your community have done and are doing to attract it.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, there are still a majority in the TC community that have an agenda against GC's that may attract 'hate' and discrimination to them. Lets go there with the settlers too. Their hatred runs deep for no apparent reason other than they don't want the island to reunite, less they lose property they they should never have got involved with in the first place. The same can also probably be said for TC's, less they loss illegitimate and discriminatory "rights" against the other.

This perceived or real discrimination, justified or unjustified, just is because of what the TC's have done and continue to do.

When you remove such discriminating agendas and policies, then you also remove the potential for equal and opposite discrimination coming back to you like a boomerang. To a greater or lesser extent.

I hope this registers and makes sense.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Sotos » Thu May 30, 2019 11:59 pm

erolz66 wrote:I do not want to get bogged down with this as its not really the point I am trying to make here. For me it all comes down to who is the 'we'. If the we includes some support (even a few %) from all communities then sure if 'we' chose to join a united states of Europe, no problem with me at all. The problem comes when support is totally from one community only and 99-100% opposed by another community. In such a scenario, then the 'legitimacy' that such a desire is a valid expression of the will of a unitary Cypriot people is undermined. It is easy to ignore this or deny this when you are in a community that in such a scenario will always get its will anyway because it is numerically larger. It is not so easy when you are not in such a community. If you imagine an entirely hypothetical scenario where we unify and over time TC breed like rabbits to a point where they become 52% of the population and then they decide to vote for enosis with Turkey and 100% of the GC community is opposed to this, would you really say 'no that desire is the valid will of a unitary Cypriot people and democracy is democracy, so join Turkey we will' ?


What you say is fine by me if you are asking for this for the TCs as a "safeguard" to agreeing to a solution. But if we are talking in general, about an "ideal democracy" in any country, then it gets more complicated. Why for example should the grouping be done just by ethnicity? There are many different ways to group people of a country. Maybe there is a situation where the majority wants something, but which is rejected by the 99% of homosexuals / men / people with disabilities / lower class / higher class etc. To say "nearly nobody in my group supports this decision, so it is illegitimate" I don't think it really stands from a legal point of view, and countries do not group their citizens in any way when they vote, apart from by location. So if there is an issue with the way that democracies function then the solution goes well beyond just ethnic groups and it is not just a Cyprus issue.

And the point I am trying to make is that every time a GC chooses to take such an approach, they make it harder for me to believe that I will not be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus just because I happen to be a TC.

I think you are over-reacting. Even best friends and family members can fight and say nasty things to each other. Obviously it would better if such things were never said, but considering the situation we are in it is the least of our problems. When the cause of those feelings cease to exist then behavior will change accordingly.

For politicians maybe but I am concerned about the people first and foremost. I can will and in fact have 'argued' with my fellow TC that what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario. I would like to be able to argue, with real compelling evidence, that actually we could be better off in a unitary Cyprus, without bi zonality, without bi communality or the need for any special protections. If I can say - look the RoC treats these minorities well and without discrimination, so how real are our fears that they would not treat us, as a minority, the same. That is the 'connection' between things like Accept and Kisa and the 'cyprus problem'.


Ok, I will not quote you on every paragraph because this would get really long! I quoted the one above because I think this touches the root of our disagreement, and everything else stems from there.

I disagree that interests and power share is something that only politicians are interested in. The people elect the politicians. People care about their interests above all else, and more power to the groups they belong means better means to serve those interests. When you say "what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario", isn't this about interests? "Bad" is better than "Worst". "Good" isn't as good as "Even better". So for TCs is not just about how good/bad RoC is, but also how good/bad the alternative is.

So lets compare a theoretical "perfect RoC" with what TCs likely consider as the most possible alternatives:

1. Perfect RoC unitary solution VS Perfect RoC in the south only + unrecognized "trnc" in the north:
If TCs can have nearly all the benefits as citizens of a "Perfect RoC" without any obstacles, but then they can also keep 37% of Cyprus just for themselves and have less liabilities toward RoC, then possibly keeping "trnc" has more benefits than costs.

2. Perfect RoC unitary solution VS Perfect "trnc" partition solution.
Many TCs believe that partition is possible. That they just need to wait a bit longer for everything else to fail, then probably just give Varosha back and be recognized. A perfect RoC might be good, but a perfect "trnc" would be even better for them. I don't think you can argue with them that GCs can create a perfect country, but TCs are incapable of doing the same.

3. Perfect RoC unitary solution VS Perfect (for TCs) RoC BBF solution
If RoC unitary is perfect, then RoC BBF would be even "perfecter" for TCs. Why choose the first, if they can instead take the second?

So we should definitely make RoC better regardless of the Cyprus problem, but making RoC better on its own is not enough to bring a solution, the other side of the equation needs to be something obviously worst. Arguing with your fellow TCs about the benefits of unitary state will have no result no matter how good RoC is, if they think they can have something even better.

If you want a Cyprus that is intolerant of racist neo nazis, such that it is easy for TC to not fear discrimination as just a minority in Cyprus, then perhaps not tolerating racist neo nazis yourself is a good place to start ?


"Not tolerating" in what way? Am I supposed to respond to every one liner thrown by Kurupetos? The rise of far-right is a general problem in Europe. In some countries they are part of the government, let alone a forum. I would gladly argue with them on the actual issues, but none of the ones we have here is interested to engage in any kind of discussion. In other places (in Greek) I have done so on several occasions.

What helps ELAM is other things, but that is whole another discussion (and I don't want to make another huge post!)
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Re: eu vote results

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri May 31, 2019 12:25 am

...the third direction is the Cypriot way. Turks and Greeks, opposed to those who stigmatise those not "them" as worthy of only hate.

It is the conviction to end "this" that must be demonstrated by the people who seek this change; not "Greeks", not "Turks". Dialog, solidarity, a recognition among all Cypriots, that they are after all, all Cypriots, that they will no longer accept to be unheard as though such a body does not (yet) exist, acting collectively, with conviction despite the threats and coercion they will risk by doing so. That by acting lovingly toward each other, buying locally, patronising Cypriot owned and operated businesses, traveling to the occupied north (or vice versa) specifically to do so, flying a Cypriot Flag while driving, hanging this Flag in shop windows, indoors and outdoors, signs in both languages (and English/other languages) to sell wares, is direct action. Thus without the political class, or the elites (with which they serve their own interests first), enough Flags, and signs, and social-economy, will drive even them/"them" to adapt to this changing condition, or be excluded.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby kurupetos » Fri May 31, 2019 10:56 am

Sotos wrote:Kurupetos usually just throws one liners. I don't think he ever spent more than 1 minute writing a post and usually he is just trolling somebody. If he would spent more than a minute to write a post with actual arguments about why "Jews are evil" or explain his beliefs about gays etc, then I would respond if I saw his post and I found it at least slightly challenging.


You are right, Sotos. I have better things to do with my life. Programming WMD is not easy. :lol:
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Lordo » Fri May 31, 2019 1:55 pm

xerodjehalo tell him the real reason why you don't type long.

1. you have 6 fingers on each hand which is very confusing which ones to use for which letters
2. you have webbed fingers whuch makes it doubly difficult to type one individual letter.
3. ise delya shillarosmenos.

tell poor swine your problems so he can understand your predicament. gavole
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