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eu vote results

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Re: eu vote results

Postby kurupetos » Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:09 pm

Lordo wrote:xerodjehalo tell him the real reason why you don't type long.

1. you have 6 fingers on each hand which is very confusing which ones to use for which letters
2. you have webbed fingers whuch makes it doubly difficult to type one individual letter.
3. ise delya shillarosmenos.

tell poor swine your problems so he can understand your predicament. gavole

I would rather kick your ass, but you have to wash it first, because I cannot stand the odor. :roll:
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:21 pm

Maximus wrote:This perceived or real discrimination, justified or unjustified, just is because of what the TC's have done and continue to do.

When you remove such discriminating agendas and policies, then you also remove the potential for equal and opposite discrimination coming back to you like a boomerang. To a greater or lesser extent.

I hope this registers and makes sense.


I want a Cyprus where it really makes no difference if you are a GC, TC or any other kind of Cypriot. That is the change I want and thus that is how I behave. If you want a Cyprus where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are then perhaps you should start trying to not care what sort of Cypriot I or any other Cypriot may be. Be that change you want to see.

A modern democrat EU state does not blatantly discriminate against it's own citizens and against it's own laws and constitution based on ethnicity. full stop. That is it. No caveats, no excpetions, no excuses. You talk the talk but you, as an individual, in total control of yourself, simply fail to walk the walk. Now if you want to change the law and constitution such that I am not entitled to a passport, then ok, that could be argued as being compatible with the idea of the RoC being a modern democratic EU state. Otherwise there really is no way such action by the RoC can be compatible with the idea of Cyprus being a modern democratic EU state. Nor does a modern democratic EU state seek to visit the sins of the father on the sons, grandsons and great grand sons.

Here I am, a TC, willing to accept and argue for a solution based on everything you claim your side wants - no partition, no bi zonality, no bi communality, no special exceptions. Yet from where I am sitting and as far as I understand you, this still is not enough for you. I also need to accept your partial and one sided narrative as well, accept that the whole thing was caused by TC and GC did nothing except behave honourably and legally at all times in the spirit and desire to achieve a unitary Cypriot nation that treated all Cypriots equally. If that is what you want , then I am afraid you can just go sing for another 50 years. I do not support a solution based on a unitary Cypriot state because I accept your partial, biased and one sided narrative. I do so as Cypriot who believes that it is the best way forward for all Cypriots that is most compatible with a goal of a Cyprus where it just does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are. I am finally (and it took me personally about 16 years of living in Cyprus to reach this stage) ready to leave the past in the past and look to the future. Are you ? Or are you still just seeking 'victory' for your side - an approach that has got us no where for over 60 years now ? It seems pretty clear to me what the answer to that question is in your case but I am always willing to reconsider my 'position' in light of new evidence or further consideration.

Fortunately I do not gauge how GC in general think and behave just from this forum. If I did then despite what I think is the best and right solution I would have to accept that achieving such a solution is simply not possible in the current climate. I still support and argue for such a solution because I believe there are enough (or 35%) GC that do not think and behave as you appear to do here and who are willing and can and will, themselves, be the change they want to see. Who would stand with me as a fellow Cypriot against discrimination from other Cypriots or the Cypriot state. Now under the current status quo and in any future scenario, including a unitary state.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Lordo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:31 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Maximus wrote:This perceived or real discrimination, justified or unjustified, just is because of what the TC's have done and continue to do.

When you remove such discriminating agendas and policies, then you also remove the potential for equal and opposite discrimination coming back to you like a boomerang. To a greater or lesser extent.

I hope this registers and makes sense.


I want a Cyprus where it really makes no difference if you are a GC, TC or any other kind of Cypriot. That is the change I want and thus that is how I behave. If you want a Cyprus where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are then perhaps you should start trying to not care what sort of Cypriot I or any other Cypriot may be. Be that change you want to see.

A modern democrat EU state does not blatantly discriminate against it's own citizens and against it's own laws and constitution based on ethnicity. full stop. That is it. No caveats, no excpetions, no excuses. You talk the talk but you, as an individual, in total control of yourself, simply fail to walk the walk. Now if you want to change the law and constitution such that I am not entitled to a passport, then ok, that could be argued as being compatible with the idea of the RoC being a modern democratic EU state. Otherwise there really is no way such action by the RoC can be compatible with the idea of Cyprus being a modern democratic EU state. Nor does a modern democratic EU state seek to visit the sins of the father on the sons, grandsons and great grand sons.

Here I am, a TC, willing to accept and argue for a solution based on everything you claim your side wants - no partition, no bi zonality, no bi communality, no special exceptions. Yet from where I am sitting and as far as I understand you, this still is not enough for you. I also need to accept your partial and one sided narrative as well, accept that the whole thing was caused by TC and GC did nothing except behave honourably and legally at all times in the spirit and desire to achieve a unitary Cypriot nation that treated all Cypriots equally. If that is what you want , then I am afraid you can just go sing for another 50 years. I do not support a solution based on a unitary Cypriot state because I accept your partial, biased and one sided narrative. I do so as Cypriot who believes that it is the best way forward for all Cypriots that is most compatible with a goal of a Cyprus where it just does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are. I am finally (and it took me personally about 16 years of living in Cyprus to reach this stage) ready to leave the past in the past and look to the future. Are you ? Or are you still just seeking 'victory' for your side - an approach that has got us no where for over 60 years now ? It seems pretty clear to me what the answer to that question is in your case but I am always willing to reconsider my 'position' in light of new evidence or further consideration.

Fortunately I do not gauge how GC in general think and behave just from this forum. If I did then despite what I think is the best and right solution I would have to accept that achieving such a solution is simply not possible in the current climate. I still support and argue for such a solution because I believe there are enough (or 35%) GC that do not think and behave as you appear to do here and who are willing and can and will, themselves, be the change they want to see. Who would stand with me as a fellow Cypriot against discrimination from other Cypriots or the Cypriot state. Now under the current status quo and in any future scenario, including a unitary state.

you have hit the nail on the head. if gcs first of all accept all their responsibilities about the past like
1. they never wanted independence
2. all their effort in the 60swas to remove the veto from the tcs so they can have enosis
3 that their police and their ministers took part in murder of innocent civilians
4 they forced tcs in to enclaves and set up road block when at one time not even baby milk was allowed in certain areas

we would not need any other system but how can you trust these swines to behave. no chance. they will have to earn respect by showing not only do they repent the past but they will put in place systems that will not tolerate such behaviour.

then we are ready for a unitary state.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:33 pm

Sotos wrote:What you say is fine by me if you are asking for this for the TCs as a "safeguard" to agreeing to a solution. But if we are talking in general, about an "ideal democracy" in any country, then it gets more complicated. Why for example should the grouping be done just by ethnicity? There are many different ways to group people of a country. Maybe there is a situation where the majority wants something, but which is rejected by the 99% of homosexuals / men / people with disabilities / lower class / higher class etc. To say "nearly nobody in my group supports this decision, so it is illegitimate" I don't think it really stands from a legal point of view, and countries do not group their citizens in any way when they vote, apart from by location. So if there is an issue with the way that democracies function then the solution goes well beyond just ethnic groups and it is not just a Cyprus issue.


As I said I did not want to get bog down on this but the simple answer to your question is that no body has yet defined a 'people' on the basis of sexual orientation, gender, disability or class. The 'world' may yet move that way and faster than we might think but we are not there yet. There is a reason why the right to self determination is applied to 'peoples' (not nations, not states and not geographical areas - they are just shortcuts of convenience) and it is really not that hard to understand if you actually think, objectively, what the 'ideals' behind the right to self determination of 'peoples'. https://www.diakonia.se/en/IHL/The-Law/ ... rmination/ are about This is not a simple subject and examples of where the 'ideal' has failed and led strife and violence and calamity are legion. We just need to decide do we want Cyprus to continue to be just one more example of this kind of failure or do we want to try and be a global exemplar and inspiration of how 'peoples' can find a way past the calamity to a better place and future.

In any case in a modern democratic progressive EU state, I think any time a minority 'group' any 'group' is 100 or 99% opposed to something, then it should be a big warning flag, if the majority support for whatever it is this group is opposed to is entirely from people outside that group.

Sotos wrote:I think you are over-reacting. Even best friends and family members can fight and say nasty things to each other. Obviously it would better if such things were never said, but considering the situation we are in it is the least of our problems. When the cause of those feelings cease to exist then behavior will change accordingly.


In places like this, the denigration of one kind of Cypriot by a different kind of Cypriot, for no reason other than they are from a different ethnic group, is the overriding reality. It has been the over ridding reality for the 15 years plus I have viewed this forum. We have to change this if we want wider change and that change starts with ourselves.

Sotos wrote:I disagree that interests and power share is something that only politicians are interested in. The people elect the politicians. People care about their interests above all else, and more power to the groups they belong means better means to serve those interests. When you say "what matters is how worse or better off we are in a given scenario", isn't this about interests? "Bad" is better than "Worst". "Good" isn't as good as "Even better". So for TCs is not just about how good/bad RoC is, but also how good/bad the alternative is.


No I think this is the 'trap' we have driven ourselves in to and what we have to break out of. What matters and what should matter to 'ordinary' people is can they live their lives in peace, in safety, free from discrimination. After that and in comparative terms, what should matter is what are my and my children's prospects in one scenario or the other. What are my job prospects, what are the education opportunities for me and mine, what 'rights' and 'responsibilities' will I have, not just in theory but in practice as well. We have and TC probably more than others become 'wedded' to 'truisms' that have been repeated so often with such force and regularity, than even after 50 years of failure we still remain unable to question them. Ideas like, on the part of TC, that we were, are and always must be 'communally' equal founders and partners in a Cypriot state. This is just one example and one from my side but there are countless other examples and these are the things I think we, as individuals, in full control and able to change ourselves, must strive to question and break down if we want to stop repeating the failures to date.

I think a compelling argument can be made that for an average TC and their families and future generations, living in a unitary Cypriot state as a minority, where they will be safe and free from discrimination and persecution just because they are of an ethnic minority, is the best option for them and better than any alternatives. How compelling the argument is is directly related to how credible it is that as a minority in a unitary Cypriot state we will not suffer unfair, unjust, ethnic based discrimination or that if we do there are enough Cypriots that will stand with us, simply as Cypriots, against such things.

Sotos wrote:So lets compare a theoretical "perfect RoC" with what TCs likely consider as the most possible alternatives:


Your approach following this seems to me to suffer the same problem than most economic theories suffer in relation to the idea of 'perfect rationality' of units (people). Life is more subtle and complex than such theories allow for and thus will always be limited in their use.

For me there can be no more 'perfect' a Cyprus than one where it really does not matter what kind of Cypriot you are. Thus all you scenarios that involve some form of differentiation based on kind of Cypriot, are by definition not 'perfect'.

Sotos wrote:
"Not tolerating" in what way? Am I supposed to respond to every one liner thrown by Kurupetos?


No I am, not suggesting you should respond to every 'one liner' from him. What I am suggesting however is that you can make a personal choice as to if you will 'engage' or not with him here on subjects like 'google phones in Cyprus' and other such non controversial subjects, as if he is just a 'normal' member here who is not constantly pushing fascist, racist and anti Semitic agendas. This is a choice you can make, entirely under your own control and I would suggest, with respect, that choosing to not engage with him on such things, to not 'normalise' his presence here is more compatible with wanting a modern democratic progressive Cypriot state. Be the change you want to see ?

Now do not get me wrong, I know many other Cypriots including members of my own family, that in 'private' and 'one to one' have expressed the most shocking racism and anti antisemitism and more often than not I just ignore it, especially when it is 'elder' members of my own family. However that for me is not that same as doing so with a total stranger on a forum like this, that is constantly pushing their racist, fascist agenda with their one liners.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Maximus » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:37 pm

You lost me completely.

With respect, you are talking BS.

Be the change you want to see in the world. This is your motto but you are still focused on the other.

You still havent given a satisfactory answer about what you or your side has to change to see this unitary democratic state either.

Let me give you a clue Erolz.

Your side needs to drop its apartheid demands on the majority.

it needs to return a lot of usurped and stolen property,

it has to remove settlers and Turkish troops from the island.

Turkey has to stop making threats and incursions in CY's EEZ.

Your side needs to dismantle the "TRNC".

What are you going to do to change that?

You are talking bollox, which is tantamount to blaming the other for Turkeys illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing of Cyprus and your sides attempts to implement an apartheid.

He wants a democratic state imish, when this has been and is the RoC;s official negotiating position and was the point of Makarios's 13 amendments in 1963. BUT the TC's fight and oppose it, to this day. FFS......
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Re: eu vote results

Postby B25 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:51 pm

Amen to that Maxi.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:53 pm

MR-from-NG wrote: Nice of you to make an appearance Erol.


And likewise nice to see you post as well.

MR-from-NG wrote:You always have positive things to contribute on the forum. I'd like to say Sotos has become a much better person in recent times. I remember referring to him as the village idiot and for that I'd like to unreservedly apologise now. I haven't got the time to look for his past posts but they were as I remember racist and anti TC to the extreme. I find this as a positive progress in TC GC relationship. Thank you Sotos.


I am always wary of judging people when all I know of them and them of me is online text based communication. I have been and remain of the view that forums like these , when used in conjunction with real world face to face interaction are always more useful and valuable than without it. I would happily welcome the chance to meet Sotos in person for example. I think there is much we would find common interest and even ground on. Having said that I have always found Sotos one of the contributors here I could rationally argue and discuss things in a civil manner despite many things we have disagreed about. I also sense (again with the caveat of not really ever having know him) a degree of 'journey' and 'progression' and 'change' from Sotos over the years that I think mirrors to a degree my own 'journey' and 'change over time'. Change is good, especially when the status quo is so not good. As a youngster in my early 20's I used to joke about setting up a political party (in the UK) with the slogan 'change for change's sake' :) It is those here, that over the 15 years or so I have been here, seemed to have not change one iota or to be willing or able to change that concern me more. You want change, then you need to change, yourself. It really is that simple (as well as complex) for me.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:05 pm

Lordo wrote:we would not need any other system but how can you trust these swines to behave. no chance. they will have to earn respect by showing not only do they repent the past but they will put in place systems that will not tolerate such behaviour.

then we are ready for a unitary state.


I understand where you are coming from but I reject the approach. I am impatient. Nor do I require that all GC be committed to a unitary Cyprus where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot such that they would stand with me simply as a Cypriot against oppression, persecution or discrimination of one kind of Cypriot against another kind of Cypriot. I do not require a majority of GC to be this way. I simply need to believe that 35% or more of GC would do so in a unitary state and I do - despite the evidence of this forum. Saying they must do X before we can do Y is not the message I am trying to 'preach' here. I am trying to preach a rejection of that on the basis that we know such an approach has not worked. I am ready for a unitary state now. That can only happen if a majority of TC decide they are also ready for such. The point I am trying to get across to 'others' is that how they behave, how they act, what they choose to say and how they say it or not say, what they believe all have a direct and real world impact on the chance that it could be possible to convince enough other TC to be ready for a unitary state now. Not that I seem to be making any progress with this 'idea' here but if you do not try then you can not know.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby erolz66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:10 pm

Maximus wrote:Your side needs to drop its apartheid demands on the majority.


Apartheid is a pejorative propaganda term and an insult to those people who really did live under the apartheid regime. But if you mean I must reject a solution based on special protections or rights or privileges for my community in Cyprus, then I do today reject such notions. I did not always reject them. My position has changed over time.

Maximus wrote:it needs to return a lot of usurped and stolen property,


Property is imo largely an 'excuse' in my view. Sorting out property issues is relatively trivial in my view. I think a just and humanist solution that involves restitution in some case and compensation in others is more than possible. Like the ECHR I do not believe that you can solve injustices of the past by inflicting new injustices on others works. So if you mean I must support the return of every property to it's pre 74 status, regardless of what new hardship and suffering that might cause and irrespective of it return rather than fair compensation makes any difference to the ownber pre 74, then no I do not support or agree with this.

Maximus wrote:it has to remove settlers and Turkish troops from the island.


I support the removal of Turkish troops in the event of a unitary solution. I would consider time limited and number limited presence only so far as it is an effective 'means' of getting a majority of TC to support such a change to a unitary state in the first place. As for 'settlers' , why does this have to be a pre requisite for us to move to a unitary state that seeks to be a model of progressive modern democratic state that treats all citizens equally. The future Cyprus I want to see is a compassionate one, a generous one and one that would welcome and embrasse those who are not from Cyprus that have chosen to live in Cyprus. 'Settlers' are just normal people, some of them are good people and some of them are not but no more or less so than any other people. Nor do I believe this narrative that they (or any other 'group' for that matter) will destroy undermine or negatively change Cypriotness. I actually believe in the strength and power of 'Cypriotness' to change them not the other way around. If you were to empty Cyprus tomorrow and repopulate it with people from say China, I think over time, considerable time probably but with constant 'direction' they will increasingly become more 'Cypriot' in their attitudes and less Chinese. I do not see 'Cypriotness' as some weak fragile thing, threatened by every non Cypriot that is here or allowed to be here.

Maximus wrote:Turkey has to stop making threats and incursions in CY's EEZ.


You ask me what I as an individual have done to 'change' and then you tell me that Turkey must do X in order for it to be credible that I have myself changed ? Talk to Turkey about what you want from Turkey. You also might want to try understanding international law, its limits and the way it works and challenge some of the propaganda you seem to thrive on. The process of defining of an EEZ is part of a process laid out in an international agreement that Turkey is not party too. I have no doubt that should we prove able to create a unitary Cyprus, our ability to come to a peaceful, fair mutually agreed 'deal' with Turkey on such issues can only increase vs the current status quo and if such should prove impossible in the face of Turkish intransigence, our ability to get other states and world powers to support us against Turkey will also only massively increase. So rather than that being a 'pre requist' for us as moving to a unitary state solution, to me it is actually the reverse. Convincing a majority of TC to support a unitary state solution may well prove to be a pre requisite for ending these tension with Turkey.

Maximus wrote:Your side needs to dismantle the "TRNC".


Yep more than willing to do that and move straight to a unitary state. Me personally, I would vote for that tomorrow if I were given the chance. I have said so, here openly and publicly using my real name.

Maximus wrote:You are talking bollox, which is tantamount to blaming the other for Turkeys illegal occupation and ethnic cleansing of Cyprus and your sides attempts to implement an apartheid.


I am saying that I am ready to (finally and personally) to put the past behind us and look to the future. Are you ? Or are you going to keep trying to win the same war you have failed to win for the last 60 years or so now ?

Maximus wrote:He wants a democratic state imish, when this has been and is the RoC;s official negotiating position and was the point of Makarios's 13 amendments in 1963. BUT the TC's fight and oppose it, to this day. FFS......


Your indignation is 'rightgeous'. I know this, I accept this and I say this. The difference between us is that you do not know, will not accept and will not say that our indignation is also righteous.


---------------

So I will try and make things as simple for you as I can.

I want a unitary Cyprus that aims for a 'destination' of a Cyprus where it no more matter if you are a TC or GC than it matters if you are a fat or thin Cypriot, or a ginger haired Cypriot. You want the same , at least you claim to. So lets give you the benefit of the doubt here and say you want the same.

In order to be able to move from where we are now to a unitary Cypriot state we need a majority of TC to support such.

So the question becomes, what is more likely or less likely to convince a TC to support such. Particularly in terms of the things you have total control over, yourself.

Maybe I am an atypical freak, I do not know. What I do know is that nothing you have said here in 15 years to my memory has played any part in me changing my view on a unitary state and much has undermined my personal movement to such a position. None the less I would still vote tomorrow given the chance for a move to a unitary state, because I am convinced that enough (35% or more) GC would stand with me simply as Cypriots. The kind of people that have helped me come to this conclusion here on this forum and in real life as well are ironically people like Bananiot, that you would called a traitor.

The simple reality that I see is that choosing to be more bananiot than maximus (or b25 or Oracle or or or) has a much greater chance of giving us realistic route to a unitary Cyprus than the other way round.

You want to stick to the failure of the last 50 plus years, then go ahead. For my part ill just put you in the 65% or less and keep going as I am looking for realistic ways to convince a majority of TC to support a unitary solution.
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Re: eu vote results

Postby Lordo » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:54 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Lordo wrote:we would not need any other system but how can you trust these swines to behave. no chance. they will have to earn respect by showing not only do they repent the past but they will put in place systems that will not tolerate such behaviour.

then we are ready for a unitary state.


I understand where you are coming from but I reject the approach. I am impatient. Nor do I require that all GC be committed to a unitary Cyprus where it does not matter what kind of Cypriot such that they would stand with me simply as a Cypriot against oppression, persecution or discrimination of one kind of Cypriot against another kind of Cypriot. I do not require a majority of GC to be this way. I simply need to believe that 35% or more of GC would do so in a unitary state and I do - despite the evidence of this forum. Saying they must do X before we can do Y is not the message I am trying to 'preach' here. I am trying to preach a rejection of that on the basis that we know such an approach has not worked. I am ready for a unitary state now. That can only happen if a majority of TC decide they are also ready for such. The point I am trying to get across to 'others' is that how they behave, how they act, what they choose to say and how they say it or not say, what they believe all have a direct and real world impact on the chance that it could be possible to convince enough other TC to be ready for a unitary state now. Not that I seem to be making any progress with this 'idea' here but if you do not try then you can not know.

but my approach is the only thing that will bring along the tc community to a unitary state eventually.
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