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Serious questions to remoaners

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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby erolz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:25 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:Someone like you then...? :lol:


Evidence ?



Every repetitive 'extreme laden' post you have made on the subject... :roll:


So you think the idea that there are leavers who will accept only their personal and singular means of exit and no other, regardless of if that personal preference is a minority desire or not that I have defined 'extreme leavers' as well as their being leavers who accept that how we leave should also be decided democratically even if that means accepting they might not get their personal preferences as to how we leave, is just a 'fantasy' that I have made up because I want to believe that regardless of reality ? That there is no objective reality to that view at all ? Is this really the best example you can find that would demonstrate that I just chose to believe what I want to believe regardless of reality ? So if what I claim, that there are different types of leavers, is not a reflection of reality then what are you claiming IS reality. That there is only one type of leaver and they all, all 17.2 million of them think exactly the same as you in regards to what kind of Brexit we should do and how we should do it ? Is that what you are going to try and claim is a better reflection of reality than mine ?
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:39 am

erolz66 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:Someone like you then...? :lol:


Evidence ?



Every repetitive 'extreme laden' post you have made on the subject... :roll:


So you think the idea that there are leavers who will accept only their personal and singular means of exit and no other, regardless of if that personal preference is a minority desire or not that I have defined 'extreme leavers' as well as their being leavers who accept that how we leave should also be decided democratically even if that means accepting they might not get their personal preferences as to how we leave, is just a 'fantasy' that I have made up because I want to believe that regardless of reality ? That there is no objective reality to that view at all ? Is this really the best example you can find that would demonstrate that I just chose to believe what I want to believe regardless of reality ? So if what I claim, that there are different types of leavers, is not a reflection of reality then what are you claiming IS reality. That there is only one type of leaver and they all, all 17.2 million of them think exactly the same as you in regards to what kind of Brexit we should do and how we should do it ? Is that what you are going to try and claim is a better reflection of reality than mine ?



Aaand there you go again! :lol:
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby erolz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:03 am

cyprusgrump wrote:Aaand there you go again! :lol:


You appear to be confusing 'repetition', something we both do, with choosing to believe something not because it reflects actual reality but because it 'suits' regardless of reality. Something you claim I do but in fact do not but you do do.

Whatever either of us might think there IS a reality as to if all leavers think the same or not.

I claim there is a range of views amongst leavers and some on that range are 'extreme' and some are not.

You claim that all leavers think the same and have the same view not just on if we should leave but also on which way we should leave and how we should leave that way. This 'belief' is a a 'pre requisite' to insisting that there is no need to worry if there is a majority for leaving without a deal, because we already know there is because you voted leave, you think no deal is the way to leave and therefore because every leaver thinks exactly the same on these issues , we already know there is a majority in favour of a no deal exit.

Well I know which of these two positions and possibilities, yours and mine, is a reflection or reality and which is just choosing a belief that suits ;)
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby cyprusgrump » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:31 am

erolz66 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:Aaand there you go again! :lol:


You appear to be confusing 'repetition', something we both do, with choosing to believe something not because it reflects actual reality but because it 'suits' regardless of reality. Something you claim I do but in fact do not but you do do.



Not at all...

Multiple posters on this thread have taken time to detail their position, the binary nature of the referendum and their understanding of the default position agreed by parliament.

Every. Single. Time. You respond with your ridiculous 'Extreme Brexiter' claim. Every. Single. Time.

I posted earlier on this thread that 'debating' with Remainers is like playing Whac-a-Mole, they just keep popping up with the same old argument again and again and again...

...and like a mole down a little dark Remainer hole they seem completely disconnected from any but their own dark Remainer news, still believing Cambridge Analytica did wrong, still believing that there were 'lies', LIES I tells ya! during the campaign (but only on the leave side obvs.), the referendum was not morally valid (what?), the referendum was not legally binding, blah, blah, blah... :roll:
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby erolz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:59 am

cyprusgrump wrote:Multiple posters on this thread have taken time to detail their position, the binary nature of the referendum and their understanding of the default position agreed by parliament.


Yet not one of them has addressed the point that I have made in response to the 'default position' counter argument I have made (repeatedly in reaction). Namely that there is and has to be a difference between

Voting for something with a default position at a given point in time, in the knowledge that in doing so you retain the right to subsequently vote to democratically to change that default position and or the date it kicks in up to the 'given date'

and

voting for something with a default position at a given point in time, in the knowledge that in doing so you will then lose the right to change that default position or when it happens at all ever from that point on wards.

or even the more 'real' scenario

Voting for something with a default position at a given point in time, in the knowledge that in doing so you retain the right to subsequently vote to democratically to change that default position and or the date it kicks in and then that right and having that right removed after the fact and your vote (which is what proroguing represents)

As far as I am concerned the 'repetition' we are locked in is down to your failure to address or engage with my 'counter argument' at all or in any way and you instead just repeating your original argument over and over and over and over. Every. Single. Time.

cyprusgrump wrote:Every. Single. Time. You respond with your ridiculous 'Extreme Brexiter' claim. Every. Single. Time.


I can not explain my position at all without being able to differentiate between different types of those who voted leave, with different opinions on how that should be done. That one of your responses is in effect 'there are no different type of leavers, with different views and opinions on HOW we should leave, they all think exactly the same as you personally do as a leaver about how we should leave' does not change the fact that I can not put my position across at all without some way of differentiating different 'groups' of those who voted leave. So clearly you are not happy with the use of the word 'extreme' as the way I label that differentiation but I suspect if I labelled in entirely neutral terms, 'A group leavers' and 'B group leavers' you would still prefer to spend your time an energy making out that I am saying all and anyone who voted leave is an 'extremist' for no other reason that they voted leave no matter how many times and how clearly I state explicitly that is NOT what I am saying at all.
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby RichardB » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:31 pm

I really don't see what all this is about.Now I voted to remain , I had my reasons and as was my perogative I voted accordingly.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I remember the majority of the UK voted to leave. I believe this is called democracy.
Now no matter how much we argue about the rights and wrongs , we WILL for better or worse leave the EU.
Like it or not , for better or worse , we have to get used to it.
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby erolz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:41 pm

RichardB wrote:I really don't see what all this is about.Now I voted to remain , I had my reasons and as was my perogative I voted accordingly.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I remember the majority of the UK voted to leave. I believe this is called democracy.
Now no matter how much we argue about the rights and wrongs , we WILL for better or worse leave the EU.
Like it or not , for better or worse , we have to get used to it.


Round and round.

Is the idea that the people (directly or indirectly) should also decide by majority (direct or indirect) HOW we leave, given that there are many ways to leave and views and opinions on which way we should leave having democratically decided to leave, not also 'democracy' ? Or should democracy only be used to decide IF we leave but how we do so should be decided without democracy ?
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby MR-from-NG » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:44 pm

RichardB wrote:I really don't see what all this is about.Now I voted to remain , I had my reasons and as was my perogative I voted accordingly.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I remember the majority of the UK voted to leave. I believe this is called democracy.
Now no matter how much we argue about the rights and wrongs , we WILL for better or worse leave the EU.
Like it or not , for better or worse , we have to get used to it.

Fair point but what if the referendum was based on misinformation and a pack of lies? What if a good number of leave voters are now saying we were misinformed and now we have the facts we'd like to remain? What if it is clear as day and night that leaving the EU will ruin the economy of GB? We are basically jumping off a cliff knowing it will be the death of us.
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby RichardB » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:14 pm

erolz66 wrote:
RichardB wrote:I really don't see what all this is about.Now I voted to remain , I had my reasons and as was my perogative I voted accordingly.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I remember the majority of the UK voted to leave. I believe this is called democracy.
Now no matter how much we argue about the rights and wrongs , we WILL for better or worse leave the EU.
Like it or not , for better or worse , we have to get used to it.


Round and round.

Is the idea that the people (directly or indirectly) should also decide by majority (direct or indirect) HOW we leave, given that there are many ways to leave and views and opinions on which way we should leave having democratically decided to leave, not also 'democracy' ? Or should democracy only be used to decide IF we leave but how we do so should be decided without democracy ?


I don't see how this would be possible. Should we

A. Remain (straight forward choice, no change then)

B. Leave with Irish back stop only

C. Leave with customs union

D. Leave with back stop and customs union

E. Leave with no deal

F. Leave but only if we still have soft borders

Etc etc

Blimey Erolz the voting sheet could have countless options and no decision would ever be made.

As I said I voted to remain but the majority voted to leave. It's now up to the politicians to get the best deal for the UK.

Only time will tell now if it was the correct decision.
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Re: Serious questions to remoaners

Postby erolz66 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:53 pm

RichardB wrote:I don't see how this would be possible.


I think there are ways of ensuring that how the country chooses to leave can be democratic even if the number of possible 'choices' is wide and diverse. Yes such ways would require more 'effort' than not doing so but that for me is no reason why we should abandon democracy and the way we have 'fairly' made decisions on everything else for the last 500 years or so. I think a process of rounds and 'knocking out' options at each stage is perfectly possible, either via our democratic representatives or by the people directly. Lets be clear here as well, for me it not just that a no deal exit without any need for further consent for such from the people directly or their elective representatives is not democratic, it is that , to date, is is positively 'anti democratic' based on how we have 'run' democracy in the UK for the last 500 years. Our democratically elective representatives have in fact already voted, democratically, that a no deal exit is not their majority desire. Now I am not the kind of 'democrat' that says that because they have done so once already that means that that decision is set in stone and unchangeable in to the future. Nor do I have a problem with the idea that 'this is because our Politicans are not representative' therefore we should be given the opportunity of changing them. I think we do have to recognise that TM did do this once already and it did not 'help' but worsened the problem. I have no problem with doing it again, I actually would and do welcome such as a way of possibly breaking deadlock. However I think we do have to have a 'plan' for what we do in the event that we again try changing our MP's democratically and still end up with deadlock because that is imo, far from an impossibility should we have another GE.

RichardB wrote:As I said I voted to remain but the majority voted to leave. It's now up to the politicians to get the best deal for the UK.


I have no problems with democratically elected politicians deciding on how we leave, I just want them to do so democratically in the same way we have had them makes such decisions on our behalf for the last 500 years. Is that really such an outrageous notion ?
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