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brexit not far away now

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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby erolz66 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:59 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_ ... ion#Stages

The degree of economic integration can be categorized into seven stages:[3]

1. Preferential trading area
2. Free-trade area
3. Customs union
4. Single market
5. Economic union
6. Economic and monetary union
7. Complete economic integration


The UK currently trades with the EU at level 5.5. We can not trade with the EU and have all the benefits of trading with them at this level whilst only having the same level of 'integration' as needed to trade at level 2. It just does not and can not work that way. Sure we can negotiate a great and wonderful level 2 deal with the EU , but that will always involve and has to involve more barriers to trade being in place than trading with them at level 5.5

The bulk of the (real not made up) issues with the border between NI and Ireland are removed if you decide to do a deal at level 3 or higher. Anything under level 3 and they remain.

The 'backstop' (if agreed to) is what would happen if we fail to negotiate a trade deal at all or at lower than level 3

The day after a no deal exit none of the issues associated with trading at below level 3 whilst maintaining the level 'openness' that currently exist in the border between RoI and NI go away. They are still there and remain unresolved and will still be of central legitimate concern to the EU.

Level 3 trade requires that all members participating at this level chose to negotiate deals external to the block communally and not individually.

Level 4 trade does not require that members negotiate external trade deals communally but it does require things like 'free movement of people'.
Last edited by erolz66 on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby Kikapu » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:22 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Not at all. This would be the perfect time to have a re-entering the EU referendum as soon as the UK is officially out in one form or the other, then if the vote not to join again, then no one can say they they did not know all the facts after everything that has happened in the last 3 years. It is perfectly legal to hold another referendum to enter the EU or not after we officially leave. It may be the ONLY way to unite the country no matter which way the results may go and no one can say they did not know what they were voting for.


What would be the point of having another vote before we have even discovered what being 'out' is like...?

All the Leavers will say 'they did not know the facts' because we wouldn't have experienced being out...

Given that we've been 'in' for 40 years, being out for a few (I'd say 5 minimum) to see what it is like doesn't seem unreasonable...?


What does it matter if leaving hasn’t been experienced long enough as long as the majority wants to re enter the EU? Leaving with Brexit had no time limit when it can be voted again in a referendum to re enter. A second confirmation by the leavers in the re enter (not) EU referendum would not only unite the country, but would Olson confirm once and for all the leavers were right the first time round after everything has been discussed to death the last 3 years.


Discussed but not implemented... :roll:

You are trying to set a dangerous precedent.

Are you suggesting that after every GE we should have another the day after...?

I mean, that is your logic right...?

We had an election, fair and square and Labour/Lib Dems/Tories won...

And the day after we should have another to see if we really agreed that Labour/Lib Dems/Tories was the result we wanted...? :?

How many times do you go round that loop before we agree that Labour/Lib Dems/Tories actually won and that is what the country wants...?

Who decides...?

The moment we leave the EU voted by the majority, the referendum would be implemented.

No, I am not suggesting there should be another election right after the GE already taken as it is not the same as the Brexit referendum, because politicians come and go without much, if any, difference made to people’s lives or the survival of the country. People know who they have voted for and always have accepted the outcome in GE. BJ was selected to be PM couple of weeks ago and yet, he could be possibly kicked out with a no confidence vote or if calls for a new GE. Are you saying that shouldn’t happen because he hasn’t been in his job long enough as a PM?

Brexit has already ended the careers of 2 PMs and the 3rd is in it’s crosshairs, because Brexit is a totally different animal altogether that your average GE. Democracy is not static. How many governments has Italy had since WWII, something like 60 or something crazy?

In the USA, politicians can be recalled soon after being elected to office. This is how Arnold Schwarzenegger became the Governor of California as the re elected former governor was recalled due to some failed campaign promises if my memory serves me correct. In the end, the majority of the voters decide, as they have with Brexit, so the next referendum would have nothing to do with Brexit, but only should the UK re entering the EU or not. Totally different referendum altogether.
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:27 pm

Kikapu wrote:In the end, the majority of the voters decide, as they have with Brexit, so the next referendum would have nothing to do with Brexit, but only should the UK re entering the EU or not. Totally different referendum altogether.


Well, that has got to be the most ridiculous sentence ever posted on the subject! :lol:

So the referendum to immediately reverse Brexit would have nothing to do with Brexit? :?

You know, Leavers like my good self have a phrase for the madness that seems to overtake some Remainers, we call it Brexit Derangement Syndrome... :lol:
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby Londonrake » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:36 pm

I have to add :lol: that in the past week I've read stuff posted by people, who obviously in their hearts truly believe that we shouldn't leave the EU (whatever their cover - no deal, democracy, et al ) and at the end I really don't have a bloody clue what they've said. :? It's like reading the small print on an insurance policy.

If you're truly a "democrat", it's actually so simple. :wink:
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby erolz66 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:36 pm

Some remainers have a name for the madness that seems to overtake some leavers. They call it 'being a plonker' ;)
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby erolz66 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:39 pm

Londonrake wrote:If you're truly a "democrat", it's actually so simple. :wink:


Yes it really is very very simple. The people should NEVER have anything imposed on them that a majority of them do not want. If there is even marginal doubt on what it really is that the people do or do not want in majority it should be tested and not assumed.

Would you not agree as a 'democrat' with the above ? If not why not ?
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby Londonrake » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:40 pm

erolz66 wrote:Some remainers have a name for the madness that seems to overtake some leavers. They call it 'being a plonker' ;)



As Milti so often says.

And, if you want to understand why so many who voted for leave are so angry - and why Farage's single-issue Brexit party has gone from birth to becoming the largest party in the (farcical) EU Parliament I can thoroughly recommend you taking time out to look at the stuff he has posted. Which is pretty par for the course in my experience.
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby Robin Hood » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:41 pm

Erolz66:
What they think about if we should leave or stay is history. But surely they have a right to an opinion on how we leave ? That this is not wiped out just because they voted leave ? MP's did vote on May's deal. Do you think that should not have been voted on ? That TM should have struck the best deal she could and sign it and we all then just get behind it ? If you think it should be voted on, then should it not be voted on by MP's that are (or should be) reflecting the views of their constituents ? Do those who voted leave have no right to a say in such decisions just because they voted leave ?

Why? The question was IN or OUT not how or when or on what terms! Having made the decision to leave, surely don’t we pay politicians and civil servants enough to make the decisions on the details as to how to implement it? Isn't that what we pay them fore? I have been overruled on occasions in my career but I didn’t go and sulk in the office and moan about it, I carried out the decision made. That was my job! I had a say, I was overruled but I got on with it! But I didn’t keep going back and complaining about a decision I disagreed with. Quite often I was later proved right ..... not every time, but when I did the reversion to Plan A was usually very low profile so that those that made the original decision were not made to look silly. :wink:
Do you accept that there is a whole range of trade deals that can be done between parties ? That some remove more barriers to trade than others ? That there is a general correlation between things like how many barriers a given form of deal removes and on how many things and things like how much 'regulatory alignment' there needs to be in a given form of deal ? Do you not think there is anything unrealistic in the idea that we can free ourselves from the 'influence of EU Mandarins' and yet still maintain a form of trade deal that is dependent on such 'regulatory alignment' ? That we have in no way sought to try and 'have our cake and eat it' or that attempts to do so doing so plays any part in defining where we end up ?

What’s wrong with carrying on as we have done for the last few years in trade with the EU? If it means just changing the numbers on a customs form, or not applying EU Law but UK Law ..... that’s where you work out differences. Gradually over time you get an agreed system. But where EU Law clashes with UK Law then we should have the right to apply our Laws in Our country.

At present I don’t believe you can buy Cyprus banana’s in the EU because they don’t comply with the EU regulations. So now we could buy Cyprus banana’s in the UK (They are sweeter than the normal imported ones anyway.) But will Big Brother EU step in and forbid Cyprus from exporting? That is the sort of mindless legislation I would be pleased to see thrown in the trash can.
You are getting divorced .....(and) ..... yet you believe that you can do so without any negative impact or material impact on you as a result of getting divorced ........

I didn’t say that! I said you discuss and compromise on the basis that neither one of you is going carry on as before but you need to set in motion what those compromises will be, try to make decisions that will minimise the impact and cope with any problems that occur when they occur in the same cooperative manner. If one party then runs off to a Lawyer in a fit of peak ..... you can chuck any likely hood of a smooth separation.

Let’s pass on the Irish problem ..... it’s a bit like the Cyprus problem ....... there will never really be a solution that will please everyone involved. :|
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby erolz66 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:52 pm

Londonrake wrote:And, if you want to understand why so many who voted for leave are so angry -


I already understand the anger of those who voted leave with us being where we are now. Nor do I deny the reality that you can be someone who voted remain and also be angry with where we are now. Londonrake already asked me 'what do they have to be angry about' and I answered.

Londonrake wrote:and why Farage's single-issue Brexit party has gone from birth to becoming the largest party in the (farcical) EU Parliament I can thoroughly recommend you taking time out to look at the stuff he has posted. Which is pretty par for the course in my experience.


I do not consider that the Brexit party went from 'nothing' to blah blah blah , and I think that if it had of gone so from nothing (rather than your term birth) then you point would so much stronger. Racing Point F1 team went from 'birth' to immediately being competitive with mid level teams. This is is no way as remarkable as if it had done this from 'nothing'.
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Re: brexit not far away now

Postby Kikapu » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:58 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Kikapu wrote:In the end, the majority of the voters decide, as they have with Brexit, so the next referendum would have nothing to do with Brexit, but only should the UK re entering the EU or not. Totally different referendum altogether.


Well, that has got to be the most ridiculous sentence ever posted on the subject! :lol:

So the referendum to immediately reverse Brexit would have nothing to do with Brexit? :?

You know, Leavers like my good self have a phrase for the madness that seems to overtake some Remainers, we call it Brexit Derangement Syndrome... :lol:

You may well laugh as what I have written being ridiculous, but there isn’t anything ridiculous about it. Surely you must believe in Democracy and that the majority vote rules, no? You will get your Brexit implemented, so where is the faul play? Surely you do not want to deny others democratic right to vote should the UK become an EU member or not, once the UK is no longer an EU member once Brexit has been implemented? Well?
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