Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Has has succeeded in what? Partionioning the island?

The island was partitioned when Turkey invaded in 1974. What Papadopoulos has succeeded is to keep the partition illegal and not to be legalized through some Annan partition plan.

Do you really see Papadopoulos as someone that can unite the island? He has a lot of work to do to gain the trust of TCs and I'm not even sure if he cares to get that trust.

The problem is that nobody that asks for democracy and human rights can ever be trusted by Turkish Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots like only the ones that promise them that they will get 4 times as much as any other Cypriot citizen.
Papadopoulos as the president of Cyprus has to do what will benefit all Cypriots, and not what will benefit a small group in the expense of all others.

[metecyp]

The island was partitioned when Turkey invaded in 1974. What Papadopoulos has succeeded is to keep the partition illegal and not to be legalized through some Annan partition plan.

So keeping the partition illegal is the foremost duty of the president of the Republic of Cyprus? Other things like union of the island, cooperation of the two communities, working for an acceptable solution for both sides are minor details, I guess? The invasion has been illegal for 30 years and it can remain illegal for another 50 years. If you want to get rid of the invasion, then you have to work for the conditions to get rid of it. Contrary to what you think, spending your energy to keep it illegal on the paper does not contribute for the conditions whereas working for the cooperation of the two communities, making the RC truly bicommunal, working for a solution agreeable to both sides do contribute. I guess we disagree on how to get rid of the invasion. You insist that keeping it illegal and making it as costly as possible is the way to go and I disagree fundamentally because what you're suggesting creates "winners-losers" situation instead of "win-win" situation and we know that as long as there are winners and losers, there's friction.

The problem is that nobody that asks for democracy and human rights can ever be trusted by Turkish Cypriots.

That's simply not true. Turkish Cypriots do not trust someone that hides his true intentions behind democracy and human rights. Democracy has two parts, majority ruling and minority being listened/respected. You tend to emphasize the majority ruling part and ask TCs to trust in the majority rule when the majority has still difficulty accepting the RC as it is or the majority has no problem using the Greek national anthem.

You're wrong in human rights as well. Nobody wants to deny a GC refugee to return back. I wish everybody could have returned back. But if you truly wanted a federal solution that takes TCs fears/desires into account, then you wouldn't have had so much problem with some restrictions. You, on the other hand, easily dismiss TC fears as excuses and blame them for being greedy and thieves and then you want TCs to trust in the majority rule...what a contradiction!

[magikthrill]

Turkish Cypriots do not trust someone that hides his true intentions behind democracy and human rights. Democracy has two parts, majority ruling and minority being listened/respected.

My friend a democracy is the ruling of the majority. 18% of the people cannot have the same rights as 80% of the people. That can never lead to equality and a true democracy. If TCs want to rule Cyprus, they have to show themselves worthy and earn the respect of the MAJORITY of the island. Not the majority of the 18%.

[Piratis]

So keeping the partition illegal is the foremost duty of the president of the Republic of Cyprus? Other things like union of the island, cooperation of the two communities, working for an acceptable solution for both sides are minor details, I guess?

For union, cooperation etc, Papadopoulos can do nothing by himself. Your side also should show that what they want is union, cooperation etc. So far the Turkish side has shown that is not willing to accept anything less than a disguised partition. So if you are not cooperating, don't blame that on Papadopoulos.

Contrary to what you think, spending your energy to keep it illegal on the paper does not contribute for the conditions whereas working for the cooperation of the two communities, making the RC truly bicommunal, working for a solution agreeable to both sides do contribute.

If we didn't spend the energy to keep it illegal then everything else wouldn't matter since if TCs had a recognized separate country they wouldn't care for unification. The other things you said are very important, but to have those a prerequisite is to keep partition illegal. Another prerequisite is goodwill from both sides, but unfortunately the Turkish side does not accept anything less than disguised partition.

I guess we disagree on how to get rid of the invasion. You insist that keeping it illegal and making it as costly as possible is the way to go and I disagree fundamentally because what you're suggesting creates "winners-losers" situation instead of "win-win" situation and we know that as long as there are winners and losers, there's friction.

No, if we didn't keep it illegal thats when we would have looses, and those losers would be us.
Yes, it should be as costly as possible for Turkey because only in that way the balance will become a bit more "balanced" and only in that way the solution can be closer to a "win-win" situation. Otherwise, it will not be "win-win" and we already have the example of the Annan plan to prove this.

Democracy has two parts, majority ruling and minority being listened/respected. You tend to emphasize the majority ruling part...

No, I am sorry but I always say that the majority ruling should be in accordance with all human rights and with respect to all minorities (whichever those happen to be).

the majority has no problem using the Greek national anthem.

i said many times that the Greek national anthem was one of the many wrongs of the 1960 agreements.

That's simply not true. Turkish Cypriots do not trust someone that hides his true intentions behind democracy and human rights.

The problem is that you will always see "hidden intentions" to everybody that asks for democracy, isn't it? I remember once you said that I had hidden intentions when I asked for this too. A GC asking for democracy = A GC with hidden intentions. Isn't this the way you see it?

[metecyp]

If TCs want to rule Cyprus, they have to show themselves worthy and earn the respect of the MAJORITY of the island. Not the majority of the 18%.

What are you talking about? TCs do not want to rule the island or GCs. TCs just want to be able to exist on the island as a community and not be oppressed and dominated by GCs as it was the case between 1963-74. True democracy is the ultimate goal but TCs do not trust the goodwill of the GC majority that has no problem of using the Greek national anthem for the RC (and this is just one example).

[-mikkie2-]

TCs do not want to rule the island or GCs.

Perhaps not but Turkey does!

True democracy is the ultimate goal but TCs do not trust the goodwill of the GC majority that has no problem of using the Greek national anthem for the RC (and this is just one example).

And we don't have true democracy as opposed to the perfect democratic model in the north?

The trouble is Metecyp, Turkey has not shown ANY goodwill to the GC's for the past 30 years. All Turkey has to offer is words but little action.

You may well say what are the GC's doing to show goodwill. What can we do when we have 35000 troops armed to the teeth on the other side of the green line? Lie back and say 'ok guys, you were right, we can't be trusted because we are bad people and all we want to do is dominate the TC's. As you are such an excellent model of statehood and democracy we will do as you say'.

What about Turkey showing true goodwill? Why not start removing some of these soldiers instead of arming them with the best weapons? Why not show good will and hand over Varosha as you were told to do by the UN so long ago. Why not accept that you have committed attrocities during the invasion and at least have the decency to to let the families of the missing have the dignity to find out their fate? Is this too much to ask or is this to be part of the solution as Talat keeps banging on about. Why not show good will by dropping the veto that Turkey puts before Cyprus when it wants to join important international organisations such as the OECD? Well before too long Turkey will get a taste of her own medicine when Cyprus vetos Turkeys EU hopes!

Until you TC's get it into your heads that the problem is Turkey and not the ordinary TC's and GC's then there is no hope for Cyprus to be a unified country.

[/quote]

[michalis5354]

What are you talking about? TCs do not want to rule the island or GCs. TCs just want to be able to exist on the island as a community and not be oppressed and dominated by GCs as it was the case between 1963-74. True democracy is the ultimate goal but TCs do not trust the goodwill of the GC majority that has no problem of using the Greek national anthem for the RC (and this is just one example).

But the policies are enforced to the TCs from Turkey. Thats was the case , at least since today. I do not think that the TCs have a freedom of decision to accept what they want. And this is what is being revealed by many well respected TCs.

[brother]

Yes at the moment turkey and ROC are busy at each others throats on the international arena.

But that aside do we really want to keep pointing fingers when we could be doing is devising a cypriot plan, how about some cooperation amongst the members on this site as we all want union and freedom via human rights.

[brother]

13 October 2004

Entry talks to start in April'

* EU sources say Cyprus dispute will not be set as a condition when EU leaders make a decision on Turkish entry talks in December.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANKARA - Turkish Daily News

The negotiations for Turkey's eventual accession to the European Union are likely to begin in the first half of next year, if European leaders agree to make a decision at a December summit to set a date for the start of Turkish talks, EU diplomats in Ankara said.

The start of the negotiations could be delayed to the second half only if a very important development occurs, a diplomat said whithout elaborating. He said the talks were likely to begin on April 26 next year when the EU-Turkey Association Council meet.

The recognition of divided Cyprus' internationally-recognized Greek Cypriot administration by Ankara would not be set as a condition, he added.

"It is politically unacceptable for a member state to try to prevent a process which is approved by all other 24 member states," the diplomat who asked to remain unidentified said in response to a question over the Greek Cypriot Foreign Minister George Iacovou's threat of vetoing the start of Turkey's negotiations.

Iacovou also said his administration sought Turkish steps for the resolution of the Cyprus dispute to be set as a condition for the start of Ankara's entry talks.

EU sources said the phrase "open-ended," used to describe the possible negotiation process for Turkey, was not a new concept and was not used only for Ankara. "You cannot take a negotiation process for granted for any country," the diplomat said.

Some expressions in the EU Commission's report that irked Turkish officials were included in order to ease Europeam public opposition to Turkish entry, he said. "It will be easier for those member states to convey their message and sway public opinion in this way," the diplomat added.

The possibility of imposing permanent limitations on the free movement of Turkish workers was against the basic principles of the EU which was the free movement of persons, goods, capital and services, he explained.

The diplomat said there were different understandings about the definition of the "minority" concept and this issue should be sorted out by discussions between Ankara and Brussels in order to reach a common understanding. He also said the Lausanne Treaty, which described the minorities in Turkey, was not and would not be a part of union law.

"The ongoing public debates in the member states are very useful for the union itself," an EU source said referring to heated discussions in member states whether to embrace the 70-million-strong Turkish population that is overwhelmingly Muslim.

[metecyp]

Until you TC's get it into your heads that the problem is Turkey and not the ordinary TC's and GC's then there is no hope for Cyprus to be a unified country.

So Turkey is the only one blame, and that's it? I'm not going to defend Turkey but the Cyprus problem was so simple and if there was one person to blame, then we wouldn't have had the Cyprus problem. I'm ready to accept that Turkey has a big share of the blame in Cyprus but the GC side has been giving Turkey excuses to stay in Cyprus. The mentality "I'm the majority, I own Cyprus, I'll rule however I like it" creates the conditions for Turkey to stay in Cyprus and Turkey, having strategic interests on the island, uses these excuses very well.

I know that ordinary TCs and GCs are not the problem but you have to try to understand why an ordinary TC does not feel safe living in the majority of GCs before excluding his fears as excuses.

But the policies are enforced to the TCs from Turkey. Thats was the case , at least since today. I do not think that the TCs have a freedom of decision to accept what they want. And this is what is being revealed by many well respected TCs.

Why do you think TCs have no freedom of decision? Because they're isolated from the world, their economy is completely dependent on Turkey, their transportation is only possible through Turkey, they're not allowed to participate in any international events. So TCs have 2 choices, accept Turkey's domination or accept GC domination. Which one would you choose?

And again by the policies of your side under the name of "keeping the invasion illegal", this structure is enforced in the north and TCs get more and more dependant on Turkey and hence less and less freedom in decision-making.

But this doesn't mean that TCs always want to be ruled by Turkey or they'll look for orders from Turkey in a federal Cyprus. Most TCs want nothing to do with Turkey or Greece.