Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

What about when Turkey rebuffs the comments made by Talat that he could renegotiate the plan or that TC and GC could jointly run the Larnaca and Famagusta ports.

Clearly, it is Turkey that tells Talat what line to toe, not the other way around. He gets a slap from Ankara if he doesn't do as he is told.

[brother]

The same can be said for ROC, that is why the greek ministers have come down to cyprus and are making joint statements about there actions in the lead up to december.

Is ROC not capable of making its own mind up about what to do, well no it is not they will follow the ideas and plans of greece hence the joint statements.

You may claim that the ROC does as it wants but we all know that is not true and that greece is very much active in all its political decisions.

[-mikkie2-]

We are not party to the discussions between Greek and Cypriot governments. We can only speculate what is being said to whom.

[brother]

And the same goes for turkish and cypriot goverments but if we are honest to ourselves then we all know that you do not have to be a rocket scientist to know what is going on even if it is speculation.

Maybe we should let turkey and greece resolve this for us as we cypriots seem incapable of doing anything without letting turkey and greece stick there noses in.

[MicAtCyp]

The mentality of constantly blaming turkey gets us nowhere and our reluctant leaders who sit about doing nothing but giving out a statement every now and again are out true letdown.

Brother, who are our elected leaders? For 30 years you had Denktash.Just only recently you had a change from 100% Denktash to should I say 50% Denktash? On the other hand we changed 4 leaders so far.Even Papadopoulos is disposable for us, after about 3.5 years.Can you say the same for Talat or Denktash? What developments would you expect all those years other than zero? Denktash himself admitted to M A birant that his tactic all these years was to set outrageous demands.
I think there has not been any time that the TCs presented a leader who could negotiate. Just recently Talat said: "Of course I am ready to discuss with Papadopoulos. I will hear what he tells me then go to Ankara and I will tell them what he said".

Ha,ha,ha, ha, ha....... What a nice messenger !!!!

And you still insist the TC side can present us a leader who can take decisions? Turkey is behind everything, Turkey decides.Fullstop.

You may claim that the ROC does as it wants but we all know that is not true and that greece is very much active in all its political decisions

Please stop equalising different things.It is a different thing to have Greece supporting us by saying "this is what I can do to help you, tell me if there is anything else I can do" and a different thing to have Turkey deciding for you, most of the times against you .Tell me one time Turkey decided something for you that was not against your own interests.Tell me one time you disagreed with Turkey and your leaders did not follow the Orders of Ankara. For your information when the order came from Ankara to open the gates Denktash got fuuuurious..... Did he not follow though?

[pantelis]

Please let's stick to the bananas and the cucumbers analogy.

The German and Japanese leaders, along with a large number of their population, committed genocide and atrocities, during the last century's wars.
The international community tried and punished the criminals, and to some extend, held that particular generation accountable of these crimes. The Germans and the Japanese people accepted the mistakes of their leaders and now are among the most respected and peaceful countries of our violent world.

What happened in Cyprus between 63 and 74 cannot even compare with what happened during the WWII. The United Nations, in their infinite wisdom, decide to punish the victims of the Turkish Invasion and all the generations after them, by legalizing the same crimes they had criticized numerous times with their resolutions.
What we see happening in Cyprus, expulsion of the indigenous population and the importation of foreign settlers to replace them, did not happen in Germany or in Japan. It is a practice that was invented in Palestine and perfected in Cyprus.
How much more land should the Israelites need to capture, so that they can bargain better their "peace" with the Palestinians easier? How many more communities do they have to uproot, or houses destroy, to strengthen their position? Is that problem ever go away? Where can someone draw the line to mark what is compromise and what is injustice? The corruption of the leadership, on both sides, does not allow any room for compromise. It is in the interest of all Arab leaders to perpetuate the Palestinian problem, because it diverts the attention of public from noticing the gross corruption of these leaders. For the "democratic" West, the conflict promotes arms sales, an efficient way to recoup some of the money they paid for the oil from this region.
We like to blame the leaders of both sides in order to make the core problem of injustice go away or diminished.
Do you think Arafat's death will solve the Palestinian problem?
Do you think Papadopoulo's or Denktash's death will tip the balance of justice of the Cyprus problem?
These games of attempting (to an extend succeeding), to portray the Turkish Cypriots and the Turkish settlers as the victims of the Turkish occupation of a major part of Cyprus, do not contribute in bringing the two communities together. The fact that foreign interests offer absolution for Turkey's crimes in Cyprus, simply because the Turkish Cypriots voted "yes" and the Greek Cypriots voted "no" to a disguised de facto partition of the island, with a plan fabricated on the basis of military strength and geopolitical interests, not on justice and human rights, will never win the hearts and minds of the majority of the Cypriots and it will never all Cypriots to unite under a common cause, a prerequisite for the formula towards peace and reconciliation.
The 1960 agreements were forced on the majority of the people of Cyprus and resulted in a disaster. If the Annan plan is forced on the people again, history will repeat itself. In 1963, Turkey did not allow the Turkish Cypriots to negotiate the necessary changes to the forced 1960 constitution. Denktash was a puppet of Ankara then, as he is right now. The same people who fabricated the 1960 constitution, fabricated the Annan Plan. The aim of both schemes was and to divide the people of Cyprus into two military camps. So far, everything goes well.......... for everyone else, except the majority of the Cypriots.

PS.
It is ironic to see that many of the Greek Cypriots who support the Annan Plan, are the same persons who actively participated and supported the 74 coup and who called themselves super-patriots and ethnic fanatics. (The rest of us, in those days, were labeled f...leftists). Is the Annan plan their last chance to escape from the justice that awaits them, for all the crimes they had committed against all Cypriots, Greek and Turkish, bfore during and after the coup? I cannot explain this strange phenomenon in any other way.
Bananiot can you please help me?

[Bananiot]

This citizen of the banana republic loves you too, pantelis. Let me start with your last statement.

ALL the unrepented coupists, ALL extreme right wingers and ALL social fascists voted against the A plan. Anyone that tells you different is a plain liar. Akel, the biggest left wing party that commands almost 35% of the popular vote, said the plan was basically ok and that all the party needed in order to call upon its members to vote "yes" were some sort of assurances that it would be implemented.

In this thread and in previous threads you seem to adhere to the notion that only GC were wrong done. I have questioned this on numerous occasions in various ways. I have not done this in order to play down the plight of the GC refugees. Being a refugee myself I know too well what it means to be uprooted. I believe the premature death of both my parents, in exile, had a lot to do with their uprooting. However, I try to stand above personal loss and view things from a different prospective. What do I see? I see TC people who were uprooted twice in one lifetime (some of them would have been uprooted thrice had the A plan gone through) and I also see that no one ever complained about this, no one ever thought of the human rights of these people. For 11 or so years we were more than happy to turn the RoC into a pure Greek Cypriot administration and looked for ways to turn it into a Greek province. We failed, miserably! Now we pay the penalty for our stupidity. I hear you thinking. Why should we all have to pay for the actions of some thick headed nationalists? This is life my friend. You talked about Germany. Will Poland ever surrend the parts of east Germany it now holds? Does Germany raise such issues? Some neo nazi no doubt wil but you know the answer.

"Where can someone draw the line to mark what is compromise and what is injustice" you ask. What do you think? Is a bizonal, bicommunal federation a decent compromise? Mikkie, in a previous thread told us that he believes not and he reckoned Papadopoulos has a similar idea and hence his actions which aim at bringing the TC's back to the RoC. I have no problem with this. Show me a way this can be achieved and I am with you.

[-mikkie2-]

Bananiot,

I did not say that I didn't believe in a bizonal, bicommunal federation.

What I was saying was that the TC's hava a way to enter into a partnership by 1st exercising their rights given to them under the RoC. From then on we then have the means to negotiate a new state of affairs AS CYPRIOTS. If that leads to a bizonal, bicommunal federation then fine. It gives us the chance to solve our problem ourselves without having Turkey or Greece, UK, or US dictating a solution for us. They choose not to do that. The reason? Because they (or rather their leadership) wants to largely keep what they stole.

To me, the first steps to build trust between the two communities is for the political re-participation of the TC's under the RoC.

The Annan plan had very generous provision for the 'many times' displaced TC's. They would be living like kings under the Annan plan. Adequate recompense for their suffering you may say. But what about the suffering of the GC refugees who in the vast majority had nothing to do with extreeme nationalism and wanted nothing to do with the actions of the few?

The Annan plan also hindered human rights. It would have created 2nd class citizens in Cyprus. And don't tell me that would not be the case, or it is a price worth paying. It is not. It would have sown more seeds of resentment and hate for the future.

[Bananiot]

You do realise that you are asking for the impossible and the fact that you do not accept (otherwise you would not use ") that many TC's were uprooted twice in a lifetime is a clear indication to TC's of our intentions if we woke up one morning and things were as they were before july 20 1974.

At this point I would like to remind you that even Papadopoulos accepts now that any solution will be based on the A plan. Lets pray that this time, if ever we get another chance, he will negotiate it in order to improve it rather than make it worse so that he could sell a "no" vote to the people. May be he has accepted at long last that there is no other way to save Cyprus.

[-mikkie2-]

Well, you have changed your tune!

I agree that there is no going back to the RoC as it was, but I was suggesting using the RoC as a means of bringing about a new state of affairs in Cyprus. As you well know 90% if the RoC constitution is the Annan Plan anyway.

My point is to find a method to build trust between the communities.

The provisions of the A plan that disgust me are the compromise over political rights, restricted freedom of movement of Cypriots, the fact that ALL settlers will stay resulting in the severe restrictions of refugees to get their property back and the fact that Turkey (and UK) enhances her rights in Cyprus. If these issues are addressed properly then we have something we can work with.