Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

tcypriot, in 1963 you left yourselves, and you were not kicked out. This was all part of Turkey's plan for partition.

In 1963 Makarios made some proposals. TCs didn't like them and they left. Those proposals were never implemented and TCs were never kicked out.

It is true, that GCs didn't handle the situation well at that time, and they have part of the blame. They didn't bother to try to bring TCs back. But the other part of the blame belongs to the TCs that saw those events as an excuse for partition, which has been their aim since 1960.

To me Piratis this is just 'revisionist' history. It is not just that the GC administration failed to deal with the situation very well. They were actively involved in creating the situation. I personaly think it is clear that Makarios from the moment he signed the London/Zurich agreements sought to find ways of 'abbrogating' those parts that stopped a sole GC dominated adminstration from ruling in Cyprus. I alos think that were it was not possible to do so 'legaly' he was prepared to do so 'illegaly' and with the use of force. Even if the TC had not 'walked out' (as you put it) in 63 these attempts (legal or illegal) would not have stopped imo.

In any case, nothing can justify illegal acts of today.

Its not about justification. What you (and magikthrill) have to understand is that if you keep on insisting that 'the only problem in Cyprus today is Turkeys presence in Cyprus' leave TC no choice but to remind them of the events of the past that led upto this situation and how many of the core issues realting to this remain today. Such assertations are not about solving the Cyprus problem - they are just a contemporary extension of the problem itself.

Wouldn't it be best to leave the past behind and start fresh as a new modern, democratic, independent European Cyprus?

Sounds good. How are we going to do that then? By denying the past? By both communites maintaining one sided and biased versions of the past?

[insan]

tcypriot, in 1963 you left yourselves, and you were not kicked out. This was all part of Turkey's plan for partition.

In 1963 Makarios made some proposals. TCs didn't like them and they left. Those proposals were never implemented and TCs were never kicked out.

It is true, that GCs didn't handle the situation well at that time, and they have part of the blame. They didn't bother to try to bring TCs back. But the other part of the blame belongs to the TCs that saw those events as an excuse for partition, which has been their aim since 1960.

Are you sure of that Piratis? Weren't the Makarios proposals a part of Greece's and GCs ruling elite's "annexation" plan... And wasn't this plan Greece's and GCs ruling elite's annexation plan since 30s? Where had they put TCs in their plan?


I urge you to go cyprus-conflict.net and read Galo Plaza's 1964 report... I fed up to hear nonesenses...

[-mikkie2-]

Erol

The events of 74 did not violate international law so much as they violated GC (which I think is your REAL gripe). Many would say (Piratis amongst them perhaps?) what goes around comes around

I beg to differ with you on this one.

The invasion of 74 clearly violated international law and the UN charter. Turkey initially had sympathy in the world in the 1st phase of their 'peace' operation. After the slaughter that was happening in Kerynia came out and after Turkey decided to push ahead with partition, and thus abandoning the re-establishement of constitutional order, Turkey lost any support that it had. The countles UN resolutions against Turkey should be enough proof of that.

[-mikkie2-]

Erol

The events of 74 did not violate international law so much as they violated GC (which I think is your REAL gripe). Many would say (Piratis amongst them perhaps?) what goes around comes around

I beg to differ with you on this one.

The invasion of 74 clearly violated international law and the UN charter. Turkey initially had sympathy in the world in the 1st phase of their 'peace' operation. After the slaughter that was happening in Kerynia came out and after Turkey decided to push ahead with partition, and thus abandoning the re-establishement of constitutional order, Turkey lost any support that it had. The countles UN resolutions against Turkey should be enough proof of that.

[erolz]

Erol
I beg to differ with you on this one.

I am clearly not making my point very clearly here. It is also possible that it is not a very important or relvant point anyway.

What I am saying is that many GC will lecture on 'international law' and claim to care about the 'sublime importance' of international law (whatever that means and it certainly is not just to do with UN resolutions which actualy have no direct relationship to international law as far is does exist) )above all other considerations. I am merely suggesting that this position is more often than not a mere 'convience'. To back this suggestion up I pose the theoretical question that if there was a de facto settlement that gave the GC everything they wanted but was technicaly outside of 'international law' (again whatever that actually means) I suspect many of them would have little concern for the paramount nature of international law. If your problem is your lost properties then say that. By all means support your claim for a return using international law but do not pretend that all you care about is the sanctatiy of international law above everything else (unless that is really your issue).

Like I say maybe this point is not very interesting or important but this is point I am making and not that the Turkish actions of 74 were or were not 'illegal' - which I am happy to discuss and give my opions on, but not what I am talking about here.

[insan]

The invasion of 74 clearly violated international law and the UN charter. Turkey initially had sympathy in the world in the 1st phase of their 'peace' operation. After the slaughter that was happening in Kerynia came out and after Turkey decided to push ahead with partition, and thus abandoning the re-establishement of constitutional order, Turkey lost any support that it had. The countles UN resolutions against Turkey should be enough proof of that.

In my opinion the intervention of 74 didn't violate the international law and the UN charter. All UN resolutions call upon all parties to... etc etc... Turkey intervened to put a full stop this never ending bloody, stupid, meaningless story... The second phase of the operation; no matter whether you name it "peace operation" or "invasion" launched because there were still 25.000 or so TCs on South side of the Island under retaliation risk of the EOKA-B terrorists and some other extremists, angry ordinary GCs etc.. Turkey's intention was establishing the constitutional order on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation basis. Betwen the days of 1st and second phase of the intervention, Turkey proposed a federal solution and decisively insisted on it... Greek side obliged to accept Turkey's federation proposal and thenceforth negotiations based on bi-communal, bi-zonal federation.... However, neither of the relevant parties play the game honestly. They signed 3 or 4 agreements in 1975-79 period but none of them have been seriously implemented...


The faults of Greek side and Turkish side in the last 30 years:


1- The land belongs to each side should have been calculated and adjusted in 2-3 years time right after the 1975 summit. Turkish side should have given back the certain percentage land which didn't belong TCs.

2- The amount of land and properties which should be exchanged, should have been calculated and exchange process should have been completed in 4-5 years.

3- The Greek and Turkish soldiers should have been withdrawn in 4-5 years time and reduced to a number no more than 3000-4000.

4- The certain number of GC/TC refugees who wish to return to their homes should have been determined and let to return in 4-5 years time.

5- No settlers should have been imported to North, by Turkey...

6- A war criminals and compensations tribunal should have been established in order to investigating the claims, judging the suspects and fining the criminals.

7- A crowdy bi-communal rapproachment project group should have been formed in order to elliminate the resentment between the members of each community and produce some bi-communal projects which would bring the members of each community closer for a peaceful coexistence.


And then... Let them negotiate the structure and constitution of Federation of Cyprus... I'm sure under those circumstances Cypriots would have been able to find the best way to go...


God DAMN all of the so called leaders and politicians!!!

[insan]

And I'm sure the local responsibles of Cyprus tragedy; the so called leaders, politicians, cadres, priests , EOKA and TMT terrorists would have been sentenced to prison no less than 40 years...

but what did Cypriots do?

They applauded them and put their destroyers in power! A few scapegoats had been sufficient to delude them!

Would you laugh or cry at this?

[metecyp]

Turkey's intention was establishing the constitutional order on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation basis.

Do you really believe in this? Establish bizonal federation by forcing 200.000 people out of their homes? On top of that change the Greek names of villages, turn churches into mosques, import people to replace GCs? All these were necessary steps for a bizonal federation? Maybe you're right that Turkey's intention was to create a bizonal federation but its actions did not reflect its intention especially as the years passed by.

[insan]

Do you really believe in this?

At least it was Ecevit's government intention as long as he and his party were in power in Turkey, until the 1980 coup.

Establish bizonal federation by forcing 200.000 people out of their homes?

Of course this is very painfull for those who obliged to abandon their homes but don't forget that TCs also felt the same pain from 1963 until 1975... What else could be done to put a full stop to a 30 years lasted intercommunal violance which caused so many Cypriots death and mainly stopped the TCs development in 1963-74 period? Do you think that if TCs and Turkey hadn't resisted with retaliatory actions, Enosists would stop their terrorist actions against the ones who peacefully confronting against Enosis?

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On top of that change the Greek names of villages, turn churches into mosques, import people to replace GCs? All these were necessary steps for a bizonal federation? Maybe you're right that Turkey's intention was to create a bizonal federation but its actions did not reflect its intention especially as the years passed by.

And this is already what I've said above....

[metecyp]

What else could be done to put a full stop to a 30 years lasted intercommunal violance which caused so many Cypriots death and mainly stopped the TCs development in 1963-74 period?

It's easy to speculate after so many years but I believe that Turkey could have done what the US is doing in Iraq right now. I don't agree with what the US is doing in Iraq right now, but at least the US changed the regime in Iraq without forcing people out of their homes, without changing mosques into churches and so on.