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Can Greeks live with Turks ???

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

will there ever be a resolve between the two sides

Poll ended at Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:46 pm

Yes
19
61%
No
12
39%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby Kikapu » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:55 pm

zan wrote:
Zan,

Well come back my friend. I thought you were either dead or were in Hawaii, in the arms of bunch of "Hula Girls" with their seductive bodies, and in your case, it would have meant the same thing...

Zan, is it not true, that you left cyprus, when you were 4 years old. Would you please remind us, exactly what year that was.

I was 8 years old in 1963 when the "shit hit the fan", and taken into detention as a "Prisoner of War" for a week, with the rest of my family. We were not murdered, when about 700 of TC's were held.

No women were raped.

No man were executed.

No ill treatment by our GC guards.

We were not starved.

Don't get me wrong, it was not a week at Disneyland, but also far from being in the hands of "Butchers" and mistreatment beyond imagination.

Like to hear your story actually Zan, to see if your detention camp "prison" was worst than ours.??


Before I start can I say to you that not all Jews went to Auschwitz.


What do you want to read Kikapu? Do you want me to tell you a worse story than yours so that you can say that is what makes me feel the way I do. Well Birkibrisli had it worse than you and he is more pro unification than you could ever be but that is not the point. My story is that I could not remember much about the time until about six years ago. You have to forgive me about time scales because I have no sense of time and after my experience of six years ago I think I can blame that part to the Cyprus problem also.
I will start by asking you if you have ever read any other accounts of what happened to the TCs in that period and why you have chosen your version of events as the marker for all TCs. Are you telling me that nothing of what has been accounted is true????



Zan,

I have heard other stories, and not very nice one's either. I hate to do this again, but I did write all these down as "my story" and if you have not read it, here is the link http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus6336- ... ostdays=0& on July 3rd post.

Well of course others have their stories, and probably worse than mine, but when someone has ZERO experience (VP) and comes to tell us how bad 1963 was, I have a hard time, accepting that, as fact and not propaganda. Call me old fashion, but stories do get exaggerated each time it passes along a long line of people, who were never there in 1963, damn it.
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:23 pm

Thanks for that Kikapu and yes I did read it before but I still do not know what the point of your questioning me is. I was born in 1960 and was three when it all went off. I have told my story before but for a quick sum up of the whole thing, I did not remember much. Well, I thought I did not until a few years ago when I had a nervous breakdown and horrific dreams that I could not fathom out. The doctors were absolutely useless and I am glad I still had the sense of mind to ask questions. I did not really want to ask my mum and sisters because they would worry like mad but in the end I had no choice. When I asked my mum about the things I could see in my dreams, she said they are not dreams but real events. You may think them small fry compared to some because the Turkish sector of Lefcosa was not taken by the GCs but gunfire and tracer bullets flying over our house in the dark of night. The fear of what happened on Bloody Christmas. The screams and tears of my Mother and sisters. The visit to the house where those children and their mother were machine gunned in the bath all added up. I could feel my feet sticking to the blooded floor in that house and the sweet smell of blood and the remains of peoples' skulls on walls and ceilings. The graphic photos on the wall as you entered, all forgotten but stored with unease in a child’s mind that had no way of understanding what it was all about. The fear of the dark is greater than seeing the monsters face.



Having said all of that I feel I have gotten rid of most of my ghosts but am always worried what might come up in the next forty years. What else is still in there?


That is my story and a few more do exist that I am still finding out about my family like in the case of my brother in-laws sister that nearly died from starvation and infection from one of those camps you are talking about. Doctor Kucuk said that she would not live but she did, all be it with mental scars.


These are not the reasons for my belief that partition is the answer though. If you met me you would find I am about the most practical person you will know and that is what drives me. I am fed up with fairy stories about how man should get on and am more at home with how man really is. Add the political animal into that and there is only one way to go. Simple, practical and reasonable IMHO. Dreams...yeah I have them too but my dream is that people will wake up and stop thinking that there will be a magic formular that will fix all this. Partition, time and forgetting what it was all about, that is the key? There is a shorter route.......the Kifeas way. Let the Turks arm us and then move out. Last man standing?
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Postby miltiades » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:21 pm

Zan , Im really sorry that as a toddler you experienced such horrific , sadistic events as well as your mother and members of your family.The people who committed these atrocities are inhumane fanatics and no Cypriot can justify or in any way excuse such barbarities. As a Cypriot , I feel ashamed that amongst us there are such horrid people.

Believe me however that there are similar stories recalled by G/Cs just as vile and horrid. Let us hope that all is behind us now and as Cypriots we move ahead for a peaceful solution.
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:39 pm

miltiades wrote:Zan , Im really sorry that as a toddler you experienced such horrific , sadistic events as well as your mother and members of your family.The people who committed these atrocities are inhumane fanatics and no Cypriot can justify or in any way excuse such barbarities. As a Cypriot , I feel ashamed that amongst us there are such horrid people.

Believe me however that there are similar stories recalled by G/Cs just as vile and horrid. Let us hope that all is behind us now and as Cypriots we move ahead for a peaceful solution.


Thank you Miltiades.


I have no doubt what so ever that others as well as GCs experienced these awful events but as I said, I try to be practical about the whole Cyprob. I have also been married twice and although the first was a big mistake, I did all I could to make it work and it broke my heart. After a couple of years of tooing and throwing I realised that it was not going to work so I pulled away. I can tell you that that period was a very traumatic episode also but I always feel better that I did the practical thing. I did not see my daughter for eight years but now we get on fantastically because she convinced her mum to let me see her when she was just ten years old. She is now 24.
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Postby free_cyprus » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:53 pm

turkey greece and britain planed and achieved their goal of dividing the island of cyprus. before the 1950s it was unheard of in cyprus that turkish speaking and greek speaking cypriots murdered each other made war against each other. enter grivas enter gritain enter greece and turkey and you have alll kinds of confusions resulting in the zurich agreement that benefited everyone except the cypriots. we were left empty handed we sold our island to turkey greece and britain.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:34 pm

zan wrote:Thanks for that Kikapu and yes I did read it before but I still do not know what the point of your questioning me is. I was born in 1960 and was three when it all went off. I have told my story before but for a quick sum up of the whole thing, I did not remember much. Well, I thought I did not until a few years ago when I had a nervous breakdown and horrific dreams that I could not fathom out. The doctors were absolutely useless and I am glad I still had the sense of mind to ask questions. I did not really want to ask my mum and sisters because they would worry like mad but in the end I had no choice. When I asked my mum about the things I could see in my dreams, she said they are not dreams but real events. You may think them small fry compared to some because the Turkish sector of Lefcosa was not taken by the GCs but gunfire and tracer bullets flying over our house in the dark of night. The fear of what happened on Bloody Christmas. The screams and tears of my Mother and sisters. The visit to the house where those children and their mother were machine gunned in the bath all added up. I could feel my feet sticking to the blooded floor in that house and the sweet smell of blood and the remains of peoples' skulls on walls and ceilings. The graphic photos on the wall as you entered, all forgotten but stored with unease in a child’s mind that had no way of understanding what it was all about. The fear of the dark is greater than seeing the monsters face.



Having said all of that I feel I have gotten rid of most of my ghosts but am always worried what might come up in the next forty years. What else is still in there?


That is my story and a few more do exist that I am still finding out about my family like in the case of my brother in-laws sister that nearly died from starvation and infection from one of those camps you are talking about. Doctor Kucuk said that she would not live but she did, all be it with mental scars.


These are not the reasons for my belief that partition is the answer though. If you met me you would find I am about the most practical person you will know and that is what drives me. I am fed up with fairy stories about how man should get on and am more at home with how man really is. Add the political animal into that and there is only one way to go. Simple, practical and reasonable IMHO. Dreams...yeah I have them too but my dream is that people will wake up and stop thinking that there will be a magic formular that will fix all this. Partition, time and forgetting what it was all about, that is the key? There is a shorter route.......the Kifeas way. Let the Turks arm us and then move out. Last man standing?


Zan,

Thank you for your story. I wish I had a chance to have read it before. I'm really sorry that it had affected you so much. I guess, at 3 years old, all we want out of life is food and security, and I think, your security was very much disrupted. For me at 8 years old, I guess it was all a bit of "adventure" I guess.

I don't know what was worse, you being 3 years old in 1963, or me at 8. I remember everything, but never had fear then or since. As I wrote in "my story", the family that was gunned down in cold blood, while hiding in the bath tub is very vivid to me. I remember the stories and the photo of the bodies in the tub, with blood stained walls.

May I ask, why did your family even wanted to go and visit this house, and take you along also. Secondly, I thought this event took place what was to become South of the "Green Line". I don't know, I'm just asking. At times, I thought this event took close to my school, in Kucuk Kaymakli, and every time this bath tub murders come to my head, now and again, I tend to focus on a particular house, that was near my school. Of course, it probably wasn't.

If you look around Europe, other nations have had hundreds times worse than we did in Cyprus, and today, thanks to the establishment of the UN, NATO and EU, people have moved on, and what was once enemies, are now friends and going strong. Are we (GC's & TC's) genetically inferior to the other nations, that we cannot put the past to where it belongs, and move forward as a United Cyprus. This is the part that is most puzzling to me. Let me be totally sincere here and say, I do not dislike VP what so ever. It is his "mind made up mode" that I fight with all the time, and not VP, as a fellow TC brother. I look for a greater horizon for us all, but I see him wanting to remain a isolationist to retain the "Pure Turkishness", within closed walls.

Anyway, you may think a "clean break" is the best way to solve our problems with the GC's. Ever tried to do a "clean break" in any kind of relationship, be it be family or friends.? Not very easily done, and if we go for a Partition, the GC's are not going to go anywhere. There never be peace and quiet unless they too, can have what they want. We only need to look at Israel and Palestine, to see our future. Let's not go down the the same road, as they have taken, which is as Chris Rea sings the song " Road to Hell".
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:04 pm

Kikapu


I can’t remember where the house is exactly but I will find out although every time I think about doing some research into it I always think I don’t want to know. I have been told by my mother that it was an open house for all to visit and to see what those murdering Greeks did to us, if you get what I mean. As to why my mother took me to the house in the first place…..I have not asked her that question directly so as not to make her feel guilty about the whole thing but I did ask my sister and she said that that is what happened in those days? That and the fact that she was scared to leave us anywhere alone.



As for clean brakes with family…….I gave the example of that to miltiades that which I hope you have read after this post.
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Postby T_C » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:35 pm

The house has been turned into a museum. If I'm not wrong its in a place that is (or used to be) called Kumsal, Nicosia. I've been there loads of times.

I dont know if hes still alive but there was this old man who used to be in there most of the time who was a witness to what happened in there.
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Postby humanist » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:37 pm

Good to have you back soldier, Zan,

and on a more serios note I am really sorry to hear that as a child you have had to experience something as horific as that. My apologies to you personally adn your mother and sisters. Like Liltiades I would say that is not Cypriot like at all and I am ashamed that Cypriots like that do exist. I appreciate the practicality of who you are as am the opposit and sometimes I want to be practical, unfortunately 4 years ago I experienced something in my life that just like you the doctors were totally useless and if it was not for the prayers and my belief in the power of God/ Universe and lots of complimentary therapies I don't think I would be walking today. So as a not practical person I believe that love is the answer and as two people on this Island for no fault of our own we have not been able to love one another.

Zan, my concern is that if we look at Israel and Palestine we will have the same future for partition, because the only reason Greek Speaking Cypriots have not reacted like the Palestinians is because they have hope that one day they will return to their homeland. However, that is not to take away from your argument and reasons for wanting partition. But wouldn't it be nice if we as Cypriots acheved the impossible, imagine in three generations all Cypriots living together, greek speaking and turkish speaking cypriots sharing all of cyprus, in peace and harmony.
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Postby zan » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:07 pm

There can also be a harmonious split in this infinite universe Humanist. We can agree to disagree. It does not have to be a Lebanon and Israel. WE can show them the way to live apart.
I know that it sounds cynical Humanist but it just goes to show that the cup can be half full no matter which way you look at it. I am not heading towards hell by choosing my path but to an alternative heaven.
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