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Threat of coup d'etat in Turkey

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Postby BirKibrisli » Tue May 01, 2007 6:36 am

Murataga wrote:@Bir-

A very simplistic analysis...Come on,Zan,you can do better than that.
I am not suggesting the abolishing of the Turkish army for god's sake...
I am saying the military should stay out of the Presidential election process so that Turkish democracy has a chance to flourish...

People learn to practice democracy by making mistakes.What if they elect Gul as President?He cannot change the Constitution which made him President even if he wanted to.And if people are so unhappy they can vote the AKP out of government in November,and make Gul just a figurehead...That is democracy in action...


Just like people of Germany voted out Adolf Hitler of the Nazi Party after their mistakes and the people of Iran voted out Ayatollah Khomeini after their mistakes right? You are confusing these people as ordinary political figures that respect democracy and only have different opinions, in say how much money should be spent on education as opposed to state sponsored sport activities. No, these people differ in ideology and set out on a mission that intends to overrun the democratic and secular nature of the Republic. Millions have shown that they do not want them to elect the President, yet they are refusing to leave their posts. But more importantly, they are carrying out an unconstitutional Presidential election campaign!

Many are making the very big mistake of interpreting democracy as a system that allows anyone to do whatever he/she wishes as long as they are elected. That is not democracy. Democracy is "responsible" freedom where some law enforcement guarantees that the elected official is not permitted to alter the very democratic princlipals that allowed him to get there in the first place.

I agree with what you are saying that democracy should flourish. However, democracy needs to be protected and not allowed for people that oppose it to be its manupilator aswell.


Selam,Murataga...

I don't know much about the circumstances which brought the Ayatollah to power in Iran,but as for Hitler...he was able to wrestle total power because both the military and the people were supporting him at the time...And they kept supporting him till the bitter end really...Things are differrent in Turkey...The military and the majority of the people are against Erdogan,Gul and their islamist policies (if there are any,as they say they have no hidden agenda)...There is no danger that they can change the constitution even if they controled the presidency,the Prime Ministership and the Speakership of the House...No way...

So why not let them show us how democratic they really are?
You are wrong when you say the election process is not democratic.It is exactly the process used to elect Ozal,Demirel and Sezer in the past 3 elections.Nobody demanded the presence of 367 MPs to officially open the proceedings then.Why now???gul can and should be allowed to be elected as President in the 3rd round when the votes required is the simple majority of those present.Gul commands more than 350 votes in this election which is far higher than the votes which elected the other 3 I mentioned...come on...You can't change the rules of the game midway, because your side is not winning... :evil:
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Postby BirKibrisli » Tue May 01, 2007 6:52 am

Murataga wrote:@Bir-

The biggest mistake Ataturk made was to try to impose his reforms from the top,by the force of arms


"Impose" is the word you choose?.. "Impose" secularity, civil rights, democracy and human rights to a people gone through 300 years of wars, hunger, sickness, poverty, unmatched suppression by religious dogmas and sharia, that have lived since the begining of time as the subjects of a ruling dynasty, with a literacy rate less than 1.7%....

You are asking why a paralyzed patient in a coma did not ask for help and calling his treatment as "imposed".

The Turkish people welcomed the reforms and to this very day treasure them. I`ve clearly explained how AKP came to power in my previous post, underlining that this result is not an implication that the Turkish people are against the reforms that turned them into individuals from being subjects of a fossilized regime. There was and still is resistance from religious fundamentalists that are in the business of turning Turkey into Iran. Unfortunately, this is a consequence of Turkey`s history, geography, and vulnerabilities.


I guess i couldn't think of another word,Murataga...
"Impose" is the right word to use when it involves telling people how they will live their lives without consulting them first...You know I have no problems with Ataturk's reforms...it is the way it was carried out that I question.He obviously thought or intrinsically felt he had to act straight away.On hindsight we can say that given the esteem and respect the people had for him overall,he probably didn't need to act so hastily.He could've taken his time to explain to people why what he proposed was in their best interest...we are seeing the result of Ataturk's haste now.At least half the poplulation did not absorb the motivation behind the reforms,hence were easily manipulated by the nationalists and the islamists in turn,to achieve their political ends...
My fear is that Turks do not have the luxury of postponing democracy whenever things seem to go against Ataturk's vision ( I am avoiding the word Kemalism,because the ideology which passes as kemalism has nothing to do with Ataturk's vision).The world is moving forward at neckbreaking speed and Turkey will be left behind if she tries to encase Kemalism in concrete...The sooner full democracy is achieved in Turkey the sooner Turkey will join the EU and the sooner we will have a solution in Cyprus...
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Postby miltiades » Tue May 01, 2007 7:29 am

Other democratic nations have armies too , why doesn't the army in the UK for instance take over and reverse some of the policies carried out by successive governments , more so with immigration policies that the majority of people in the UK are sick and tired of . Is it only the Turkish army that can brush aside democratically elected governments in order that they "protect" or is it impose their will. Democracy works on the principle that the people freely vote and that the government governs until the next election. Unpopular government decisions can be challenged by the courts no doubt available in Turkey too .
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Postby zan » Tue May 01, 2007 9:22 am

miltiades wrote:Other democratic nations have armies too , why doesn't the army in the UK for instance take over and reverse some of the policies carried out by successive governments , more so with immigration policies that the majority of people in the UK are sick and tired of . Is it only the Turkish army that can brush aside democratically elected governments in order that they "protect" or is it impose their will. Democracy works on the principle that the people freely vote and that the government governs until the next election. Unpopular government decisions can be challenged by the courts no doubt available in Turkey too .



Because as Murataga said the situation is clearly different. Why aren't you guys screaming as loud for religion to be taken out 9of the equation as well....At the same time. Aren't they just as dangerous. What if, as the alternative to your general perception of democracy, the balance that has been achieved between government, religion and the army be just that, an alternative. You seem to be working on a single model that you cannot steer away from. Lets see if the people and the army does not get up in arms, in the UK, if ever religion was allowed to take a firm grip of decision making. In Turkey they are spending public money on building mosques and promoting religion.
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue May 01, 2007 7:05 pm

as i said elsewhere :

n comparison to the last elections in turkey - which had a more serious tone , the coming one are rediculous.

erdogans rule had a number of success when it comes to the economy. concequently the main opposition party CHP, cannot attack him on that. so (seeking also the support of the generals) they are reducing the serious problems of the turkish people face to whether the wife of the president wears a head scarf or not. this absurd bc :

1. turkey is not as secularist as turks want to believe
2. AKP doesnot pose an islamic danger to turkey. even in the absence of an army AKP wouldnt turn turkey into an islamic-iran type regime. reasons is : it against their interests
3. it is the armys actions after 1980 (and before ) that created - albeit unintentionally- the AKP.
4. the absurd argument from the army and the rest of "secularists" that if the presidency goes to the AKP this is undemocratic , shows their short memory. who imposed the current constitution on the turkish people , and now have no shame and call it "undemocratic" ? how can they blame AKP for a voting system they themselves forced on the people ?

democracy is not restricted to the so-called secularism. democracy is to accept the rules of the game both when you win and loose. democracy accepts no where interventions from armies...these parts of democracy some people tend to forget..... :roll:

the problem is, and never was the "islamic danger" , or "danger against the laicist state" . problem is that AKP supports different interests , and by doing that those excluded are not satisfied. in order to change that they might be stupid enough to encourage an army intervention. it is and has always been a matter of interests and power.
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Postby karma » Tue May 01, 2007 8:05 pm

cypezokyli wrote:democracy is not restricted to the so-called secularism. democracy is to accept the rules of the game both when you win and loose. democracy accepts no where interventions from armies...these parts of democracy some people tend to forget..... :roll:

the problem is, and never was the "islamic danger" , or "danger against the laicist state" . problem is that AKP supports different interests , and by doing that those excluded are not satisfied. in order to change that they might be stupid enough to encourage an army intervention. it is and has always been a matter of interests and power.


70% of people living in Turkey dont agree with u, the Islamic Danger is already there, at the door..and next time when u visit Turkey , ur wife may need to wear head scarf.. :(
I suggest u to read wht happened in Iran...
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Postby cypezokyli » Wed May 02, 2007 12:15 am

karma wrote:
cypezokyli wrote:democracy is not restricted to the so-called secularism. democracy is to accept the rules of the game both when you win and loose. democracy accepts no where interventions from armies...these parts of democracy some people tend to forget..... :roll:

the problem is, and never was the "islamic danger" , or "danger against the laicist state" . problem is that AKP supports different interests , and by doing that those excluded are not satisfied. in order to change that they might be stupid enough to encourage an army intervention. it is and has always been a matter of interests and power.


70% of people living in Turkey dont agree with u, the Islamic Danger is already there, at the door..and next time when u visit Turkey , ur wife may need to wear head scarf.. :(
I suggest u to read wht happened in Iran...


do you seriously compare iran with turkey ? !!!! :shock:
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Postby Nikephoros » Wed May 02, 2007 4:25 am

Do you think in TRNC there will be violent deaths from the sectarian Kemalist vs. Islamist atmosphere?

Turks and Turkish Cypriots do not expect to blame such deaths on Greeks and get away with it. If that is your plans, make new ones right now. You can kill each other all you want, just stop using these deaths to make Greeks look bad. It is not right.
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Postby miltiades » Wed May 02, 2007 5:55 am

zan wrote:
miltiades wrote:Other democratic nations have armies too , why doesn't the army in the UK for instance take over and reverse some of the policies carried out by successive governments , more so with immigration policies that the majority of people in the UK are sick and tired of . Is it only the Turkish army that can brush aside democratically elected governments in order that they "protect" or is it impose their will. Democracy works on the principle that the people freely vote and that the government governs until the next election. Unpopular government decisions can be challenged by the courts no doubt available in Turkey too .



Because as Murataga said the situation is clearly different. Why aren't you guys screaming as loud for religion to be taken out 9of the equation as well....At the same time. Aren't they just as dangerous. What if, as the alternative to your general perception of democracy, the balance that has been achieved between government, religion and the army be just that, an alternative. You seem to be working on a single model that you cannot steer away from. Lets see if the people and the army does not get up in arms, in the UK, if ever religion was allowed to take a firm grip of decision making. In Turkey they are spending public money on building mosques and promoting religion.


DEMOCRACY is not perceived as having varying degrees of government of the people elected by the people.To the best of my knowledge one doesn't interpret which branch of democracy to follow unlike of course religion.
As you perhaps know the Islamists in the UK are demanding sharia law and in many cases practise this sick ideology. Mostly people from countries where illiteracy is at a very high level , Pakistan , Bangladesh , India , Africa and many more. As far as I know there is but one model of democracy as practised in all democratic nations.The army is the servant of the government and the government serves the people. Governments are changed by the people NOT THE ARMY. I agree with the general points raised that Turkey must never go down the "Islamic fundamental road " but do not accept that democracy must be sacrificed in the process.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed May 02, 2007 6:12 am

The constitutional court has annuled the voting in the first round of Turkish presidential elections...They agreed with the opposition CHP party that 367 mps must be in the chamber before the session can begin...

Make no mistake about it...This is a coup d'etat organised by the military and the nationalist elite/deep state whatever...but without putting the tanks in the street.Established interests of the deep state has been preserved,and the Turkish democracy has been mortally wounded today...It is a sad day for Turkey...and all who believe in full parliamentary democracy... :evil:
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