The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Threat of coup d'etat in Turkey

Everything related to politics in Cyprus and the rest of the world.

Postby shahmaran » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:56 am

Birkibrisli wrote:Turkey is not under threat from Islamic fundamentalism,and the military should stay out of this power struggle between tthe opposing capitalist forces,and let the process of natural selection takes its place.Turkish democracy will come out stronger if this is allowed to happen...


So what, are we just meant to sit around and wait for "natural selection to take its place" until the fundamentalist section "educate" themselves in order to stop holding back the modern people of Turkey and allow us to move on?

I don't think so...
User avatar
shahmaran
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 5461
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: In conflict

Postby zan » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:38 am

Murataga wrote:Certain aspects of the Turkish history, sociology and circumstances need to be well-understood before preaching about “democracy”, because the political analysis of countries is not as simple as people try to make it sound here. Although Turks are “generally” proud of their Ottoman heritage they are also resentful of some of its aspects for very legitimate reasons. The Ottoman dynasty in their last 2- 3 hundred years have been an extremely back warded, corrupt and fossilized regime that looked upon Turks (yes you read it correctly, Turks) as a detested peasant class in their own land. But much more importantly, in their decline and dissolution era, the Ottomans used religious fundamentalism as a tool to control and suppress the society. Unfortunately, this religious abuse was practiced to such extent that certain segments of the society (generally the lower class) still to this day carries vulnerabilities to religious perversion. Erdogan`s political party (AKP) is one of the parties that have taken advantage of this vulnerability to gain political merit in the elections. AKP opposes the very credentials which are conscripted in the constitution such as secularity, equality of men and woman, civil rights of the western world. However, the vulnerable segment of the society does not comprise a sufficient majority to get a party to be the majority of the parliament. So, Erdogan said to the people that they have “changed” and represent the moderate segment aswell in addition to the fundamentalists. Turkish people have bitterly found out that during the past 4 years that this was a lie.

AKP in a vacuum of political presence of any charismatic party has sweeped the votes in the last election by simply lying to the people that they have “changed”. Unfortunately, their administration proved beyond any doubt that they have not changed and used the democratic pathway as a stepping stone to alter the democratic constitution. So it is not political ideas, which of course every political party is entitled to have, that is being challenged, it is the very ideology that want to blast the constitution and foundations of the modern Republic. All should be careful in distibguishing the two.

Today we are witnessing history in Turkey: crowds in the order of millions, unmatched in the history of the Republic, have protested and showed that the people feel betrayed and they do not want this parliament to elect the president. All opposition parties have been calling on AKP to do the same. People are afraid and rightfully so, for the Presidency, although not as active as the prime minister, is the highest ranked state post in the country that is about to be occupied by a religious fundamentalist who is a sworn enemy of the modern Republic. Furthermore, the president generally acts as an ombudsman and is a counterbalance to the prime minister and this has been respected by all until in the present time where AKP is enforcing its candidate against the will of the people.

Unfortunately, AKP has shown itself to be shameless and irrespective of the will of society. Given their deeds, the occupation of the Presidential post is far more dangerous than can be imagined for Turkish democracy and secularism.

They have lied to the people that they have changed when all they did during their term was to rty to alter the democratic and western credentials of the state.

They have even refused to share the presidential candidate’s name with the public until the very last moment, and turned the Presidential election to the appointment of a party official where it should have been a democratic process based on consensus.

But above any of these, they do not hold the sufficient majority to elect the president in the parliament. Yet they are carrying out the election!!! This is illegal according to Turkey`s constitution. This is unheard of and someone has to step in, for this is an invasion of the state and a threat to the Republic. The military is obliged in any country in the world to act in situations in which the government is being invaded. Fortunately, the Supreme Court is holding a special session regarding the Presidential election held in the parliament and will announce a decision this week (99.9 % declaring that the Presidential election is null). So, no one needs to worry about the strength of democracy in Turkey, for its system is strong in preserving it, and its people have shown by the millions how they passionately treasure it. The Turkish people is declaring to the world in a democratic and peaceful way that they do not want their Republic to be invaded by religious fundamentalists. Yet, these fundamentalists are refusing to give up their posts. I went to college in Turkey; I hardly believe that there exists any other nation in the world that loves its soldier and identifies with him so much as Turks do. The Army did not threat with a coup d`etat. They have notified the public that they are prepared to carry out their duty to preserve the democracy, secularity and constitution of the Republic against those that resist constitutional rulings of the Supreme Court and the will of the people. No one should confuse the two.


Well said Murataga. There are people in the whole of the region not to mention else where that are trying to destabilize Turkey and split her up and they are supposed to stand by and wait for natural selection to sort things out. Perhaps we should let the country be taken over by religion. Not Islam but the harri Krishna brigade.
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby BirKibrisli » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:48 am

zan wrote:
Murataga wrote:Certain aspects of the Turkish history, sociology and circumstances need to be well-understood before preaching about “democracy”, because the political analysis of countries is not as simple as people try to make it sound here. Although Turks are “generally” proud of their Ottoman heritage they are also resentful of some of its aspects for very legitimate reasons. The Ottoman dynasty in their last 2- 3 hundred years have been an extremely back warded, corrupt and fossilized regime that looked upon Turks (yes you read it correctly, Turks) as a detested peasant class in their own land. But much more importantly, in their decline and dissolution era, the Ottomans used religious fundamentalism as a tool to control and suppress the society. Unfortunately, this religious abuse was practiced to such extent that certain segments of the society (generally the lower class) still to this day carries vulnerabilities to religious perversion. Erdogan`s political party (AKP) is one of the parties that have taken advantage of this vulnerability to gain political merit in the elections. AKP opposes the very credentials which are conscripted in the constitution such as secularity, equality of men and woman, civil rights of the western world. However, the vulnerable segment of the society does not comprise a sufficient majority to get a party to be the majority of the parliament. So, Erdogan said to the people that they have “changed” and represent the moderate segment aswell in addition to the fundamentalists. Turkish people have bitterly found out that during the past 4 years that this was a lie.

AKP in a vacuum of political presence of any charismatic party has sweeped the votes in the last election by simply lying to the people that they have “changed”. Unfortunately, their administration proved beyond any doubt that they have not changed and used the democratic pathway as a stepping stone to alter the democratic constitution. So it is not political ideas, which of course every political party is entitled to have, that is being challenged, it is the very ideology that want to blast the constitution and foundations of the modern Republic. All should be careful in distibguishing the two.

Today we are witnessing history in Turkey: crowds in the order of millions, unmatched in the history of the Republic, have protested and showed that the people feel betrayed and they do not want this parliament to elect the president. All opposition parties have been calling on AKP to do the same. People are afraid and rightfully so, for the Presidency, although not as active as the prime minister, is the highest ranked state post in the country that is about to be occupied by a religious fundamentalist who is a sworn enemy of the modern Republic. Furthermore, the president generally acts as an ombudsman and is a counterbalance to the prime minister and this has been respected by all until in the present time where AKP is enforcing its candidate against the will of the people.

Unfortunately, AKP has shown itself to be shameless and irrespective of the will of society. Given their deeds, the occupation of the Presidential post is far more dangerous than can be imagined for Turkish democracy and secularism.

They have lied to the people that they have changed when all they did during their term was to rty to alter the democratic and western credentials of the state.

They have even refused to share the presidential candidate’s name with the public until the very last moment, and turned the Presidential election to the appointment of a party official where it should have been a democratic process based on consensus.

But above any of these, they do not hold the sufficient majority to elect the president in the parliament. Yet they are carrying out the election!!! This is illegal according to Turkey`s constitution. This is unheard of and someone has to step in, for this is an invasion of the state and a threat to the Republic. The military is obliged in any country in the world to act in situations in which the government is being invaded. Fortunately, the Supreme Court is holding a special session regarding the Presidential election held in the parliament and will announce a decision this week (99.9 % declaring that the Presidential election is null). So, no one needs to worry about the strength of democracy in Turkey, for its system is strong in preserving it, and its people have shown by the millions how they passionately treasure it. The Turkish people is declaring to the world in a democratic and peaceful way that they do not want their Republic to be invaded by religious fundamentalists. Yet, these fundamentalists are refusing to give up their posts. I went to college in Turkey; I hardly believe that there exists any other nation in the world that loves its soldier and identifies with him so much as Turks do. The Army did not threat with a coup d`etat. They have notified the public that they are prepared to carry out their duty to preserve the democracy, secularity and constitution of the Republic against those that resist constitutional rulings of the Supreme Court and the will of the people. No one should confuse the two.


Well said Murataga. There are people in the whole of the region not to mention else where that are trying to destabilize Turkey and split her up and they are supposed to stand by and wait for natural selection to sort things out. Perhaps we should let the country be taken over by religion. Not Islam but the harri Krishna brigade.


I know you are having a go at me,Zan,but I don't mind.And you are not wrong...if Turkey could turn Buddhist overnight,it would be the best thing that can happen...Let me spell it our again...The military is about preserving its hold on power and helping the "nationalist" capital against the 'Islamist" capital...The fundamentalist threat is only an excuse to make limiting the democratic process acceptable to the masses inside and the global powers outside... :evil:
User avatar
BirKibrisli
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Australia

Postby BirKibrisli » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:53 am

shahmaran wrote:
Birkibrisli wrote:Turkey is not under threat from Islamic fundamentalism,and the military should stay out of this power struggle between tthe opposing capitalist forces,and let the process of natural selection takes its place.Turkish democracy will come out stronger if this is allowed to happen...


So what, are we just meant to sit around and wait for "natural selection to take its place" until the fundamentalist section "educate" themselves in order to stop holding back the modern people of Turkey and allow us to move on?

I don't think so...


The biggest mistake Ataturk made was to try to impose his reforms from the top,by the force of arms...The military is just repeating that mistake of thinking they can impose their will on the public by force...That is fine as long as you call a spade a spade and don't pretend that you are a democratic state worthy of joining other democratic states in the EU...
User avatar
BirKibrisli
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Australia

Postby BirKibrisli » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:00 am

karma wrote:
Birkibrisli wrote:You summed up Turkey pretty well,karma...

You forgot to say that women can become chief Justices at the highest court in the land...and some beat up their husbands too... :lol:

Why don't you come and visit me in Australia,karma...It is almost another planet! :lol:


thanks
I will come as soon as possible, we have already planned a tavla/tavli champinoship, remember??
I want my room next to Pyro's :wink:


Great news,karma...We will have plenty of time to discuss whether Turkey is under fundamentalist islamic threat or not...I believe the "nationalist" movement and their capital are too strong for Turkey to ever face a serious threat...Also the Turkish media is largely controlled by the right wing elitist capitalists who will never let Islam take a political hold in Turkey...It is time to give up looking towards the military every time the ruling class of "White Turks" feel they are about to lose their huge advantage in the running of the country...You can't have a little bit of democracy,like you can't be a little bit pregnant!.. :wink:
User avatar
BirKibrisli
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Australia

Postby karma » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:02 am

Birkibrisli wrote:I know you are having a go at me,Zan,but I don't mind.And you are not wrong...if Turkey could turn Buddhist overnight,it would be the best thing that can happen...Let me spell it our again...The military is about preserving its hold on power and helping the "nationalist" capital against the 'Islamist" capital...The fundamentalist threat is only an excuse to make limiting the democratic process acceptable to the masses inside and the global powers outside... :evil:


Unfortunately Turkey may turn Iran overnight very soon and U may be schocked BirKibrisli..
User avatar
karma
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 3096
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:31 pm

Postby karma » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:05 am

Birkibrisli wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
Birkibrisli wrote:Turkey is not under threat from Islamic fundamentalism,and the military should stay out of this power struggle between tthe opposing capitalist forces,and let the process of natural selection takes its place.Turkish democracy will come out stronger if this is allowed to happen...


So what, are we just meant to sit around and wait for "natural selection to take its place" until the fundamentalist section "educate" themselves in order to stop holding back the modern people of Turkey and allow us to move on?

I don't think so...


The biggest mistake Ataturk made was to try to impose his reforms from the top,by the force of arms...The military is just repeating that mistake of thinking they can impose their will on the public by force...That is fine as long as you call a spade a spade and don't pretend that you are a democratic state worthy of joining other democratic states in the EU...


did Ataturk have any other choice those years??
User avatar
karma
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 3096
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 8:31 pm

Postby zan » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:06 am

I have to go to work now Bir, late again!

I will just say this though. Attaturk did what he had to do after going through a massive war. The threat of further political unrest helped along by outside forces was still a very big threat at the time. All his good work could have been undone within a couple of years if he did not have the foresight to do what he did with the empowering of the army. Those threats are still prevalent in and around Turkey and the only way to stop them is with entry into the EU. Then the army can step down from their responsibilities and hand the power back. I see this as being the thinking behind what went on in Eastern Europe. They knew that once in the EU the borders would be fixed so there was a free for all and we all know what happened there. The army is doing a specific job as Attaturk designed and I don’t believe he was wrong. They have acted responsibly through out those years and every time they have had to act, the country has been handed back to democracy as soon as humanly possible. Your need to see a Turkey without the army is prematurely throwing the baby out with the bath
User avatar
zan
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 16213
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:55 pm

Postby BirKibrisli » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:28 am

karma wrote:
Birkibrisli wrote:
shahmaran wrote:
Birkibrisli wrote:Turkey is not under threat from Islamic fundamentalism,and the military should stay out of this power struggle between tthe opposing capitalist forces,and let the process of natural selection takes its place.Turkish democracy will come out stronger if this is allowed to happen...


So what, are we just meant to sit around and wait for "natural selection to take its place" until the fundamentalist section "educate" themselves in order to stop holding back the modern people of Turkey and allow us to move on?

I don't think so...


The biggest mistake Ataturk made was to try to impose his reforms from the top,by the force of arms...The military is just repeating that mistake of thinking they can impose their will on the public by force...That is fine as long as you call a spade a spade and don't pretend that you are a democratic state worthy of joining other democratic states in the EU...


did Ataturk have any other choice those years??


Obviously he didn't think so...With hindsight he probably would've taken it a bit slower,and give the people a chance to catch up with their education.
He probably knew he didn't have that much time... :(
User avatar
BirKibrisli
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Australia

Postby BirKibrisli » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:35 am

zan wrote:I have to go to work now Bir, late again!

I will just say this though. Attaturk did what he had to do after going through a massive war. The threat of further political unrest helped along by outside forces was still a very big threat at the time. All his good work could have been undone within a couple of years if he did not have the foresight to do what he did with the empowering of the army. Those threats are still prevalent in and around Turkey and the only way to stop them is with entry into the EU. Then the army can step down from their responsibilities and hand the power back. I see this as being the thinking behind what went on in Eastern Europe. They knew that once in the EU the borders would be fixed so there was a free for all and we all know what happened there. The army is doing a specific job as Attaturk designed and I don’t believe he was wrong. They have acted responsibly through out those years and every time they have had to act, the country has been handed back to democracy as soon as humanly possible. Your need to see a Turkey without the army is prematurely throwing the baby out with the bath


I never said I want to see Turkey without the Army.I said I want the military to have no part in the running of the democratic processes underway...Otherwise they can kiss goodbye to joining EU for another 50 years at least...I agree with you that Turkish secularism will be safest if Turkey is in the EU.The military and its supporters just have to realise that the conditions which existed in Ataturk's time do not exist now.Time to move on,and trust that the constitution which was put in place by Kenan Evren in the coup of the 80s is strong enough to safeguard country's secularism...
User avatar
BirKibrisli
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 6162
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:28 pm
Location: Australia

PreviousNext

Return to Politics and Elections

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest