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Cypriot protest outside 10 Downing Street

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Get Real! » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:39 pm

Bananiot wrote:Britain offered a large sum, in the billions, for the reconstruction of Famagusta. The other question "what should we have done"? For a start we should not have deceived the international community that we were the side that was interested to solve the issue on the basis of the Annan Plan.

Well go and complain to the two stooges Vasiliou and Klerides who got Cyprus mixed up in this shit in the first place that TP inherited.
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Postby utu » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:57 pm

Personally, GR, I think you're giving Glafkos Klerides the short end of the stick...
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:57 pm

Hello mikkie, how are you? You've been away from the forum for too long. I hope everything is well with you.

I am also very pessimistic about the future of Cyprus. The scenario you are describing is very real. The wily Klerides said before the referendum that if we do not accept the Plan we would fall down a ravine whose depth we never knew. I think there is a simple reason for our predicament. Papadopoulos was dead sure that the Turkish side would reject the Plan and gave positive signals all along that our side would accept it. His entire strategy fell apart (on our heads) when Talat and erdogan accepted the Plan. Until then, we were informed by our President that the positive signals that were coming out of Turkey were just a communication game by the Turks. This phrase "communication game" was very popular at the time but eventually it blinded our radars.

When Papadopoulos realised that he was losing the game he tried to manipulate the Turkish Cypriot opposition into postponing the referenda. Today, "Africa" discloses that in Bόrgenstock, Papadopoulos had six secret meetings with Serdar Denktash and three more in his residence at Strakka. Papadopoulos gambled heavily and he lost. Had he understood earlier the changes that were happening in Turkey he would have agreed with Denktas, who was the first to reject the Plan and asked for talks on a new basis. Denktash offered Famagusta to Papadopoulos, had he agreed back in April 2003. Yet, Papadopoulos was sure that he would discredit Denktash by swearing alliance to the Annan Plan process which Denktash would reject for sure. When it finally downed on him that Turkey was playing a different game it was too late. Thus he embarked on secret diplomacy with the Turkish Cypriot nationalists and hard liners in order to save the day. In a nutshell, he failed miserably and has taken Cyprus with him, to the bottom of the ravine.
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Postby utu » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:04 pm

Bananiot wrote:Hello mikkie, how are you? You've been away from the forum for too long. I hope everything is well with you.

I am also very pessimistic about the future of Cyprus. The scenario you are describing is very real. The wily Klerides said before the referendum that if we do not accept the Plan we would fall down a ravine whose depth we never knew. I think there is a simple reason for our predicament. Papadopoulos was dead sure that the Turkish side would reject the Plan and gave positive signals all along that our side would accept it. His entire strategy fell apart (on our heads) when Talat and erdogan accepted the Plan. Until then, we were informed by our President that the positive signals that were coming out of Turkey were just a communication game by the Turks. This phrase "communication game" was very popular at the time but eventually it blinded our radars.

When Papadopoulos realised that he was losing the game he tried to manipulate the Turkish Cypriot opposition into postponing the referenda. Today, "Africa" discloses that in Bόrgenstock, Papadopoulos had six secret meetings with Serdar Denktash and three more in his residence at Strakka. Papadopoulos gambled heavily and he lost. Had he understood earlier the changes that were happening in Turkey he would have agreed with Denktas, who was the first to reject the Plan and asked for talks on a new basis. Denktash offered Famagusta to Papadopoulos, had he agreed back in April 2003. Yet, Papadopoulos was sure that he would discredit Denktash by swearing alliance to the Annan Plan process which Denktash would reject for sure. When it finally downed on him that Turkey was playing a different game it was too late. Thus he embarked on secret diplomacy with the Turkish Cypriot nationalists and hard liners in order to save the day. In a nutshell, he failed miserably and has taken Cyprus with him, to the bottom of the ravine.


If the above is true, then Tassos Papadopoulous can give Machivelli a run for his money. This is the kind of stuff you would normally read about in a Tom Clancy novel.
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Postby Piratis » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:33 pm

Papadopoulos has never supported the Annan plan, I don't know where Bananiot imagines all that. Didn't you always accuse DIKO of being the "rejections"?

Cleredes and Vasiliou with their "good boy" policies had put us on a very deep position. Papadopoulos could not reverse 15 years of policies in just a few months.

Papadopoulos tried to get us out of Annan plan with the least possible damage. Yes, maybe he didn't manage to do it as good as he hoped for, but at least he tried.

The question is how we ended up with something like Annan plan? Didn't Cleredes/Vasiliou know that the Cypriot people would never accept anything like that? Their policies where so stupid that they gave the impression to the UN and some foreigners that we would accept anything that was given to us! So the UN concentrated in getting a "yes" vote from Turkey, and they kept giving more and more to the Turks in order to get their "yes" and less and less to us.

Yes, when a country says one day "we will accept whatever you offer us" and the next day "You know, we remembered we have some decency", of course some of those people will feel fooled. The question is who fooled them? The answer is: Cleredes and Vassiliou, who were saying one thing to them, and a different thing to us to get our votes. All Papadopoulos did was to finally try to support our own views.

Papadopoulos can not turn 15 years of foolish policies around, but he will do what he can. At least we avoided the worst in the last second, and I believe it is now becoming clearer to some abroad that GCs are not the fools that would accept just whatever they are given, even things against our human and democratic rights.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:05 pm

observer wrote:Daemon
In the Anan plan they was going to loose half of the bases

I'm fairly sure that the Anan Plan said nothing about the bases. UK offered to give up some land in one of the bases if Cyprus was reunited as a gesture/incentive towards a Yes Vote.

united Cyprus and as member of Europe could
be stronger and able to throw them out

Rather like a much bigger and more powerful united Spain, as a member of Europe, has thrown the British out of Gibraltar.

I sense a certain lack of depth in your understanding of Cyprus and the World.


You are not the only one believe me. :wink:
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Postby Get Real! » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:39 pm

Piratis wrote:Papadopoulos has never supported the Annan plan, I don't know where Bananiot imagines all that. Didn't you always accuse DIKO of being the "rejections"?.....

Another excellent post by Piratis! Well done.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:44 pm

Papadopoulos has sent a letter to the UN SG asking for urgent negotiations on the Annan plan without himself even having read the Anan Plan to form his own opinion. At least during Klerides era we had Denktash as our Guardian Angel rejecting everything and saving us from demise. A responsible President should first think that whatever we agree counts as a precedence.How could he ever even agree to start negotiations on such a plan? What would he expect to make it even bearable, some miracle? How more responsible was he compared to the previous 2 Presidents???

And who should we ever trust? Kasoulides who will bring us back the Anan Plan within a week, Papadopoulos who is driving us to hell, or Christofias who voted "a soft no to cement the yes", whatever that nonsense means.
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Postby phoenix » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:43 am

I don't think Gordon Brown was doing anything other than playing lip service to the Turks . . . especially regarding ending the "isolation" of the "TRNC" .. . .

After all every politically correct person will say they would like to see an end to this "isolation" . . . but it's the MEANS towards ending this isolation that are important and he has made NO mention of how this will be done . . .
He has only mentioned factors that are ALREADY in place . . . . because I think he does not really care to end it, just wants to be seen to be addressing it!

Ending the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots·

. Continued support for the Good Offices mission of the UN Secretary
General and his efforts to achieve a comprehensive and durable Cyprus
settlement.
· Work within the UN, the EU and bilaterally to promote direct
commercial, economic, political and cultural contacts between the UK,
the EU and the Turkish Cypriots.
· Maintaining high-level contacts with the Turkish Cypriot authorities.
· Continued help for “TRNC” authorities/universities in their attempts
to engage with the Bologna process.
· Upholding the right to representation of the Turkish Cypriots in the
European Parliament.
· Continued implementation of the UK’s bilateral programme aimed at
bringing Turkish Cypriots closer to Europe and preparing for a future
settlement. Support for the Commission’s efforts to implement projects
funded under the Aid regulation.



Original source:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/KFile/UKTur ... ip2007.pdf
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Postby ge0rg10 » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:15 am

someone said:
"Rather like a much bigger and more powerful united Spain, as a member of Europe, has thrown the British out of Gibraltar. "

"the Gibraltarians reject any claim and no political party or pressure group in Gibraltar supports union with Spain. In a referendum in 2002 the Gibraltarian people soundly rejected a joint sovereignty proposal. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_s ... _Gibraltar

"When the bases were being established, the boundaries were drawn up to avoid centres of population. However, around 14,000 people live in the bases. Around 7,000 native Cypriots live in the bases... Under the terms of the 1960 agreement with Cyprus establishing the Sovereign Base Areas, the United Kingdom is committed not to use the Areas for civilian purposes. This was stated in 2002 as the primary reason for the exclusion of the Areas from the scope of the British Overseas Territories Act 2002."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_and_Dhekelia

The bases on cyprus are not counted as oversea territories like gibralta and they have cypriots living in hte bases, there are not many, if any Spaniards in gibralta. but anyways i doubt that cyprus, a member of europe, will have guts to take them away from britain.
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