Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Guys, you forget that there are many other sincere people both in Cyprus and Greece who reject the Annan plan. Are they all misled or impaired?

Have you Greek Cypriots here seen the maps of the Annan plan? Have you asked yourselved why in each and every map the British Base of Dekhelia abuts the Turkish Cyptiot component state and the communication between the two parts of the Greek Cypriots state would have to be by flyovers and underpasses? Why the specific mention that the old Nicosia Famagusta road was in the Turkish Component state?
Do you ever wonder why the Greek components state was cut in two by the British base of Dekhelia. Does that map not talk to you?

Do none of you think in geopoltical terms? For heavens sakes!

[Get Real!]

Under these circumstances the Annan Plan was a blessing in disguise but, we let the train go by, because we had the worst man at the helm at the most crucial time in the recent history of Cyprus.

I'll let the great man himself remind you...

"I received a state; I will not deliver a community"

[Piratis]

Argue? Whats the point? I will argue your president is doing everything he possibly could not to bring an end to the Cyprob you will argue otherwise. I will tell you he is a liar, a cheat, he thinks he is fooling the whole world when in fact he is making a fool of himself.

You call the above "arguments"? I can tell you that your wife is a whore then. Would it mean she is? Just because you dislike somebody and you swear and throw mad at him, it doesn't make what you say true.

Piratis you are no match for Bananiot

No match in what? In siding with the invadors? Of course not. Thats why you like him and not me.

how many GCs really understood or even read any part of the Annan Plan? 30% at best, the rest were exposed to a leader who was in tears telling them that they would lose everything and religious leaders saying you will burn in hell if you voted YES.

Here is a poll from February, long before Papadopoulos asked from people to reject the Annan plan: http://www.simerini.com/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=130368
That poll and every poll about the Annan plan showed that Cypriots would reject the plan. This was true even while Cleredes was president during previous versions of Annan plan. The great majority of people in the polls always either rejected the plan outright, or said that they would approve it only if significant positive changes where made. At no point in history did the majority of Cypriots approve the Annan plan.
Maybe not everybody read the whole of Annan plan, but in the numerous discussions in radio and TV about the plan those that supported the AP had no serious arguments to support it, so they were buttered. The main "argument" of the pro-Annans were threats that bad things will happen to Cyprus if we do not capitulate.

Even today you have demonized the AP plan to such a degree that you have convinced only yourselves that it was a partition plan. This guilt trip and denial is only to sooth you dented egos that you rejected the only chance put before the people of this island and that will be placed before you yet again if the UN have anything to do with a new round of negotiations. Even the UN ar enot interested as they do not trust the sincerity of the GCs who not only tricked them into thinking that they would commit to a plan brokered by them and backed by 90% of the world which believe me will be rehashed and put before you, there is a saying in Turkish "You will have to lick up what you spat out".

The 90% of the world recognizes the right of the Cypriot people to take decisions about their own island. It also condemns your illegal occupation of 1/3rd of our country. So don't try to bring the "world" on your side, because it is not.

[Piratis]

Piratis playing his traitor hand again. I thought he got over it but it seems old habits die hard.

When you collaborate with foreigners to go against the 100% legal and 100% democratically expressed wish of the people of your country then yes, it is a treason. There is no other name for it.

ow, let us see who is lying. Papadopoulos won the elections promising that he would solve our problem on the basis of the Annan Plan.

Here we go again. No either your memory is not good or you are intentionally lying here. Papadopoulos clearly said that Annan plan would be the basis for negotiations and not the basis for a solution. Did you really forget the discussions about "βάση για διαπραγμάτευση" VS "βάση για λύση". Not that many years passed too fool us like that dear Bananiot.

Papadopoulos said that Annan plan would be the basis for further negotiations and thats exactly what he did. In fact one of the main arguments of Papadopoulos during the previous presidential elections was that Cleredes would accept the Annan plan as it is. And the lier Cleredes was lying saying that he would not accept it either if significant improvements were not made. But we knew better than to believe Cleredes again.

Piratis said he did not vote for Papadopoulos because he wanted him to solve the problem with the Annan Plan. I believe him. Many of his followers voted for him because they knew he would kick the Annan Plan and any solution based on BBF, at the first chance. He was playing a double game with the international community and its institutions. When Denktash went, he was left in a nasty situation. He had to show his real face, the one Piratis and his ultra right supporters knew only too well.

Since when wanting democracy, freedom for your country and human rights without racist discriminations make somebody "ultra right"? Everybody that voted for Papadopoulos did so because they knew Papadopoulous would not accept any unfair solution. Papadopoulos never gave any promises that Greek Cypriots would accept just whatever is given to them. Maybe Cleredes did that, and some expected Papadopoulos to keep that line too, but that was the fault of Cleredes, not Papadopoulos.

He negotiated the Annan Plan no. 3 in order to make it better and he failed miserably. It appears like this on the surface of things. However, unbiased people will tell that he did not negotiate at all in order to better Plan no. 3. He wanted to bring to his people a Plan, as poor as possible, so that he could ask for its rejection.

Papadopoulos did what he could to improve the Annan plan. The fact is that the UN (AlngloAmericans) all they were interested in was to get a "yes" vote from Turkey hoping that in this way they would remove from Cyprus its arguments when we would enter the EU, and limit our ability to block the EU accession process of Turkey. Or you think it is a coincidence they were rushing to close the Cyprus problem just before Cyprus entered the EU?

He made huge mistakes in his evaluation of the changes taking place in Turkey and formulated a strategy based on the intransigence of Denktash. He failed miserably to understand that something was moving in Turkey. Erdogan had publicly denounced the Ecevit/Denktash line that the Cyprob was solved in 1974. He accepted that there was a problem there awaiting to be solved. "Communication tricks" he called the new signals sent by Turkey.

There is no change in Turkey. Army rules now as it ruled always. Turkey was just wearing their European mask and everybody (with the encouragement of the Americans) pretended that they believed that something had changed.

When he finally had to face the harsh reality, instead of doing the only honourable thing and resign, he had the audacity to ask the people to shoulder the massive gaffs of his crazy policies. He told us that the international community will understand our vote and that a European solution was just round the corner. When he was warned about his policies and the detrimental effect they would have on Cyprus, he lightly rejected these calls and called those concerned about the future of Cyprus "scaremongers".

He shouldn't have called you "scaremongers" but traitors, since you were (and are) trying to help our enemies to achieve your "predictions".

And why should he resign????? We elected him democratically and he is going to site there to defend our country either you like him or not.

Now, we are left with a Taiwan in the north that enjoys all the sympathy of the international community. Now, no one talks about the invasion or indeed the occupation. They only see a people struggling to get over their isolation and an RoC that is doing its level best to suppress this struggle. I think, sooner than later, countries will start recognising the pseudo state and once this avalanche starts it will not be stopped. Under these circumstances the Annan Plan was a blessing in disguise but, we let the train go by, because we had the worst man at the helm at the most crucial time in the recent history of Cyprus.

And when you run out of arguments you start the threats as usual. The occupied areas are a Turkish military base, not Taiwan. If Turks had the ability to make the occupied areas a Taiwan then Turkey would be Japan.

Yes, things would be better if you didn't screw up and things like Annan plan never appeared, but thankfully Papadopoulos managed to save us from the worst at the last moment. If we had accepted the Annan plan not only we would already have partition, legal and with our signature, but the whole of Cyprus would be so totally screwed by now, so much that we would be discussing a "Serbia-Montenegro" type of official partition but the Turks would not accept it unless we made further compromises (e.g. for them to keep the whole occupied areas, except maybe Famagusta.)

And no, the pseudo state will not be recognized for many reasons, one of which that such thing does not actually serve the interests of the AngloAmericans.

And keep giving the Taiwan as example if you wish since soon it will be part of China. Then maybe you will learn the lesson that it is better to wait for the right time and the right balance of power, rather than to just capitulate.

[miltiades]

Guys, you forget that there are many other sincere people both in Cyprus and Greece who reject the Annan plan. Are they all misled or impaired?

Have you Greek Cypriots here seen the maps of the Annan plan? Have you asked yourselved why in each and every map the British Base of Dekhelia abuts the Turkish Cyptiot component state and the communication between the two parts of the Greek Cypriots state would have to be by flyovers and underpasses? Why the specific mention that the old Nicosia Famagusta road was in the Turkish Component state?
Do you ever wonder why the Greek components state was cut in two by the British base of Dekhelia. Does that map not talk to you?

Do none of you think in geopoltical terms? For heavens sakes!

I did not vote since I was not in Cyprus , but I vehemently opposed the AP plan that would permanently and LEGALY divide Cyprus into a Turkish and a Greek part.Not Cypriot but precisely two "foreign " parts within the island. Fifty percent of Cypriot police stations would be flying the Turkish flag and the other fifty the Greek flag.For indigenous Cypriots this was anathema. Turkey would be LEGALY in control of the entire island along with the other non influential foreign nation of Greece. To a true Cypriot the AP , that was promoted as a unifying agreement , was nothing of the sort.Even the Cypriot roads would be divided , and lets not forget that those that wanted the people of Cyprus to exercise their democratic right and vote YES !!! were not prepared to extend the required guarantees to the people that Turkey would eventually withdraw occupying troops. THEY expected the people to TRUST Turkey !!
No Sir the AP was to have been the beginning of the start of a future major conflict and not the start of a United Cyprus. Far too many fundamental issues contained points of discord and dissent by the people would inevitably lead to conflict with dire consequences for the people of Cyprus. The AP's prime objective was unquestionably not the unification of the island but the legal creation of the division of the people first created by the fanatic followers of Motherland aspirations and finalised by the invasion by Turkey.

[Bananiot]

In 1963 we stupidly decided to go for everything and we lost half of Cyprus. I would think we have learned our lessons and at least in 2007 make the wise decision and go for the feasible, not the desirable. Kasoulides, Christofias and Themistokleous (three out of four, representing about 68% of the people in south Cyprus) seem to have learned this lesson well. It is all very well to claim to be patriotic simply because you claim you want the desirable. There is absolutely no personal cost. In fact, the unhistorical may consider you to be a patriotic genius!

My friends, we are not faced with various options and we are asked to choose at will. We have two options in front of us. Partition or BBF which will NOT be much different from what the Annan Plan stipulated. Those that choose partition are doing so willingly because they do understand the options available to us. They coat their choice with a little sugar because they think that partition will not be forever and that sooner or later the balance will change in our favour, when all indications are there that after partition the balance will swing fully towards Turkey.

Things have never been clearer. I have given up on the likes of Piratis but it is heart-warming to see that the vast majority of my countrymen are now realising this plain fact and are abandoning Papadopoulos and his intrigues with Denktas along with his nebulous policies.

[Get Real!]

In 1963 we stupidly decided to go for everything and we lost half of Cyprus.

That is NOT what happened at all!

That's why I don't bother much with my replies to you Bananiot because you have a diabolical way of summarizing things with twists to suit your agenda's needs.

[Bananiot]

It is exactly what happened GR and there is nothing more diabolical than thinking and believing that we are 100% correct and the others are 100% in the wrong. All unbiased observers at the time credited our side with starting the turmoil by attempting to change the Constitution and organising a paramilitary organisation that would enforce the changes should the other side reject them. Various loud-mouthed "patriots" went on a killing spree at the time, literally forcing all the Turkish Cypriots to seek refuge in the warm embrace of TMT and Turkey. We brought the misery to ourselves but the tragic thing is that we do not seem to learn from our mistakes.

[-mikkie2-]

We can sit and argue about what happened 4 years ago but I'm afraid it is too late. Cyprus is screwed.

Bananiot, I think you have misread Clerides. He did not support the plan that was put to referendum. What he did support, was to accept the plan, knowing that many of its provisions could be challenged in the European courts. Lets face it, under European laws, things like the property provisions and voting rights could be challenged and in all probability would have to change.

Unfortunately, this would have led us down an even more unpredictable path and would also have affected how Turkey would enforce the plan. We were buying hope that Turkey would adhere to her signature but the past has shown that Turkeys signature means very little. To be honest I don't really know what would have been best.

After all this mess though, one thing is for sure. Any future plan MUST be agreed by the leaders of the two communities BEFORE being put to referendum again. To a large extent, the UN is largely to blame for what folowed and Clerides did warn the UN to delay the referendum. The UN in their rush to get the plan accepted before Cypriot accession to the EU backfired spectacularly. In fact, I believe that privately, UN diplomats agree that they also made errors of judgement on this.

How we can get out of the current situation I do not know, even if we voted for a president that is pro-solution. It begs the question what kind of a solution we will have to accept.

[Piratis]

Bananiot as usual repeats the Turkish propaganda. Here are all UN resolutions about Cyprus: http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm . Show me where our side is credited for starting the turmoil. Or maybe your "unbiased observers" are only those that agree with the Turkish propaganda?

Both sides were responsible for the conflict of 63-68. However that conflict was not even the excuse for the invasion. The coup of 1974 was, and that coup was about a small minority of Cypriots along with foreign support trying to go against what the majority of Cypriots democratically elected. Thats exactly what you do today Bananiot.

My friends, we are not faced with various options and we are asked to choose at will. We have two options in front of us. Partition or BBF which will NOT be much different from what the Annan Plan stipulated.

Wrong. The options for today are:
1) Continuation of status quo and leaving the possibilities open for the future.
2) Signing an official partition+ of the kind of Annan plan. Partition+ means that Turks would officially Turkify the north part of our country + Turkey would be able to control the whole of Cyprus.

The choice between the two options is obivous and the Cypriot people have made their choice in the most clear and direct way.

Things have never been clearer. I have given up on the likes of Piratis but it is heart-warming to see that the vast majority of my countrymen are now realising this plain fact and are abandoning Papadopoulos and his intrigues with Denktas along with his nebulous policies.

You are obviously dreaming. What has never been clearer is that the "pants down and bend" policies have been rejected by the Cypriot people in the most clear way.

With the exception of Themistokleous, who probably represents just himself and maybe his mother, since not even his 1.5% party supports him, nobody else dares to say to the Cypriot people that they will bring anything like the Annan plan back. Sure, with their lies maybe they will fool some and steal some votes, but the majority of the Cypriot people knows that the only one who is true to his word and will respect their decision is Papadopoulos. This is why all the polls show Papadopoulos first and with a difference that is rising.