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The descendents of Cypriots

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Get Real! » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:40 pm

bill cobbett wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Yialoser, you’ve made a dork of yourself again with these tables so I guess it’s time to go beat up another old man with your mates, to vent off! :lol:


... to "vent off" ... is that what it's called nowadays? ..... :?

:? "venting off" is a very common phrase in the English speaking world!

Where else have you been in the last decade besides Nof London? :lol:
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:41 pm

ZoC wrote:
yialousa1971 wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Yialoser, you’ve made a dork of yourself again with these tables so I guess it’s time to go beat up another old man with your mates, to vent off! :lol:


Everybody can see you're the fool like fat boy ZOC. If you don't understand the data, don't post!


Image so why did u?

:lol:
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:44 pm

yialousa1971 wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Yialoser, you’ve made a dork of yourself again with these tables so I guess it’s time to go beat up another old man with your mates, to vent off! :lol:


And I found a smiley for you fool!


Image

Isn't that what you looked like just before you beat up the old man?
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Postby mem101 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:50 pm

SpartanGamer, A link for the information you provided? I don't think this has been given enough attention to be honest enough to be honest but I've heard of a couple of studies.

http://illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... read=15285

Did you read the original post on this thread?

ps. "wish" lol.
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Postby SpartanGamer » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:26 pm

mem101 wrote:SpartanGamer, A link for the information you provided? I don't think this has been given enough attention to be honest enough to be honest but I've heard of a couple of studies.

http://illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... read=15285

Did you read the original post on this thread?

ps. "wish" lol.


That's an old study looking at an environmentally selected mutation (unlike 35delG which confers no advantage) and did not take account of convergence. The findings were later erroneously used to assert conclusions which cannot be derived from such a mutation.

The data I presented was extracted from the International Journal of Modern Anthropology [Int. J. Mod. Anthrop. 2 (2009)].
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Postby yialousa1971 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:10 am

Get Real! wrote:
yialousa1971 wrote:
Get Real! wrote:Yialoser, you’ve made a dork of yourself again with these tables so I guess it’s time to go beat up another old man with your mates, to vent off! :lol:


And I found a smiley for you fool!


Image

Isn't that what you looked like just before you beat up the old man?


I think thats more your style. Picking on old men is up your street, I remember what you posted when Miltiades lost his wife, scumbag............ :roll:
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Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:11 am

denizaksulu wrote:
DT. wrote:
repulsewarrior wrote:thank-you mem101, sensitive and thought provoking, Cypriots, beyond "Greeks" and "Turks"; much older.


Read his manifesto :lol:


He slipped there didn't he. :lol: :lol:


...here i am; lol...slipped indeed; what a well thought out dialog (eight pages from my post); all i can add is, consider the ethnospheres (all those variations within a social body, and the ethnograhy in general), that are so badly decimated by the Modern world, and that in this interplay these genes created in a political-geography that sustained these variations as isolated communities, all distinctions are headed toward extinction.

...furthermore, please correct me if i'm wrong, but the information provides the thought that there are Greeks and Turks that are different, i am curious to know how closely Cypriots are related to Arabs and Jews, other neighbours in our region, and i am still confused about who are the Turkish (or what that means to Cypriots who are Turcophone).

...then came Tolstoy, and the first WW, and our betrayal as Humans because we do not remember that we are not enemies of each other, but that our enemies are larger, like Hunger, Disease, Ignorance, and Natural Disaster.

...in Cyprus, we may yet choose to define the good will expressed in diversity. for Mankind we must define the word Bicommunal so that all Cypriots as Equals can have for themselves one Government, as Individuals, represented and defended within a State, while as Persons, sustained as two (or many) Majorities with each their National Assembly, an Identity that provides for the special needs of the Minorities which live amongst them, Bizonally providing these services island wide.

curious, please read my manifesto...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31695
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26478
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19022
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

cheers!

...in a nutshell
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Postby mem101 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:39 pm

I read through the study you pointed me at and I thought about pointing out that the size of the sample of TCs taken in the study represented the smallest of any region. But the authors themselves point this out.

"The percentage of carrier = 2.47% obtained in Greek Cypriots (Neocleous et al., 2006) is
significantly more elevated to that we obtained in Turkish Cypriots; but in fact it might
be the difficult to predict whether there is a really significant difference, since the 0/105
rate we obtained for Turkish Cypriots concerns a relatively small sample of people and
this can cause the width of the CI interval to be comparatively large."

You seem to be drawing your own conclusions from non-exhaustive data. The 35delG mutation seems to have originated in Crete (you'll have to read the authors' discussion about this and the history Crete for a fuller explanation). Mainland Greece has a lower percentage of carriers and southern Cyprus lower still. If you think this proves that Cyprus is "Greek" without considering any other data, genetic or otherwise, then it seems you have pre-conceived ideas of what you want the results to show. We know that Cyprus was a part of the Ancient Greek world and it has a lot of ancient Greek ancestry and heritage. The results concur with this analysis though to the extent I would have expected especially for an island population (southern Cyprus having less than half the carrier rates of Crete). Since the founder effect is most common in island populations it may be concluded that there was a significant enough population already on Cyprus when the Minoans arrived.

Thanks very much for pointing out these studies, I'll be keeping an eye on them and doing more searches to see if more directly relevent and exhaustive studies are undertaken.

While all this may be of interest to some, including myself, it doesn't really affect the present situation or the future. I was aware that my ideas were not conclusive facts and made that clear. The point was to unite, to have a starting point, a common history and background. If my ideas about that turn out to be wrong, fair enough. It wouldn't really change anything though. We have still both shared the island for many many generations and need to solve the problem at hand.

Repulsewarrior, thanks for the links, I'll be reading your manifesto a little later!
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Postby SpartanGamer » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:11 pm

mem101 wrote:I read through the study you pointed me at and I thought about pointing out that the size of the sample of TCs taken in the study represented the smallest of any region. But the authors themselves point this out.


I know they (politely) made a point of sampling 106 TCs. Yet, the sample from Crete was only 112, and the others not much more; so maybe they were just trying to be 'forgiving' since the obvious conclusion is ...... but, I've already told you. :wink:


You seem to be drawing your own conclusions from non-exhaustive data. The 35delG mutation seems to have originated in Crete (you'll have to read the authors' discussion about this and the history Crete for a fuller explanation). Mainland Greece has a lower percentage of carriers and southern Cyprus lower still.


I'm the first to avoid drawing conclusions from "non-exhaustive data". Yet, after repeated requests, you failed to provide any evidence for your conclusion that Greek Cyriots and "Turkish Cypriots" are "brothers". I therefore pointed you in the direction of something a little more scientific than "wish"-ful thinking - the sort of myth-busting evidence that makes people think.

If you think this proves that Cyprus is "Greek" without considering any other data, genetic or otherwise,


Oh, but there is PLENTY of other data (cultural, historical, linguistic etc) - It is in fact you who chooses to ignore it all in preference for some pie-in the sky "wish" that some recently imposed 'visitors', who have brought nothing but trouble to Cyprus, are "brothers" of GCs and to the exclusion of the rest of humanity.

... southern Cyprus having less than half the carrier rates of Crete


Crete does have the highest rate and all other (present and past) Greek territories have diminishing amounts depending on the distance from Crete. Sounds pretty perfectly in line with Greek Cypriots being part of the Greek peoples and their past and present territories.

To quote the researchers on this point:

"...there are some correspondences between the relative prevalences for the 35delG mutation and historico-geographic events concerning Ancient Greek Territories and successive colonizations."

I was aware that my ideas were not conclusive facts and made that clear. The point was to unite, to have a starting point, a common history and background. If my ideas about that turn out to be wrong, fair enough. It wouldn't really change anything though. We have still both shared the island for many many generations and need to solve the problem at hand.


Excellent! You are getting there ... but we don't need to make out we ever "shared" the island (you viewed it as all yours and taxed and enslaved us) or that our "common history" was anything other than a millstone around GCs' necks.

But, I agree that the TCs have a place in a fully-free and Democratic Cyprus where they can take their place, like every other RoC-respecting citizen from wherever they (legally) arrive. They don't have to be my "brothers" for me to get along with them ... :wink:
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Postby yialousa1971 » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:23 pm

Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome

Cornelia Di Gaetano1,10, Nicoletta Cerutti1,10, Francesca Crobu1,11, Carlo Robino2, Serena Inturri2, Sarah Gino2, Simonetta Guarrera3, Peter A Underhill4, Roy J King5, Valentino Romano6, Francesco Cali7, Mauro Gasparini8, Giuseppe Matullo1,3, Alfredo Salerno9, Carlo Torre2 and Alberto Piazza1

1Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Turin, Turin, Italy
2Department of Anatomy, Pharmacology and Legal Medicine, University of Turin, Turin, Italy
3ISI Foundation, Turin, Italy
4Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA, USA
5Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, USA
6Dipartimento di Oncologia Sperimentale e Applicazioni Cliniche, Università di Palermo, Palermo, Italy
7Laboratorio di Genetica Molecolare, Istituto per la Ricerca sul Ritardo Mentale e l'Involuzione Cerebrale, Associazione Oasi Maria SS, Troina, Italy
8Department of Mathematics, Politecnico di Torino, Turin, Italy
9Dipartimento di Biopatologia e Metodologie Biomediche, Universita di Palermo, Palermo, Italy

Correspondence: Dr C Di Gaetano, Department of Genetics, Biology and Biochemistry, University of Turin, via Santena 19, Turin 10126, Italy. Tel: +39 011 670 5614; Fax: +39 011 670 5668; E-mail: [email protected]

10These authors have equally contributed to this work

11Current address: INN-CNR, Cittadella Universitaria di Cagliari, SS 554 km 4500 bivio per Sestu, Monserrato (CA) 09042, Italy

Received 20 December 2007; Revised 2 May 2008; Accepted 29 May 2008; Published online 6 August 2008.


The presence or absence of genetic heterogeneity in Sicily has long been debated. Through the analysis of the variation of Y-chromosome lineages, using the combination of haplogroups and short tandem repeats from several areas of Sicily, we show that traces of genetic flows occurred in the island, due to ancient Greek colonization and to northern African contributions, are still visible on the basis of the distribution of some lineages. The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% whereas the contribution of North African populations is estimated to be around 6%.

In particular, the presence of a modal haplotype coming from the southern Balkan Peninsula and of its one-step derivates associated to E3b1a2-V13, supports a common genetic heritage between Sicilians and Greeks. The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era. The Eastern and Western part of Sicily appear to be significantly different by the χ2-analysis, although the extent of such differentiation is not very high according to an analysis of molecular variance. The presence of a high number of different haplogroups in the island makes its gene diversity to reach about 0.9. The general heterogeneous composition of haplogroups in our Sicilian data is similar to the patterns observed in other major islands of the Mediterranean, reflecting the complex histories of settlements in Sicily.

Principal component analysis (Figure 3) is performed on a database resulting from merging our present data with data from Pericic et al 200531 and with the more recent ones by Zalloua et al30 specifically devoted to Lebanon.

Figure 3 displays a synthetic picture of the genetic distances between all the samples (WSI and ESI are compared with 28 other regions from Europe and the Mediterranean) according to the first and the second principal components of the frequencies of Hgs R1-M173, R1a1-M17, I1b-xM26-P37, E3b1a-M78 and J2b1-M102. The final result is that WSI and ESI are compared with 28 other regions from Europe and the Mediterranean. The general pattern in the graph is a separation between Balkan populations in the upper left corner (mainly due to I1b-xM26-P37), northern African and Mid-Eastern populations in the lower left corner and other European population on a branch extending to the right.


Image


AEI=Aegean islands; CYP=Cypriot; GRE=Greek; Cyprus falls between Aegean Islands and Mainland Greece!

Image

ESI and WSI fall at the intersection of the latter clusters and are well separated from the Balkan populations. ESI is closer to Greece and Cyprus and it is discriminated by the first PC (66% total variance) from WSI (which is similar to Calabria and other western Europeans, mainly due to R1b1c-M269).

ESI is closer to Greece and Cyprus! See Figure3.


http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/ ... 8120a.html
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