Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Maybe but that is hardly relevant. What is relevant is whether the Syrian Chopper violated Turkish Airspace. If it did, then the Turks had their right to protect their border.

Whether or not it did or not is very hard to prove. Only the Turks and Syrians know the truth. Perhaps the Americans also know with their Satellite and surveillance technology.

What I think is obvious is that the Chopper engaged FSA rebels near the border, and may have ventured into Turkish Airspace to engage the FSA that may have been using Turkey for protection.

The Turks picked up the activity from their sentries, and radar and scrambled a couple of jets. Syrian Chopper tries to leave, and departs Turkish Airpace but is hit in Syrian Airspace.

I don't think this is adequate revenge for the Phantom. So I do not believe that is the motive.

In order to avenge the Phantom, would mean at least 1 or 2 Syrian MIGs and within their airspace to send the regime a clear message!

No one is questioning the Syrian chopper entering Turkish airspace, Paphitis. Question is why it was shot down in Syrian airspace. Turks claim to have warned the chopper many times by radio that it was in their airspace, so once the chopper then decides to leave the Turkish airspace and have left the Turkish airspace, it was then shot down. It doesn't make sense, does it, other than the fact the Turkish jets did not get there fast enough to shoot the chopper down in Turkish airspace?

You heard the phrase "beggars can't be choosers" haven't you? Sure the Turks would have loved to have shot down couple of fast moving Migs to revenge for the F4 instead of a sitting duck chopper, but you take what you can get after waiting for a long while!

[Paphitis]

Maybe but that is hardly relevant. What is relevant is whether the Syrian Chopper violated Turkish Airspace. If it did, then the Turks had their right to protect their border.

Whether or not it did or not is very hard to prove. Only the Turks and Syrians know the truth. Perhaps the Americans also know with their Satellite and surveillance technology.

What I think is obvious is that the Chopper engaged FSA rebels near the border, and may have ventured into Turkish Airspace to engage the FSA that may have been using Turkey for protection.

The Turks picked up the activity from their sentries, and radar and scrambled a couple of jets. Syrian Chopper tries to leave, and departs Turkish Airpace but is hit in Syrian Airspace.

I don't think this is adequate revenge for the Phantom. So I do not believe that is the motive.

In order to avenge the Phantom, would mean at least 1 or 2 Syrian MIGs and within their airspace to send the regime a clear message!

No one is questioning the Syrian chopper entering Turkish airspace, Paphitis. Question is why it was shot down in Syrian airspace. Turks claim to have warned the chopper many times by radio that it was in their airspace, so once the chopper then decides to leave the Turkish airspace and have left the Turkish airspace, it was then shot down. It doesn't make sense, does it, other than the fact the Turkish jets did not get there fast enough to shoot the chopper down in Turkish airspace?

You heard the phrase "beggars can't be choosers" haven't you? Sure the Turks would have loved to have shot down couple of fast moving Migs to revenge for the F4 instead of a sitting duck chopper, but you take what you can get after waiting for a long while!

I see what you are saying Kikapu.

There are many possibilities which will will never know.

The Chopper may not have responded to the TAF. They may have ignored instructions.

The Chopper may have engaged FSA targets in Turkey. And of course, the Turks might have wanted to shoot it down regardless.

Probably, under the circumstances, most countries will have shot it down even in Syrian Airspace, unless the Chopper immediately responded to instructions and left immediately after told to do so and presuming it did not engage in combat in Turkey in which case the Turks would just go for the kill no matter what.

You name it! It's all possible.

[Robin Hood]

BBC News 20th Sept 2013: The US Secretary of State John Kerry says "it is a fact" President Bashar al-Assad was responsible for the chemical weapons attack on Damascus in August.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24168636

I have read the UN report. I am neither a lawyer nor a scientist but with the application of just a bit of common sense the report clearly indicates the opposite of Kerry’s bold statement to be far more likely. This man Kerry is either incompetent or an out-and-out liar. In either case he should be put on trial not Assad!

I found a string of problems with the content of the UN Inspectors report, not through any fault of the UN Inspectors as they did what they were required to do and proved that Sarin was used. After reading the report I came to the same conclusions as this article (more-or-less) and given the problems encountered by the inspectors, this evidence would not stand up in court if presented as the basis for an indictment let alone an actual charge made against Assad.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-gas-attack-assad-wrongfully-blamed/5350350

“There was a massacre in Latakia on August 4, 2013 that went unreported. The mainstream media in the US and the countries allied to it failed to cover this or casually pass it over, obviously because it was inconvenient to change the agenda in Syria.
The study mentions that the relatives of children that were abducted by the US-supported insurgents have begun to come forward to identify their relatives in the videos. It paints an ominous picture that the bodies of these children were prostituted to open the field in Syria for a foreign military intervention.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article36284.htm

This also needs looking at seriously ................................

September 19, 2013 - Information Clearing House

The US intelligence community has been put to shame by the dedication and determination of a lone Christian nun. Her modest study of the videos of the Syrian chemical attack shows they were productions involving staged bodies.

Those who take the time to read the report by Mother Agnes and the International Support Team for Mussalaha in Syria (ISTEAMS) will realize that it disgraces the entire US intelligence community for endorsing video footage that is clearly dubious and not credible upon careful study by even a layperson.

Excerpt from the Foreword of the Study:

“From the moment when some families of abducted children contacted us to inform us that they recognized the children among those who are presented in the videos as victims of the Chemical Attacks of East Ghouta, we decided to examine the videos thoroughly.

Our first concern was the fate of the children we see in the footages. Those angels are always alone in the hands of adult males that seem to be elements of armed gangs. The children that trespassed remain without their families and unidentified all the way until they are wrapped in the white shrouds of the burial. Moreover our study highlights without any doubt that their little bodies were manipulated and disposed with theatrical arrangements to figure in the screening.

If the studied footages were edited and published to exhibit pieces of evidence to accuse the Syrian State of perpetrating the chemical attacks on East Ghouta, our discoveries incriminate the editors and actors of forged facts through a lethal manipulation of unidentified children.

Thus we want to raise awareness toward the humanitarian case of this criminal use of children in the political propaganda of the East Ghouta Chemical Weapons Attack.

We present this work to distinguished Spiritual Leaders, Heads of State, Members of Parliament Humanitarian actors and to any person who has heart for truth and justice and seeks to due accountability for evil deeds.“

Mother Agnes Mariam de La Croix,

President, International Support Team for Mussalaha in Syria

(PLEASE READ THE REPORT BY MOTHER AGNES.) It is rather long but .... simple and factual ..... AND VERY VALID)

It would appear that these children supposedly gassed in Ghouta, are not from Ghouta but from Latakia and were kidnapped a few days before the incident in Ghouta on the 21st August. Many have been identified by their parents!!!!! It is also becoming clear that the civilian population were moved out of Ghouta about two days before this attack took place.

[bigOz]

Maybe but that is hardly relevant. What is relevant is whether the Syrian Chopper violated Turkish Airspace. If it did, then the Turks had their right to protect their border.

Whether or not it did or not is very hard to prove. Only the Turks and Syrians know the truth. Perhaps the Americans also know with their Satellite and surveillance technology.

What I think is obvious is that the Chopper engaged FSA rebels near the border, and may have ventured into Turkish Airspace to engage the FSA that may have been using Turkey for protection.

The Turks picked up the activity from their sentries, and radar and scrambled a couple of jets. Syrian Chopper tries to leave, and departs Turkish Airpace but is hit in Syrian Airspace.

I don't think this is adequate revenge for the Phantom. So I do not believe that is the motive.

In order to avenge the Phantom, would mean at least 1 or 2 Syrian MIGs and within their airspace to send the regime a clear message!

No one is questioning the Syrian chopper entering Turkish airspace, Paphitis. Question is why it was shot down in Syrian airspace. Turks claim to have warned the chopper many times by radio that it was in their airspace, so once the chopper then decides to leave the Turkish airspace and have left the Turkish airspace, it was then shot down. It doesn't make sense, does it, other than the fact the Turkish jets did not get there fast enough to shoot the chopper down in Turkish airspace?

You heard the phrase "beggars can't be choosers" haven't you? Sure the Turks would have loved to have shot down couple of fast moving Migs to revenge for the F4 instead of a sitting duck chopper, but you take what you can get after waiting for a long while!

Reh Kikapuşt! The Syrian chopper was not fired on in Syrian Airspace - watch and listen to news besides what your brains manipulate as a form of emotional masturbation!

The whole of Turkey witnessed the remains of the chopper 400 METRES AWAY FROM THE TURKİSH VILLAGE AT THE BORER! It was shown by at least two different Turkish TV crew who walked the odd 400 metres into Syria (Rebel area) and recorded the wreckage on videao - with scenes of the Turkish village in the background.

The radar traces and the aircraft movements shows the F16 firing the missile when the chopper was still 2 km inside the Turkish airspace, not responding to air traffic control calls. You intentionally ignore what I wrote in an earlier post; as a pilot I can tell you it would take less than 30 seconds for a military chopper (probably 15-20 seconds if running away on full power) to cover the 2 km to the border after realising it was fired at. I missile fired more than 10 km away (as was the case here) would take about 10-15 seconds to hit the target plus the time it takes the distance already covered by the chopper. Simple mathematics say that a chopper 2 km inside the border, speeding towards it, chased by a missile fired from 10 km away is bound to be hit just inside the Syrian border as it crossed it!

What part of the above is it you do not comprehend? Start functioning the second (one track) brain cell you might possess! You are still asking "...but why was it shot inside the Syrian airspace?". Well, once fired the fucking missiles do not have a recognition button that can self destruct once over enemy borders! They would chase the target all the way to Damascus if it was travelling fast enough!

AND this was a helicopter from a hostile country who threatened to use chemical and/or other missiles against her neighbours including Turkey, flying at 24,500 feet INSIDE the Turkish border. If your claims were one tenth right, the whole of Europe as well as Russia would have been screaming their heads off at Turkey. So what is your problem?

[Paphitis]

The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.

Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.

A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.

The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

[kimon07]

President, International Support Team for Mussalaha in Syria

(PLEASE READ THE REPORT BY MOTHER AGNES.) It is rather long but .... simple and factual ..... AND VERY VALID)

It would appear that these children supposedly gassed in Ghouta, are not from Ghouta but from Latakia and were kidnapped a few days before the incident in Ghouta on the 21st August. Many have been identified by their parents!!!!! It is also becoming clear that the civilian population were moved out of Ghouta about two days before this attack took place.[/quote]


The Cyprus “bath tub massacre” provocation enlarged. How very Turko-islamic.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis:

Unfortunately, too many members are just full of shit in eagerness to rubbish anything British. That is how members lose their credibility!

It is an offence under International Law to provide even the materials that can be used to make MWD’s. Think back to Saddam and his ‘special pipes ’supplied from the UK and all the controversy over them ..... which turned out to nothing in the end. It is even an offence to supply the know-how!

So my answer to GiG is correct ........... if the UK supplied the ingredient’s knowing they could be used to produce a chemical weapon, then they broke International law. In the same way as supplying weapons, information and support to terrorists is also an International offence but it doesn’t seem to worry the US and its Allies very much, does it? They just reclassify ‘terrorists’ as the 'good guys' and supply it anyway!

I am not rubbishing anything British, but I am certainly not blind to my Country’s numerous faults.

The Russians were shown the evidence and they fully know who is responsible and only the other day claimed that anything is possible and "stranger things have happened" as if to insinuate that the rebels could have infiltrated the Syrian Military Base from where the rockets were launched and stolen the Syrian CW Rockets and launched them.

Yes not a problem Russia. As to the 'evidence', it is not fit for public consumption. This intelligence was gained from people in Syria who are on the ground, Satellite Images, and Trajectory Analysis from the most top secret espionage installations in the world, such as the infamous Echelon Network in North America, and Australia.

Those that needed to be informed were, including Russia. The UK, France, Australia, Japan and some others have seen the evidence and have stated that there is no doubt!

If you were to read ALL the available evidence you would understand why the Russians and many other Nations refute the claims by the US/UK/France, who were hell bent on war. The MSM does not give you the full story. The rockets used were identified as Russian, by the Russians who say it is from 1950’s production as identified by the markings, they also said which factory made them and these would certainly not be standard inventory for Assad’s forces. The second larger rocket was a crude homemade device and again would not have been part of the Syrian army’s inventory. I have seen nowhere your claim that ‘.....rebels could have infiltrated the Syrian Military Base’.

You could say that ‘....of course it is obvious Assad would know this so he would use old stock so the he could blame it on the rebels’, which is no doubt what somebody will come up with to disprove the validity of the evidence?

Evidence can easily be provided without releasing details that would compromise National Security, so the argument that this conclusive evidence is ‘.....not fit for public consumption’, is rubbish. You only claim that sort of immunity when you have something to hide ...... or don’t have the ‘conclusive evidence’ to support the claims, which seems to be the case.

We can all say, that this is a good thing as Syrians will never again be killed from chemical weapons.

Has anybody told the rebels this? It also depends on your idea of chemical weapons! Do you exclude White Phosphorous and depleted/enriched Uranium from that classification?

That nonsense Robin Hood!

Australia is the biggest exporter of Uranium and enrinched Uraniam in the world.

It sells the stuff to other countries such as Russia and China to power their Nuclear Power plants and to be used for oeaceful purposes. If either country uses this material to make Nuclear Weapons, you can't blame Australia.

Likewise, the UK did not sell these compounds so that Syria can make Sarin Gas whilst the UK is prohibited to have such weapons!

[Robin Hood]

Paphitis:

That nonsense Robin Hood!

Australia is the biggest exporter of Uranium and enriched Uranium in the world.

It sells the stuff to other countries such as Russia and China to power their Nuclear Power plants and to be used for peaceful purposes. If either country uses this material to make Nuclear Weapons, you can't blame Australia.

Likewise, the UK did not sell these compounds so that Syria can make Sarin Gas whilst the UK is prohibited to have such weapons!

In the context you are using i.e. between ‘approved’ governments such an arrangement is perfectly legal but when a State has sanctions in place such as Syria, Iran, North Korea etc. it is not legal. I was in Iran for some years and we needed special licences to enable the import of equipment that COULD be used in the manufacture of nuclear devices. These were just ordinary pieces of instrumentation used throughout the Middle East. (and by then also obsolete pneumatic types and only available from Japan)

So we are both right?

Corection, I think you are correct as Syria is not as far as I can find out under any sanctions ..... so I concede you are correct in this instance.

It is the ‘could be used for’ statement that the US uses to prevent any chemical that could be used in the manufacture of these devices, that prohibits many chemicals from being acquired by certain regimes. It’s a bit like Cyprus ..... it’s a case of who your friends are! It is not so much supplying the chemicals to actually make CW but the fact that it is possible to do so.

[bigOz]

The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.
Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.
A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.
The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

MI 25 has a maximum velocity of over 310 km/hr on full power! Assuming these guys managed accelerating to 300 km/hr applying full power and allowing for acceleration after being warned of a missile attack - that works out to be 0.083 km/sec. Turkish F16s use AIM-9 sidewinders capable of doing 0.50 km /sec. (Mach-1.5 speed!).

If the helicopter was stationary, it would have been hit after around 25 seconds average from firing and it would probably be falling 2km inside the Turkish territory. With full power, MI25 would traveled another 2.08 km in 25 seconds and got hit just across the border.

Note I said "25 sec average"! This is taking into account the time it takes for the sidewinder to reach Mach 1.5 - a good 7-8 secs if not more! It does not travel at Mach-1.5 as soon as it lets go. It needs to accelerate after firing its own rocket.

[kimon07]

The chopper doing 120 knots is 2 nms/minute = 3.7 km/min.
Therefore, 1.85km/30secs.
A Sparrow medium range air to air approx 40km/min = 20km/30secs.
The missile would have been fired over 20 kms away for the chopper to have enough time to travel 2 km into Syrian airspace.

MI 25 has a maximum velocity of over 310 km/hr on full power! Assuming these guys managed accelerating to 300 km/hr applying full power and allowing for acceleration after being warned of a missile attack - that works out to be 0.083 km/sec. Turkish F16s use AIM-9 sidewinders capable of doing 0.50 km /sec. (Mach-1.5 speed!).

If the helicopter was stationary, it would have been hit after around 25 seconds average from firing and it would probably be falling 2km inside the Turkish territory. With full power, MI25 would traveled another 2.08 km in 25 seconds and got hit just across the border.

Note I said "25 sec average"! This is taking into account the time it takes for the sidewinder to reach Mach 1.5 - a good 7-8 secs if not more! It does not travel at Mach-1.5 as soon as it lets go. It needs to accelerate after firing its own rocket.

Now, me not being a specialist I will ask a silly question. If the helicopter was hit (blasted to pieces) by an AIM-9, how come the pilot/s managed to bail out (to be beheaded on the ground)????