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The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:32 am

Yesterday Russia's Ambassador to the UK held a press conference about the Skripal incident, during which he said that his country has never had Novichok. However, at least 3 former Soviet scientists have described working on the Foliant program - the codename given to the project to develop Novichok - in the 1970s and 1980s. In 1992 one of them, Andrei Zheleznyakov even described to a Russian newspaper how he was nearly killed by the nerve agent in an accident, whilst working on the development. He died of complications from the poisoning in 1993.

The Ambassador also told those present that President Putin had never said traitors would "Kick the bucket".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7gIA065vRk



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... d-novichok


This week's prize for the most memorable comment must surely go to the man:

“We have a lot of suspicions about Britain. If we take the last 10 years, so many Russian citizens died here in the UK under very strange circumstances."

Yes! And they all had one particular thing in common. They were all adversaries of Vladimir Putin. :lol:

I'm going to need a lot more popcorn before this is over. 8)


.
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:33 pm

Londonrake:
Yesterday Russia's Ambassador to the UK held a press conference about the Skripal incident, during which he said that his country has never had Novichok. However, at least 3 former Soviet scientists have described working on the Foliant program - the codename given to the project to develop Novichok - in the 1970s and 1980s. In 1992 one of them, Andrei Zheleznyakov even described to a Russian newspaper how he was nearly killed by the nerve agent in an accident, whilst working on the development (in 1987 ). He died of complications from the poisoning in 1993.
So where was The Ambassador wrong?


Note: a project to develop Novichoc! That is of course different to actually making any. The first time it was ever recorded as a nerve agent by the OPCW was in 2016 when the Iranians produced a very small amount, in a laboratory under the control and supervision of the OPCW. Even Mirzayanov said they had never actually produced any Novichoc agents in the 70’s and 80’s ...... which, correct me if I am wrong, was The Soviet USSR period? So not related to the Russian Federation who gave up their 40.000 tons of Soviet era chemical weapons in the 80-90’s and the US and the UK dismantled the last place these nerve agents were tested in Uzbekistan.

So your comment is not quite what you intended it to purvey. :roll: The Ambassador was correct, The Russian Federation never produced a Novichoc nerve agent!

The Guardian article said .......

...... describing the 1987 weapons lab incident ....... By 1992, when the interview was published ........ Less than a year later he was dead .........He died in 1993 of a brain seizure ........ a nerve agent believed to be more potent than the deadly VX nerve agent


It took him six years to die! So it wasn’t a Novichoc nerve agent, as that kills in minutes according to Porton Down , who also said there was no antidote........ it was an accident with the chemicals they were using to develop a Novichoc nerve agent, NOT a Novichoc nerve agent itself ..... which it appears they never managed to make!

The Ambassador also told those present that President Putin had never said traitors would "Kick the bucket".


I don’t speak Russian so I wouldn’t know what he said. But Putin had released Skripal by then anyway and then went to all the trouble of doing it the hard way with an identifiable nerve agent? Surely Putin is smarter than that? A botched burglary of an unfortunate road accident would be much simpler and untraceable.
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:43 pm

LR
You prove once again that to reason with you is a waste of time. You have to make it personal!

You are a dinosaur from the age of British Empire, a cold war and a USSR. You have failed to come to terms with the fact there is no British Empire, the cold war ended many years ago and so did the USSR but not for you obviously? In your perception anything that refutes your views of World events in the MSM is by definition fake news or a conspiracy theory. As I tried to explain, our mindsets operate differently. You accept these things .... I don’t, I need proof or at least a better than 50:50 probability.

You ask why in all these years I have never criticised Russia. The answer is very simple ...... because I have never found them to be in default of International Law. There are a myriad of accusations from ‘... the other side’ .... but they are never backed by facts. The same does not apply to the US and its allies.

But it does not stop the UK Ambassador to the UN from throwing out the same unfounded accusation along with Crimea, Georgia etc. whist ignoring their own culpability. The US alone has been responsible for 20 million civilian deaths since WWII. So 'Holier than thou' doesn't work for me! :x
.
So let’s just agree to differ. I have a different and much broader approach for my analysis of World events. :roll:
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:52 pm

Schnauzer wrote:Not wishing to get too involved in the debate regarding the Russian involvement (or lack of) the poisoning affair, I am prompted by your reference to the 'Brainwashing ' of the military personnel to make some observations which might lessen the impact of such an assumption that 'Soldiers are Automatoms'.

My own career in the military, opened my eyes to realities both within and without the services to such an extent that I became far more conscious of the fact that (both militarily and politically) the entire process of serving the nation (or whatever) is specifically designed to ensure that those serving should NEVER be completely aware of the true purpose of their required dedication to duty.

Only with the passing of time does one come to understand that the objectives of military service are invariably subject to agendas beyond the reach of the common serviceman/woman who are generally convinced that they are doing the right thing by obeying the commands of their (as they see it ) superiors.

Might I suggest that such is not so 'Cut and Dried' in these troubled times ?, I have witnessed many changes in the attitudes of military personnel when they are called upon to embark upon active campaigns against new enemies, there often seems to be an amount of questioning going on and, looking back over the years, many are convinced that whatever the outcomes, the ordinary citizens will receive no benefits at all as they risk their lives.

Time was when the lower ranks were more fearful of their officers than they were of their perceived enemies, the 'First world War' is a good example of that and the pages of history are littered with similar circumstances in many other places where the military muscle is flexed.

My own view is that nowadays, fortunately, service personnel are more apt to consider the courses of action they are undertaking, it's no fun to march boldly into the unknown and offer your life as forfeit for some ill-conceived plan to control or destroy other societies, particularly (or even especially) when the cause of action is discovered to be either a misjudgment or even a political concoction.

No, I think the modern serviceman/woman is a little more robust in their ability to analyse that which is going on, maybe they value their lives a little more somewhat, hopefully the ability will expand and the true agendas given a little more consideration in the future......'Peace on Earth' perhaps.......doubt it BUT, one may only hope. 8)


I think that was a sound observation and I agree with you.

One thing you missed is that for Cyprus the CNG is mainly an Army of conscripts so they have no option but to serve their time and are not brain washed to any great degree except on the CP maybe. What we see on forums in Cyprus is retired career military people and they are driven through an indoctrinated view of events, they always know who is the bad guy ..... it is built into their psyche.

When they leave they do not change attitude overnight because they are to all intents in a rut of deception. Brain washed? They do not relate to the real World of what is happening around them. The younger generations have come up with the Internet and information availability ...... they, as you say, are far more likely to question events. I often feel that the best indication of this swing in the young and in the population in general, is to read the comments under any of the Putin/Russia bashing reports in the MSM. In my experience the vast majority do not accept the content and see it as just propaganda.

On the subject of ‘....when the lower ranks were more fearful of their officers’..... (and NCO’s) I have to tell you about Flt.Sgt Bettell! As a 16 year old straight out of school and a few weeks into an RAF Apprenticeship ......... this guy frightened the crap out of everybody ....... including some of the officers! :shock:

Flt.Sgt Bettell was short, fat, loud, swore every other word, was not too bright (I suppose you could say ignorant and without breeding) and to boot was a serial bully. His other charming attributes were weapons grade halitosis, nerve agent body odour and flatulence that could have been construed as an attack with chemical weapons. My only run-in with him was within weeks of signing up.

I had obviously replied to a question saying “ I thought .......”. I didn’t get any farther than that. He shoved his face into mine and screamed at me “You don’t f*****g think laddie, I f*****g think ..... you do as I f*****g tell you!” I felt suddenly sick, ready to throw up and almost collapsed, not out of fear but I had just had a first hand experience of being attacked with an array of chemical weapons! :shock:

I quickly realised to avoid problem and to avoid being singled out for ‘corrective attention’, it was best to keep a low profile. Luckily for me I got a good three year Apprenticeship that gave me the basic education to take up a career in engineering. They found a medical defect when I completed and was going into the RAF proper and they offered me two options. Go into admin or leave as an indulgence. I chose the latter!

My 18 months with the Territorial Army was for financial reasons rather than a desire to fight for Queen and Country. It was an interesting period and I learned a lot about another side of the military and also a lot about me. So it served a double benefit. But I was 16 some 60 years ago ..... my, how time flies! :roll: :wink:
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:32 pm

A few articles I found interesting ........

United Nations Special Meeting on Alleged Poisoning of Spy - Video

Russia warns UK it is 'playing with fire' at emergency UN meeting.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49144.htm


Novi-Fog™ In Fleet Street - Truth Cut Off - By Moon Of Alabama

Having been caught lying and covering up his lies about the Salisbury incident, the British Foreign Minister Boris Johnson decided to attack:

A pity endeavor. It was the lies of Theresa May and Boris Johnson that convinced the other countries, not any factual evidence:

BERLIN (Reuters) - Britain needs to show proof that Russia was behind last month’s poisoning of a former Russian double agent and his daughter in England, the German government’s coordinator for Russia said on Thursday.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49145.htm

The Lies Of The Imperialist Powers Over The Skripal Affair Unravel - By Robert Stevens

On September 1, 1939, German radio announced the outbreak of the Second World War by reporting Adolf Hitler’s speech to the Reichstag, in which the dictator said, “This night for the first time Polish regular soldiers fired on our own territory. We have been returning the fire since 5:45 A.M. Henceforth, bomb will be met with bomb.”

Under the direction of Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, the invasion of Poland was portrayed as an act of self-defence.

A similar resort to lying and demonization has been carried out by the British, American and several European governments around the March 4 poisoning in Salisbury, England of former Russian double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia.

It is now beyond any reasonable doubt that the claims of the Conservative government of Theresa May charging Russia with responsibility for the poisoning of the Skripals are fabrications.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49146.htm


Will Putin Fall for Washington’s Lies? - By Paul Craig Roberts

I have been waiting to see how long the British Prime Minister, the British Foreign Secretary, and the British Defense Secretary could continue to lie through their teeth before it caught up with them.

The liars got away with their lies longer than would have been possible if there was any longer any respect for truth in Western governments and media.

The British Foreign Secretary announced publicly that he was personally told by someone at the Porton Down laboratory that it was “absolutely categorical” that the nerve gas allegedly used in an attack on Skripal and his daughter came from Russia. The chief executive of the Porton Down laboratory has now stated that the scientists at the laboratory cannot confirm that the nerve agent is Russian.

Unlike NIST, which the US government forced to lie about how the World Trade Center buildings were destroyed, the British government was unable to force the Porton Down scientists to lie, or to lie enough. Consequently, the British government deleted its postings on social media.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49148.htm



Russophobia in the New Cold War - By Stephen F. Cohen

Several factors make this US-Russian Cold War more dangerous than its predecessor—is “Russo-madness” one of them?

Stephen F. Cohen, professor emeritus of Russian Studies and Politics at NYU and Princeton, and John Batchelor continue their (usually) weekly discussions of the new US-Russian Cold War. (Previous instalments, now in their fourth year, are at TheNation.com.)

Cohen has previously explained why the new Cold War is potentially even more dangerous than was its 40-year predecessor, citing factors such as the political epicenter’s now being on Russia’s borders, lack of a mutual code of conduct, and the unprecedented demonization of the Kremlin leader. He had not much considered the role of Russophobia because he thought it had not been a large causal factor, unlike anti-Communism, in the preceding one, recalling an episode in his own family and, more importantly, the words of George Kennan, the architect of containment, in 1951, about the Russian people: “Give them time; let them be Russians; let them work out their internal problems in their own manner…towards dignity and enlightenment in government.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49143.htm



Mass Deception and the Prelude to World War - By Colin Todhunter

In Libya, NATO bombed a path to Tripoli to help its proxy forces on the ground oust Gaddafi. Tens of thousands lost their lives and that country’s social fabric and infrastructure now lies in ruins. Gaddafi was murdered and his plans to assert African independence and undermine Western (not least French) hegemony on that continent have been rendered obsolete.
In Syria, the US, Turkey, France, Britain, Saudi Arabia and Qatar have been helping to arm militants. The Daily Telegraph’s March 2013 article “US and Europe in ‘major airlift of arms to Syrian rebels through Zagreb’” reported that 3,000 tons of weapons dating back to the former Yugoslavia had been sent in 75 planeloads from Zagreb airport to the rebels. The New York Times March 2013 article “Arms Airlift to Syria Rebels Expands, With CIA Aid” stated that Arab governments and Turkey had sharply increased their military aid to Syria’s opposition fighters. This aid included more than 160 military cargo flights.

Quote:

The countries of the West are effectively heading for war with Russia but relatively few among the public seem to know or even care. Many are oblivious to the slaughter that has already been inflicted on populations with the help of their taxes and governments in far-away lands. With the reckless neoconservative warmonger John Bolton now part of the Trump administration, it seems we could be hurtling towards major war much faster than previously thought.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/49147.htm
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:32 pm

Robin Hood wrote:LR

You prove once again that to reason with you is a waste of time. You have to make it personal!


Did I? :? that wasn't my intention. IIRC you floated the idea (one which you've done many times in the past) that the mindset of anybody who's been in their respective armed forces is such that they don't have the mental flexibility to arrive at reasonable conclusions. That, due to their "programming". Doesn't that constitute "personal"? Seriously?

That's not "reasoning" with me, it's an attempt to establish a loaded playing field. Did I get it wrong? I merely pointed out how ludicrous that idea is and also that you yourself had been through the same basic training. Although of course, you've proven that you're immune. Unlike me it seems.


Robin Hood wrote:You are a dinosaur from the age of British Empire, a cold war and a USSR. You have failed to come to terms with the fact there is no British Empire, the cold war ended many years ago and so did the USSR but not for you obviously? In your perception anything that refutes your views of World events in the MSM is by definition fake news or a conspiracy theory. As I tried to explain, our mindsets operate differently. You accept these things .... I don’t, I need proof or at least a better than 50:50 probability.


:lol: What on Earth are you on about? Total bollox. What exactly is it that's lead you to that risible conclusion, other than the fact that I can meet you face-to-face on most issues, equal terms? I couldn't give - searches for an appropriate expression - oh, there it is from one of your recent posts! A flying fuck about the British Empire, cold war or the - RIP - USSR. I'm deliriously content, spending my twilight years living on a paradise island, surrounded by lots of good friends, etc. Just like Milti (well, without the fishing and sunrises).None of whom I would ever consider asking to pay you a visit :roll:

Robin Hood wrote:You ask why in all these years I have never criticised Russia. The answer is very simple ...... because I have never found them to be in default of International Law. There are a myriad of accusations from ‘... the other side’ .... but they are never backed by facts. The same does not apply to the US and its allies.


I am pleased to hear you confirm (trust me if you're reading this - that's a very, very rare thing) that, actually, you have never - once - deviated from the Moscow line. IIRC, something you refuted in the previous post "WRONG!"

As far as international law is concerned they clearly and demonstrably have been in contravention with their actions in the Ukraine. We've had this conversation before! At the time I posted a link (s?) to an article - not from some crackpot site but an august and respected body to show why. You found it unpalatable and blitzed me with obfuscating chaff, which I ignored.


Robin Hood wrote:. But it does not stop the UK Ambassador to the UN from throwing out the same unfounded accusation along with Crimea, Georgia etc. whist ignoring their own culpability. The US alone has been responsible for 20 million civilian deaths since WWII. So 'Holier than thou' doesn't work for me!


Blah, blah, blah (is that libelous? :wink: ). Yakovenko stood up yesterday and said:

Novichok doesn't exist. It's a myth, created by the USA.

The British public were on his side.

Skirpal (convicted as a traitor to the Motherland and imprisoned for spying against Russia) was "our people" and would be welcomed back to Russia. Celebrity status it seems. :roll:

The use of a WMD on the streets of an English town, in an attempt to kill Skirpal, was an MI5 plot to distract from Brexit problems. :lol:

then

What happened to Sergei Skirpal was "a tragic accident". :?

President Putin never said "Traitors will kick the bucket" Please see previous YouTube video.

He delivered all of this with a huge grin on his face. Pausing between reading out bits of his brief. He reminded me of Micky Flanagan, waiting for the laughing to subside. It was all a big joke you see. Although, if you accept the use of a WMD on the streets of the UK as such - well.

Only true believers (aka "useful idiots") would swallow all this rubbish.


Robin Hood wrote:So let’s just agree to differ. I have a different and much broader approach for my analysis of World events. :roll:



Yes, we do differ. I am a bully and you are the innocent victim. Although, I paraphrase Freud here - talking about women of course - what do you want? For ages you argued bitterly with Paphitis. No libel of course "Fuckwit" "Dickhead" not the sort of terms I have ever used, etc, etc. When he left, for an extended period, we saw post after post "If Paphitis were here I'm sure he would say......" "Paphitis was proven wrong!" "No doubt Paphitis would have said..............". Etc. You really had nobody to talk to. It got to the point where you said - and I agreed :shock: - that "this site is on life support". So again - what do you want? If Paphitis and I stopped posting you would literally be talking to yourself. Yet, you persist in giving the impression that's exactly what you want. It's very confusing. :?
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:14 pm

LR.
• I tried a long explanation 5/4 at 08;12, in answer to your question. ......... it didn’t work!

• You first lengthy epistle followed 5/4 at 10:12 ....... nothing but your personal opinion of me but you don’t have time to post on the OP. Maybe you have your priorities wrong? :roll:

• On the 6/4 a troll type post at 10:32 .......... not much of any note, much of it incorrect but obviously intended to provoke a response.

• The same day at 16:44 I reply to your troll at 10:32 and 99% of it was related to your on topic post and with nothing of a personal nature.

• Again same day and time I posted a short précis related to my explanation as you had obviously not got the message and of that just one paragraph was of a personal nature. The rest was on topic.

• At 17:52 I posted a moderate length response to Schnauser
.
• I then posted links to 6 articles at 18:32 all topic related.

• At 20.32 you post another lengthy epistle and once again it’s all about me, and your usual sarcasm and attempts at amusing anecdotes. :roll:

Why don’t you find someone else to troll? I am afraid your heart rending epistles are not really that interesting ...... but I suppose it’s what keeps you happy! It is obviously confusing for you, which is one of the problems of only ever seeing one side of the argument.

BTW: Has it occurred to you that maybe your dogs are trying to get away from you? :roll: My little friend never leaves my side, day or night ..... we don’t have any fences and the doors are always open.? Have you tried visiting a dog therapist? :D
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:34 pm

Robin Hood wrote:LR.
• I tried a long explanation 5/4 at 08;12, in answer to your question. ......... it didn’t work!

• You first lengthy epistle followed 5/4 at 10:12 ....... nothing but your personal opinion of me but you don’t have time to post on the OP. Maybe you have your priorities wrong?

• On the 6/4 a troll type post at 10:32 .......... not much of any note, much of it incorrect but obviously intended to provoke a response.

• The same day at 16:44 I reply to your troll at 10:32 and 99% of it was related to your on topic post and with nothing of a personal nature.

• Again same day and time I posted a short précis related to my explanation as you had obviously not got the message and of that just one paragraph was of a personal nature. The rest was on topic.

• At 17:52 I posted a moderate length response to Schnauser
.
• I then posted links to 6 articles at 18:32 all topic related.

• At 20.32 you post another lengthy epistle and once again it’s all about me, and your usual sarcasm and attempts at amusing anecdotes.

Why don’t you find someone else to troll? I am afraid your heart rending epistles are not really that interesting ...... but I suppose it’s what keeps you happy! It is obviously confusing for you, which is one of the problems of only ever seeing one side of the argument.

BTW: Has it occurred to you that maybe your dogs are trying to get away from you? :roll: My little friend never leaves my side, day or night ..... we don’t have any fences and the doors are always open.? Have you tried visiting a dog therapist? :D


And, let me get this straight. I'm "personal". You're the "victim" and I am the - "bully" :lol:

Awkward points, like the Russian Ambassador's laugh-in yesterday, are difficult to answer, I appreciate. Best avoided. :wink:

For old time's sake, at least. I'm going to be here - just like Paphitis - to help you out. Forever and ever and............. You have to have somebody to talk to, after all. :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The dogs thing was a joke. I appreciate that you have a problem with that concept. Let me help you out: https://www.google.com/search?ei=xMnHWr ... k2NVNEzFsI

Sweet dreams. Well, unless you spend the night thinking about how you can "get back" and decide to send me a poison pen message. How did that work out? :roll:
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Schnauzer » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:35 pm

Londonrake wrote:Schnauzer.

May I ask? How long were you in the military and in what capacity'

I'm glad that nowadays not every other word is in capitals. :D


I did not respond to your questions, I was absolutely out of the game at the time having just completed a thirty-six hour course in the open countryside (annual event) and I was as tired as an overworked hound-dog, still not really up to snuff but will communicate some details once I have had a good long sleep.

Certainly did not intend to leave you with the impression that I had ignored you. :oops:
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Re: The Skripal poisoning affair ..... was it Russia/Putin?

Postby Londonrake » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:43 pm

Schnauzer wrote:
Londonrake wrote:Schnauzer.

May I ask? How long were you in the military and in what capacity'

I'm glad that nowadays not every other word is in capitals. :D


I did not respond to your questions, I was absolutely out of the game at the time having just completed a thirty-six hour course in the open countryside (annual event) and I was as tired as an overworked hound-dog, still not really up to snuff but will communicate some details once I have had a good long sleep.

Certainly did not intend to leave you with the impression that I had ignored you. :oops:


NP

It's difficult to get a foothold in here - as an outsider. Although, I follow all of the threads.

I love this country. I've been coming here since 1975. So sorry that it's tragically divided and subject to such nefarious political fortunes. I wish you all the best.
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