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Political equality

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Re: Political equality

Postby Kikapu » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:52 pm

4 freedoms apply to all EU citizens, as well as all those those who are legally allowed to reside in EU countries.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Lordo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:17 am

Kikapu wrote:4 freedoms apply to all EU citizens, as well as all those those who are legally allowed to reside in EU countries.

you are forgetting one very small group of people. it will also apply to all those who legally reside in TRNC. all legal like you know what i mean.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Kikapu » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:10 am

Lordo wrote:
Kikapu wrote:4 freedoms apply to all EU citizens, as well as all those those who are legally allowed to reside in EU countries.

you are forgetting one very small group of people. it will also apply to all those who legally reside in TRNC. all legal like you know what i mean.


Illegal Aliens in the "trnc" will need to get legalized first before they can exercise the 4 freedoms and to become EU citizens. That will be part of the settlement process and agreements given by the RoC and the EU. No blank cheques will be issued.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Lordo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:17 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Lordo wrote:
Kikapu wrote:4 freedoms apply to all EU citizens, as well as all those those who are legally allowed to reside in EU countries.

you are forgetting one very small group of people. it will also apply to all those who legally reside in TRNC. all legal like you know what i mean.


Illegal Aliens in the "trnc" will need to get legalized first before they can exercise the 4 freedoms and to become EU citizens. That will be part of the settlement process and agreements given by the RoC and the EU. No blank cheques will be issued.

on youtr bike my friend. the whole point of a peace treaty is you get what you find. not just trnc citizens but also all those who reside in the TRNC legally will be entitled to the 4 freedoms. if we cannot decide who is legal in the trnc ad who is not, the system falls on the first hurdle. there is no political equality.

by all means we can have federal level rules applied to future migration.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:12 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:https://cyprus-mail.com/2019/02/10/akincis-idea-of-political-equality-equates-to-political-inequality-president-says/
According to Anastasiades:

But if by ‘political equality’ he means a positive vote for every decision of the central government or any other institutional structure, then I am sorry to say, this is not political equality, but it creates political inequality for the reason that it will allow one community to impose itself on the other.”

Can someone analyze this?


I thought we have done it many times, Pyro.

Basically, Akinci wants a veto vote on everything, in which case, political equality (on man one vote) is replaced by political inequality (minority rule over majority). Veto vote = 100% vote for the minority.


Kikapu, let me tell you that I disagree both with Anastasiades and Akinci.

For a start the GC side accepted political equality of the states, and also accepted bi-commonality of the Federation meaning that each of the 2 fed-states will be ruled primarily by GCs and the other by TCs. This by itself creates inequality between the two communities since the Gcs are the majority and the TCs the minority that normally shouldn't have an equal say. It is clear under this BBF with political equality agreement that the minority would get 3-4 times larger power than the population it represents
However this is something that the GCs already accepted! I completely disagree with Anastasiades that it would make the TC community impose it's will on the GCs. It will simply not let the GCs do what they (as majority) want. But at the same time it won't let the TC community do what they want!

On the other hand Akinci wants this political equality to extend on each and every level of the Central government. (He wants rotating Presidency too!) In other words he wants a highly paid TC official to be everywhere, not only to important key positions where serious decisions would be taken, but everywhere. Question is who is going to pay all those officials? Is he sure his own people will be able to fund them considering each one will be receiving 3000+ Euros per month? Akinci thinks it's going to be raining Euros after a solution or the GCs been the majority are going to pay all that money to support his stupid demand of having a highly paid TC at every position whose salary will of course be paid mostly by the GCs. Who on top of everything will be throwing vetos at will, and eventually end up to receiving more money from lubrication from GCs to get things done...

Imo if the Gcs are really honest about the political equality the should accept to have TC officials at the Fed with veto.
And if the TCs are really honest about the political equality they should settle to the few key sectors of the Fed that really matter.
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Re: Political equality

Postby B25 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:58 pm

Personally I think the TCs should bugger off back to Turkey and live under Erdocunts rules and leave us in peace.

With the way this is going, it'll be the 1960's all over again and this was the very cause of the communal strife back then.

Seriously, why the F do we put up with this shit?
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Re: Political equality

Postby Lordo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:45 pm

those were the days. feb 2014 what a good day was that. is he trying to get out of this one too. i think not.

The two leaders had their first meeting today under the auspices of the UN Secretary General’s Good Offices mission. The meeting was held in a friendly and cordial atmosphere and the two leaders have agreed to the following:

1. The status quo is unacceptable and its prolongation will have negative consequences for the Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. The leaders affirmed that a settlement would have a positive impact on the entire region, while first and foremost benefiting Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, respecting democratic principles, human rights and fundamental freedoms, as well as each other’s distinct identity and integrity and ensuring their common future in a united Cyprus within the European Union.
2. The leaders expressed their determination to resume structured negotiations in a results-oriented manner. All unresolved core issues will be on the table, and will be discussed interdependently. The leaders will aim to reach a settlement as soon as possible, and hold separate simultaneous referenda thereafter.
3. The settlement will be based on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation with political equality, as set out in the relevant Security Council Resolutions and the High Level Agreements. The united Cyprus, as a member of the United Nations and of the European Union, shall have a single international legal personality and a single sovereignty, which is defined as the sovereignty which is enjoyed by all member States of the United Nations under the UN Charter and which emanates equally from Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. There will be a single united Cyprus citizenship, regulated by federal law. All citizens of the united Cyprus shall also be citizens of either the Greek-Cypriot constituent state or the Turkish-Cypriot constituent state. This status shall be internal and shall complement, and not substitute in any way, the united Cyprus citizenship.
The powers of the federal government, and like matters that are clearly incidental to its specified powers, will be assigned by the constitution. The Federal constitution will also provide for the residual powers to be exercised by the constituent states. The constituent states will exercise fully and irrevocably all their powers, free from encroachment by the federal government. The federal laws will not encroach upon constituent state laws, within the constituent states’ area of competences, and the constituent states’ laws will not encroach upon the federal laws within the federal government’s competences. Any dispute in respect thereof will be adjudicated finally by the Federal Supreme Court. Neither side may claim authority or jurisdiction over the other.
4. The united Cyprus federation shall result from the settlement following the settlement’s approval by separate simultaneous referenda. The Federal constitution shall prescribe that the united Cyprus federation shall be composed of two constituent states of equal status. The bi-zonal, bi-communal nature of the federation and the principles upon which the EU is founded will be safeguarded and respected throughout the island. The Federal constitution shall be the supreme law of the land and will be binding on all the federation’s authorities and on the constituent states. Union in whole or in part with any other country or any form of partition or secession or any other unilateral change to the state of affairs will be prohibited.
5. The negotiations are based on the principle that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
6. The appointed representatives are fully empowered to discuss any issue at any time and should enjoy parallel access to all stakeholders and interested parties in the process, as needed. The leaders of the two communities will meet as often as needed. They retain the ultimate decision making power. Only an agreement freely reached by the leaders may be put to separate simultaneous referenda. Any kind of arbitration is excluded.
7. The sides will seek to create a positive atmosphere to ensure the talks succeed. They commit to avoiding blame games or other negative public comments on the negotiations. They also commit to efforts to implement confidence building measures that will provide a dynamic impetus to the prospect for a united Cyprus.

of course there is always the choice of two states.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Kikapu » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:41 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:https://cyprus-mail.com/2019/02/10/akincis-idea-of-political-equality-equates-to-political-inequality-president-says/
According to Anastasiades:

But if by ‘political equality’ he means a positive vote for every decision of the central government or any other institutional structure, then I am sorry to say, this is not political equality, but it creates political inequality for the reason that it will allow one community to impose itself on the other.”

Can someone analyze this?


I thought we have done it many times, Pyro.

Basically, Akinci wants a veto vote on everything, in which case, political equality (on man one vote) is replaced by political inequality (minority rule over majority). Veto vote = 100% vote for the minority.


Kikapu, let me tell you that I disagree both with Anastasiades and Akinci.

For a start the GC side accepted political equality of the states, and also accepted bi-commonality of the Federation meaning that each of the 2 fed-states will be ruled primarily by GCs and the other by TCs. This by itself creates inequality between the two communities since the Gcs are the majority and the TCs the minority that normally shouldn't have an equal say. It is clear under this BBF with political equality agreement that the minority would get 3-4 times larger power than the population it represents
However this is something that the GCs already accepted! I completely disagree with Anastasiades that it would make the TC community impose it's will on the GCs. It will simply not let the GCs do what they (as majority) want. But at the same time it won't let the TC community do what they want!

On the other hand Akinci wants this political equality to extend on each and every level of the Central government. (He wants rotating Presidency too!) In other words he wants a highly paid TC official to be everywhere, not only to important key positions where serious decisions would be taken, but everywhere. Question is who is going to pay all those officials? Is he sure his own people will be able to fund them considering each one will be receiving 3000+ Euros per month? Akinci thinks it's going to be raining Euros after a solution or the GCs been the majority are going to pay all that money to support his stupid demand of having a highly paid TC at every position whose salary will of course be paid mostly by the GCs. Who on top of everything will be throwing vetos at will, and eventually end up to receiving more money from lubrication from GCs to get things done...

Imo if the Gcs are really honest about the political equality the should accept to have TC officials at the Fed with veto.
And if the TCs are really honest about the political equality they should settle to the few key sectors of the Fed that really matter.


Pyro,

If BBF is formed something like the USA where all states are politically equal to each other regardless of it's population size, I do not see a problem with this despite the GC state having greater population than the TC state. This political equality comes in the form of the upper house only, where each state has 2 senators from each state. California has 2 senators in the US senate with it's 35 million + population where Wyoming also has 2 senators in the US senate with less than 1 million population.

In the house of representatives, the numbers of reps will be based on the population numbers, which the GCs will have the majority and each state having equal numbers of senators. This is what power sharing is under normal conditions. Under this system, there can be no Rotating Presidency. Elected president needs to be chosen by popular vote by the majority, regardless if the president is a GC or a TC.

There cannot be such thing as a Veto vote either since it would defeat the whole purpose of political equality, since a veto vote is 100% political inequality.

Further more, there cannot be any guarantor powers nor intervention rights by anyone, so Turkey needs to pack up and go home taking most of the Illegal Aliens in the north with her.

But since the TCs nor Turkey will not agree to the above, the status quo will continue as the GCs will not accept anything less.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:11 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:https://cyprus-mail.com/2019/02/10/akincis-idea-of-political-equality-equates-to-political-inequality-president-says/
According to Anastasiades:

But if by ‘political equality’ he means a positive vote for every decision of the central government or any other institutional structure, then I am sorry to say, this is not political equality, but it creates political inequality for the reason that it will allow one community to impose itself on the other.”

Can someone analyze this?


I thought we have done it many times, Pyro.

Basically, Akinci wants a veto vote on everything, in which case, political equality (on man one vote) is replaced by political inequality (minority rule over majority). Veto vote = 100% vote for the minority.


Kikapu, let me tell you that I disagree both with Anastasiades and Akinci.

For a start the GC side accepted political equality of the states, and also accepted bi-commonality of the Federation meaning that each of the 2 fed-states will be ruled primarily by GCs and the other by TCs. This by itself creates inequality between the two communities since the Gcs are the majority and the TCs the minority that normally shouldn't have an equal say. It is clear under this BBF with political equality agreement that the minority would get 3-4 times larger power than the population it represents
However this is something that the GCs already accepted! I completely disagree with Anastasiades that it would make the TC community impose it's will on the GCs. It will simply not let the GCs do what they (as majority) want. But at the same time it won't let the TC community do what they want!

On the other hand Akinci wants this political equality to extend on each and every level of the Central government. (He wants rotating Presidency too!) In other words he wants a highly paid TC official to be everywhere, not only to important key positions where serious decisions would be taken, but everywhere. Question is who is going to pay all those officials? Is he sure his own people will be able to fund them considering each one will be receiving 3000+ Euros per month? Akinci thinks it's going to be raining Euros after a solution or the GCs been the majority are going to pay all that money to support his stupid demand of having a highly paid TC at every position whose salary will of course be paid mostly by the GCs. Who on top of everything will be throwing vetos at will, and eventually end up to receiving more money from lubrication from GCs to get things done...

Imo if the Gcs are really honest about the political equality the should accept to have TC officials at the Fed with veto.
And if the TCs are really honest about the political equality they should settle to the few key sectors of the Fed that really matter.


Pyro,

If BBF is formed something like the USA where all states are politically equal to each other regardless of it's population size, I do not see a problem with this despite the GC state having greater population than the TC state. This political equality comes in the form of the upper house only, where each state has 2 senators from each state. California has 2 senators in the US senate with it's 35 million + population where Wyoming also has 2 senators in the US senate with less than 1 million population.

In the house of representatives, the numbers of reps will be based on the population numbers, which the GCs will have the majority and each state having equal numbers of senators. This is what power sharing is under normal conditions. Under this system, there can be no Rotating Presidency. Elected president needs to be chosen by popular vote by the majority, regardless if the president is a GC or a TC.

There cannot be such thing as a Veto vote either since it would defeat the whole purpose of political equality, since a veto vote is 100% political inequality.

Further more, there cannot be any guarantor powers nor intervention rights by anyone, so Turkey needs to pack up and go home taking most of the Illegal Aliens in the north with her.

But since the TCs nor Turkey will not agree to the above, the status quo will continue as the GCs will not accept anything less.


I personally gave up all hope Kikapu.
It's not only this. Anastasiades already accepted unimaginable things for the GCs. Did you know that almost nobody will get his property back and almost all will get compensated and I mean including you who left your property behind in the RoC controlled areas, which some GC is currently using temporarily imish (oh yes there's nothing more permanent than the temporary).
Presumably everybody will be compensated from the natural gas resources. As for the settlers he already agreed that everybody who got trnc citizenship would stay.
Imo this guy backed off the last minute when he realized that such solution will never be accepted by the GCs. He is now betting his last card on the mater of Guarantees.

I think it's over Kikapu. :cry:
Last edited by Pyrpolizer on Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Political equality

Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:24 pm

When this guy Anastasiades was elected I kept warning everyone in this forum that this guy represents the big sharks among the capitalists in Cyprus.
He won't hesitate to agree to ANY solution that would allow his ilk (both TCs and GCs) take a big bite out of the hydrocarbons for themselves. He was the only supporter of the Anan plan after all.
Plans went wrong when Turkey itself started wanting another big junk for herself.
Chavousoglu said Anastasiades eventually proposed him to have a partition agreement!!! It does fit well with my suspicions. The worse is yet to come...
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