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what next?

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Re: what next?

Postby erolz66 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:27 am

Lordo wrote:poor b'stard he may not even be allowed to hold his vote on the deal as it breaks the tax laws.


A law designed and sponsored by the ERG group with the specific intent of tying Teresa Mays hands and limiting her negotiating position with the EU to options that this group wanted and that was voted for by the likes of Mogg and Johnson. Heaven forbid anyone dare suggest that these people have any culpability at all for the reality that Brexit has not yet been delivered. Any blocking moves they make, any limits they force on the PM in terms of negotiation with the EU in order to get what they want are in no way related to Brexit not being delivered. Oh no. Such blame can of course only accrue to those who voted to remain in the EU in 2016.
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Re: what next?

Postby Lordo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:03 pm

there you have it, b'stard has negotiated a deal with the eu where it gives us control. Interesting because we never lost control, but don't let him or you bother with such insignificant detail.
btw dup punched a few keys on their laptop and it the computer says no.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50079385?ns_source=facebook&ns_linkname=news_central&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_daily_politics_and_sunday_politics&fbclid=IwAR13bA_GRE-MXsmhUqrB78Oev6Dtjci3oh1OgNdDIzcI4357IMC7T4L-rzc&fbclid=IwAR2jqSpIEmCRSAG0vCnTvaRiECefWNsiQ5fkXSRtfxVVdpvHY_Wp_RuUeO4&fbclid=IwAR27YzNXFgSPCp8VANGP0KgMOB3XJDP2XrPkz9Wco66IhgSnrYRQ8fLk7W8

and here is how we never lost control in the first place. there is nothong like promissing somethng we already have and then claiming the credit for it. it keeps the mushrooms happy they seem to thrive on bullshit.

The UK’s rights to control its borders and to check anyone entering the UK no matter where they come from are explained below.
• Like all EU Member States, the UK is subject to obligations to ensure the freedom of EU citizens to move and reside freely within the EU. Freedom of movement of workers and rights of establishment in other Member States were fundamental aspects of the common market well before the UK joined the EEC in 1973 and have remained of significance to the internal market programme.
• These rights do not undermine the UK’s ability to control its borders, for three principal reasons.
o First, the largest category of migrants to the UK come from outside the EU, and are not entitled to rely on EU laws on freedom of movement.The UK’s ability to restrict entry to this group is unaffected by its membership of the EU.
o Secondly, whereas many Member States have replaced individual controls with a common policy at their common frontier (known as the Schengen Area), the UK chose to retain its right to independent border control and is entitled to check the identity of every individual entering the country.
o Thirdly, EU law does not provide nationals from other EU Member States with an unlimited right to enter or remain in the UK. Most importantly, the right to live in the UK without any conditions or formalities only lasts for three months. In addition, the right is subject to limitations “on grounds of public policy, public security or public health”. Specifically, the UK retains the right to restrict the freedom of movement and residence of EU citizens and their family members, where their personal conduct represents “a genuine, present and sufficiently serious threat affecting one of the fundamental interests of society” and the home Member State of any expelled EU nationals must allow those nationals to re-enter their territory.
• The debate about economic migration within the EU needs to be put into context. While immigration is an emotive topic and can cause substantial social unrest, freedom of movement within the EU internal market helps address skill shortages and the consequences of an ageing population. According to the OECD, migrants are more likely to be net contributors if they are younger, in work and skilled. The evidence suggests that on average, EU migrants make a net contribution to UK public finances. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that immigration will reduce public sector net debt as a share of UK GDP over the long term relative to the levels it would otherwise reach.
• As well as tightening up the rules on sham marriages and on suspected terrorists and criminals coming to the UK, the recently agreed Settlement introduces an “emergency brake” to restrict EU migrants in the UK claiming in-work benefits for a period of up to four years. This restriction is operable over a seven-year period. The Settlement also gives the UK an option to index child benefit payments to the cost of living in the country where the child resides, for all new arrivals to the UK. This mechanism can be extended to all existing workers from 1 January 2020
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Re: what next?

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:40 pm

Local media say it's identical to Theresa May's deal, only the name of the backstop changed.
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Re: what next?

Postby erolz66 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:16 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Local media say it's identical to Theresa May's deal, only the name of the backstop changed.


It is very much the original deal the EU proposed to TM that she refused and instead went for a 'UK wide' backstop rather than NI only one. The granting of some democratic say after a set period as to the continuation of these arrangements to a stormont simple majority (no unionist minority veto) is 'new' I think. However what we have not yet seen is the changes to the political deceleration and this ultimately is more important even though not legally binding. The TM version of the political deceleration, whilst not aiming for continued participation in a customs union or the single market, did aim for a level of 'closeness' in the final UK / EU trading arrangements with commitments to maintain a 'level playing field' on things like workers rights, environmental protection and food standards. We do not yet know if these have been removed or maintained by Johnson. If they are removed then getting support from Labour MP's will be that much harder and if they are maintained the likes of Tory MP's like Ian Duncan Smith will not vote for the deal. For people like him the whole point of leaving the EU is so the UK can role back such things as workers rights and protections.
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Re: what next?

Postby Londonrake » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:44 pm

When I had the pleasure of meeting up with CG not too long ago he said that he sometimes drops off this forum for a while but whenever he came back absolutely nothing had changed. It was exactly like his last day on here. Basically, he hadn't missed a thing.

I can confirm that. Although events may have moved on, it's the same people, saying basically the same old things over and over. Mostly to each other. Sorta, pat each other on the back stuff. :D

Blah, blah, blah, blah!

Or, in Lordo's case .........................................Blig, bleg, blorg, blek :lol:
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Re: what next?

Postby erolz66 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:53 pm

Londonrake wrote:When I had the pleasure of meeting up with CG not too long ago he said that he sometimes drops off this forum for a while but whenever he came back absolutely nothing had changed. It was exactly like his last day on here. Basically, he hadn't missed a thing.

I can confirm that. Although events may have moved on, it's the same people, saying basically the same old things over and over. Mostly to each other. Sorta, pat each other on the back stuff. :D

Blah, blah, blah, blah!

Or, in Lordo's case .........................................Blig, bleg, blorg, blek :lol:


Kind of hard to understand why you still participate in here at all then ? Even more so when that participation seems to be just to tell everyone your reasons for why such participation is of no value or interest to you.
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Re: what next?

Postby Londonrake » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:18 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Londonrake wrote:When I had the pleasure of meeting up with CG not too long ago he said that he sometimes drops off this forum for a while but whenever he came back absolutely nothing had changed. It was exactly like his last day on here. Basically, he hadn't missed a thing.

I can confirm that. Although events may have moved on, it's the same people, saying basically the same old things over and over. Mostly to each other. Sorta, pat each other on the back stuff. :D

Blah, blah, blah, blah!

Or, in Lordo's case .........................................Blig, bleg, blorg, blek :lol:


Kind of hard to understand why you still participate in here at all then ? Even more so when that participation seems to be just to tell everyone your reasons for why such participation is of no value or interest to you.


I've always stuck to the fundamentals - rather than the endless esoteric reasons you guys throw up (a concise explanation) to self delusionally explain all the reason why you're really the true "democrats". Don't let me stop your love in though. :wink:

Frankly, after 40 months of "debating" with you people I've accepted that it serves no purpose other than to make you feel better about your delusions.
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Re: what next?

Postby Lordo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:33 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Local media say it's identical to Theresa May's deal, only the name of the backstop changed.



nooo the name has not changed actually the backstop is no loger necessary as there is a border in the irish sea. that is what the backstop was going to cause till they had an effective method of trade where there are no check needed. there is no need for the insurance policy.
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Re: what next?

Postby erolz66 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:53 pm

Londonrake wrote:Frankly, after 40 months of "debating" with you people I've accepted that it serves no purpose other than to make you feel better about your delusions.


Well since the referendum result in mid 2016, where I made a bet with GR and some arguing about his welching on that bet following the result, I did not personally make a post about Brexit again until april 2019 and then never pro actively but only in reaction to blatant one sided pro active posts, one of which your own, from sources like guido. However if it makes you feel better about yourself to delude yourself that you have been 'debating' with me over Brexit for 40 months here, then you go for it and reality be dammed.

From my perspective, and that is all it is, in the scant few months I have 'debated' Brexit here with you, you have pro actively posted partisan sources, when I respond, you have responded with 'well I don't want to talk about Brexit' and have repeatedly used the line 'if that makes you feel better' to dismiss and avoid actually engaging with the points I have raised in response to your pro active posting of partisan sources. A classic 'ad homien' approach to debate imo. Even then I would not say, from my perspective, that such has served no purpose.
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Re: what next?

Postby Londonrake » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:23 pm

I’ve said, I think on several occasions, there really isn’t anything to debate or “engage” about. The fundamentals are quite simple and if beyond your (and similar others) capacity to accept then what’s there to discuss? I post because I like sticking a pin in what I regard as pompous outpourings here. Some even from people who have virtually no connection to the UK. What I don’t do is substitute this for reality. Spending hour upon hour in here every day.

FWIW, after reading all this stuff for quite a long time, it strikes me that a couple of our “Democrats” probably suffer from personality disorders which impact upon their daily lives. It’s not unusual to find this on forums, which act as a form of compensating mechanism, giving them an element of relief from trials suffered in the real world. Fascinating stuff actually.
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