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The risks to children of British public schools.

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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:54 am

Paphitis wrote:Child abuse can occur anywhere and also in Government Schools.


Yes it can and yes it does. My contention is it is statistically more likely to happen in a british independent school than a state one. The contention is easy to test. 20 minutes of time, 10. hell even 5. If the ratio is roughly equal for independent and state then for every report of such abuse in a public school there should be 10 from state schools. If however you want to believe they are equal, need to believe they are equal and fear testing the contention then that is your choice but it is not an argument against my contention. It am reminded of

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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:01 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:That assumption is incorrect.

The private sector is a very well run system.

The Catholic System in Australia teaches about 20% of all Australian children and academically they are superior. In fact, private schools as a whole, whether Catholic, Anglican (my children attend Anglican Schools), Lutheran and Orthodox are superior to the Public system. The standards are far greater, the facilities are better, classroom sizes are smaller, and they have the best teachers too because they pay 6 figure salaries.

The sports facilities and extra curricula activities are better organized, and best of all is the post graduation after care through the relevant post grad networks is well established and very closely knit. People win jobs just based on the Primary or Secondary School they attended.

For example, just like in the UK, if you attend such and such a school, you could be going places - just like Boris Johnson, or David Cameron.

This happens in Australia too. News Limited (Murdoch) for instance is full of Journos from a few certain schools and so on. The same can be said for the Medical and Legal fraternities and also politics.

I am a product of the Catholic System. And apart from getting called Satan before I got walloped, I can't say I really got abused or that the Sisters were bad. They were friends with my Mum and had coffee with her many times. I remember so many nice moments with them as well and that generally they were very protective of me or cared for all the children under their care. Ladies of God so what else can be said?

My children are attending Anglican Schools and the professionalism and standards here are extremely top shelf. It's faultless. But expensive. :shock:

They have to justify the fees they charge somehow, and there is no question in my mind that the children become very well grounded because of these schools.


Which assumption is wrong??
Erolz talked about the higher risk in private schools and provided a method to get it statistically.
He also talked that the system is such that tends to hide mistreatment of children in private schools.
I don't see anything wrong in those statements unless you want to believe they are wrong. Which by itself is another issue.

As for the ladies of God, give me a break. Religion is against nature, "getting married to God" and staying pure with no sex is perversion.
All sorts of sexual crimes derive from that, look at the church all around the world, all perverts who can't face reality end up in there.
Have you heard of the 2 nuns from Italy who went to Africa for preaching? Both returned pregnant! It was on the news just yesterday.

Even in my high school (kykkos Gymnasium for boys*) young female teachers who were in urgent need of a husband, were making clear passes on us... that's nature.

* NB. Thank God they abolished the system of separating the boys from girls in high schools. It was an anachronism even back then, but I was unlucky enough to be in one of the very few "separated" that existed.


There isn't a higher risk at private schools.

delinquency is far diminished, discipline is superior, academic performance is superior and the pupils perform better.

Those who are against private schools, can easily google and find horror stories of abuse and some of that is over hyped and there are sadly occasions where students were indeed abused but it is extremely rare. More chances to statistically die in a plane crash.

Statistically speaking, and I can tell you this from experience at least in Australia, and I would presume that it is the same situation in UK and USA and many EU countries as well, the children are more likely to have bad influences in the Government private Sector than at Saint Andrews College or Geelong Grammar which are the elite of the elite and where Prince William attended for a while, or Immanuel where the former King of Greece cut the ribbon.

The private sector in Australia is extremely well heeled and well controlled and they are BETTER schools than the public sector.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:08 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:That assumption is incorrect.

The private sector is a very well run system.

The Catholic System in Australia teaches about 20% of all Australian children and academically they are superior. In fact, private schools as a whole, whether Catholic, Anglican (my children attend Anglican Schools), Lutheran and Orthodox are superior to the Public system. The standards are far greater, the facilities are better, classroom sizes are smaller, and they have the best teachers too because they pay 6 figure salaries.

The sports facilities and extra curricula activities are better organized, and best of all is the post graduation after care through the relevant post grad networks is well established and very closely knit. People win jobs just based on the Primary or Secondary School they attended.

For example, just like in the UK, if you attend such and such a school, you could be going places - just like Boris Johnson, or David Cameron.

This happens in Australia too. News Limited (Murdoch) for instance is full of Journos from a few certain schools and so on. The same can be said for the Medical and Legal fraternities and also politics.

I am a product of the Catholic System. And apart from getting called Satan before I got walloped, I can't say I really got abused or that the Sisters were bad. They were friends with my Mum and had coffee with her many times. I remember so many nice moments with them as well and that generally they were very protective of me or cared for all the children under their care. Ladies of God so what else can be said?

My children are attending Anglican Schools and the professionalism and standards here are extremely top shelf. It's faultless. But expensive. :shock:

They have to justify the fees they charge somehow, and there is no question in my mind that the children become very well grounded because of these schools.


Which assumption is wrong??
Erolz talked about the higher risk in private schools and provided a method to get it statistically.
He also talked that the system is such that tends to hide mistreatment of children in private schools.
I don't see anything wrong in those statements unless you want to believe they are wrong. Which by itself is another issue.

As for the ladies of God, give me a break. Religion is against nature, "getting married to God" and staying pure with no sex is perversion.
All sorts of sexual crimes derive from that, look at the church all around the world, all perverts who can't face reality end up in there.
Have you heard of the 2 nuns from Italy who went to Africa for preaching? Both returned pregnant! It was on the news just yesterday.

Even in my high school (kykkos Gymnasium for boys*) young female teachers who were in urgent need of a husband, were making clear passes on us... that's nature.

* NB. Thank God they abolished the system of separating the boys from girls in high schools. It was an anachronism even back then, but I was unlucky enough to be in one of the very few "separated" that existed.


I'm an Agnostic but what I know to be against nature is all the current new age debauchery they teach in public schools.

I am more than happy for my children to be schooled in an Anglican school, or a Catholic, Lutheran or Orthodox School. Why? because I know what I am getting and that the children will be spared a lot of crap and I am also happy that they will be provided with some kind of moral compass even if that is religiously inspired in some way.

There is a reason why these schools charge a premium. Have you heard of supply and demand. they are sort after because these schools perform better academically. They are better disciplined and they will be part of a network of old scholars after they graduate and that should help them professionally or in business.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:15 am

Paphitis wrote:
There isn't a higher risk at private schools.

delinquency is far diminished, discipline is superior, academic performance is superior and the pupils perform better.

Those who are against private schools, can easily google and find horror stories of abuse and some of that is over hyped and there are sadly occasions where students were indeed abused but it is extremely rare. More chances to statistically die in a plane crash.

Statistically speaking, and I can tell you this from experience at least in Australia, and I would presume that it is the same situation in UK and USA and many EU countries as well, the children are more likely to have bad influences in the Government private Sector than at Saint Andrews College or Geelong Grammar which are the elite of the elite and where Prince William attended for a while, or Immanuel where the former King of Greece cut the ribbon.

The private sector in Australia is extremely well heeled and well controlled and they are BETTER schools than the public sector.


Paphitis let's assume the case of a dumb but RICH child. Will s/he ever perform better just because s/he attended a private school??
How do you measure performance on the first place? How do you separate performance from wealth?
I imply to you that the ONLY reason children attending private schools "perform" better in life, is not because of the school they attended, but because they are rich.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:19 am

Paphitis wrote:
I'm an Agnostic but what I know to be against nature is all the current new age debauchery they teach in public schools.

I am more than happy for my children to be schooled in an Anglican school, or a Catholic, Lutheran or Orthodox School. Why? because I know what I am getting and that the children will be spared a lot of crap and I am also happy that they will be provided with some kind of moral compass even if that is religiously inspired in some way.

There is a reason why these schools charge a premium. Have you heard of supply and demand. they are sort after because these schools perform better academically. They are better disciplined and they will be part of a network of old scholars after they graduate and that should help them professionally or in business.


You started talking nonsense again. So in public schools they teach debauchery eh? :lol: :lol:
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:26 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
I'm an Agnostic but what I know to be against nature is all the current new age debauchery they teach in public schools.

I am more than happy for my children to be schooled in an Anglican school, or a Catholic, Lutheran or Orthodox School. Why? because I know what I am getting and that the children will be spared a lot of crap and I am also happy that they will be provided with some kind of moral compass even if that is religiously inspired in some way.

There is a reason why these schools charge a premium. Have you heard of supply and demand. they are sort after because these schools perform better academically. They are better disciplined and they will be part of a network of old scholars after they graduate and that should help them professionally or in business.


You started talking nonsense again. So in public schools they teach debauchery eh? :lol: :lol:


Yes they do. They teach all kinds of stupid things and introduced weird programs espousing that there are 1000 genders and that children can identify as a cat, or that boys can wear a dress and use the female toilets which are now termed unisex. They have gone bonkers I tell you! :shock: And then they are worried about abuse at Private Schools. My arse!

I mean if you call that science then your as nutty as they are.

Teachers seem to have been injected with a stupidity serum from the Teachers College of Marxism and have gone all funny and nutso on us so we need our private schools as our very own safe space of sanity.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:38 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
There isn't a higher risk at private schools.

delinquency is far diminished, discipline is superior, academic performance is superior and the pupils perform better.

Those who are against private schools, can easily google and find horror stories of abuse and some of that is over hyped and there are sadly occasions where students were indeed abused but it is extremely rare. More chances to statistically die in a plane crash.

Statistically speaking, and I can tell you this from experience at least in Australia, and I would presume that it is the same situation in UK and USA and many EU countries as well, the children are more likely to have bad influences in the Government private Sector than at Saint Andrews College or Geelong Grammar which are the elite of the elite and where Prince William attended for a while, or Immanuel where the former King of Greece cut the ribbon.

The private sector in Australia is extremely well heeled and well controlled and they are BETTER schools than the public sector.


Paphitis let's assume the case of a dumb but RICH child. Will s/he ever perform better just because s/he attended a private school??
How do you measure performance on the first place? How do you separate performance from wealth?
I imply to you that the ONLY reason children attending private schools "perform" better in life, is not because of the school they attended, but because they are rich.


It depends what you mean by dumb. If they are just not academically minded, they will not progress and graduate but let me tell you this!

It is 100 times better for a rich 'dumb' kid to attend Saint Andrews for his schooling and not get far, than to attend a government public school. Why?

Because that rich 'dumb' kid is still considered to be an old scholar, and as such, some Billionaire like Murdoch will employ him or her in the mailroom over kids who attended Public schools because that rich "dumb" kid is better heeled from attending saint Andrews. But if the kid was rich anyway, he probably wouldn't need a job and could go into business. You know how many 'dumb' people are rich?

I'm sorry but that's how it works in the real world.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:58 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Erolz for a start I got confused of your terms public school Vs state school. Just curious, is this the terminology used in the UK?
In any case I will use the terms private Vs public (meaning state) schools in my post.


Yes thanks for pointing that out. I may go back and edit the OP to make things less confusing for those not familiar with the Orwellian newspeak nature of how such schools are labeled in the UK. Public school in the UK, public schoolboy or girl, in the UK means a private fee paying school.

Pyrpolizer wrote:The question is do such things still happen and go unpunished in the UK?
I mean even in Cyprus such things can almost never be hidden these days, and there are severe punishments ranging from getting fired to ending up in jail.


I can not stress enough that this is not 'just' about sexual abuse of children in schools. It is about how 'public' schools in the UK are structured and designed to be brutalising, That they were the product of a previous century. That we just do not and should not do this to our children any more. In one of those strange examples of 'co incidence' todays Guardian carries this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Gmail

This is what I am talking about. Yes attitudes to the sexual abuse of children in the UK have changed. In UK terms there is 'before Jimmy Saville' and post 'Jimmy Saville'. However if sexual abuse of children was removed entirely from society, the issues of the structural brutality of such schools systems would still remain. The focus on sexual abuse specifically is just the result of the calls to 'prove it'. That some of those here that made such calls to 'prove it' just turn around and say your proof is wrong without themselves taking even 5 minutes to test the proof, says something imo.

BTW the Guardian android app gives access to 'below the line' on articles such as these. To the comments of readers. The website does not seem to do this. In any case these can be and often are more interesting that the article itself. If anyone has any genuine interest in these issues I would recommend searching out these 'below the line' comments. People relating their own experiences good and bad. There is much 'data' there than can lead to better understanding.

If my contention is true, that such things are more prevalent in british public schools than state ones, the question becomes why is that so. The answers to this are many and complex but one aspect of them can be seen in Paphitis' responses in my opinion. This 'reverence' and 'respect' to and for 'higher / better' authority and experience is part of the of the equation. I never went to my parents and said 'do not send me back there, that man is doing bad things to me'. I did go to them and say things like 'let me do design and technology (basically woodworking) and not latin, I want to do DT. I dont want to do Latin'. So my parents would troop off and speak to the school and the school would say 'do not worry about what your child wants. We are the experts. We know what is best. That is what you are paying us for. It is better for him to do Latin and not DT'. That the reality was it was better for the school that I did Latin and not DT is immaterial. My parents, like lambs to the slaughter, in awe of the 'expertise' and 'superiority' of the 'experts' they were paying huge sums to because they were experts acquiesced. Latin it was. This 'dynamic' is intimately linked to how in so many cases sexual abuse in such schools even when reported was not stopped quickly enough. It is only one aspect but it a real one. It has parallels with the respect shown for institutions like the Catholic Church in places like Ireland and how this allowed abuse scandals to go on for so long in so many cases. The exposing of these scandals has led to profound and positive changes in Ireland. It is now more progressive than say NI on issues like abortion and same sex marriages and this is a direct result of the demolishing of the myth of the infallibility of the church as an institution. The church is no longer the all pervasive force on society it used to be and that is good. As an aside this is a process that still has a way to go in the RoC imo.

There are many other reasons why abuse is statistically more prevalent in public schools that sate in the UK. More than I can delve in to in this post alone. One aspect is related to the 'physical opportunity' that boarding presents. Not just physical access but the increase in vulnerability of the victim that such (enforced) boarding results in.

There is much else in Paphitis' post that is for me 'telling'. In terms of how and why does abuse at such schools not just happen more often in such schools but is allowed to go on for so long and in such plain sight. when he says "The Alumni of this school is very sophisticated and it reaches the Medical Boards of Australia, the Halls of Power and politics, and the Legal Fraternities" and "News Limited (Murdoch) for instance is full of Journos from a few certain schools and so on."
There is also much in his posts about the 'dynamics' of how such schools 'work'. About what it is you are really buying when you send your child to such. About how you are essentially buying access to an exclusive club for you children than can and does lead to them having access to higher paid jobs, to roles of 'power and prestige'. It is my experience that the idea such schools offer better teachers and teaching is simply a myth. I suspect that is true generically as well but providing the proof of this is not something that can be done easily. Something I did learn from going to such schools is that confidence is a 'trick'. From being in the somewhat unique position of having gone from poor to rich 'overnight' , having gone from a 'ghetto' north london state school to a prestigious public school in the leafy Hertfordshire countryside, I was able to notice many things. The kids in these better schools were no brighter than my previous one, no more hard working, no more able. The standard of teaching was not better and in my case markedly worse in some cases. So much of the whole edifice was built on illusion. On self fulfilling prophecy. On telling children, over and over that 'you are the elite, you are the ones that will go on to be the business leaders of the country, the political leaders of the country'. Such can and does lead to those children having a better chance of a higher paid job but at what cost to the child, their development, their ability to discover who they really are ?

Paphitis talks about his experience of being told as a child that he was 'possessed by the devil'. Now in his case that may not have damaged him in any way. Imagine however a 7 year old child, taken from the safety and security and love of their family and placed in a boarding environment being told by someone who is a representative God himself, that they are evil and wicked. That kind of thing can and does fuck people up for life. Is the chance of a higher paid job really worth the price of such damage ? This is why I believe educators should start from the same place that doctors do. First and before anything else 'do no harm' or 'do as little harm as possible'.

Oh I could go on and on and on.

When I got up this morning my partner said 'have you seen the Guardian front page today yet ? Looks like you have started something'. I did not start this. What 'started' this was the the Labour party conference resolution on public schools. When I read about that my immediate thought was 'yes' and 'about time'. Being the kind of person I am I did not just go 'yes' and 'about time'. I started a process of asking myself why do I instinctively support the idea of change. This in turn lead me to think about my own school days and experience. It lead me to, for the first time, searching 'Aldwickbury Mr Brown'. I was not surprised to be met with the Times article I linked to earlier. It is time we as a society faced these issues, discussed them, bring them out in to the light. The Labour part resolution is starting this process. For me individually and society generally. We do not need to do this to our children any more. I do not raise these things because I hate the rich, envy the rich. I raise them because no child, not even the children of the rich should have to face such risks such life defining damage anymore. It is 2016 not 1916 or 1816. It is time for real change.

just a few more 'resources'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/041569003X/ ... WDbHPQHA2V
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Gmail (again I recommend searching out the juice that is in the below the line comments)
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby B25 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:29 pm

Question, what the fuck does this stupid thread have to do with Cyprus. It is a Cyprus forum. If you had a hard time in school, tough luck, take this shit elsewhere.

You just stand people that are wealthy, you hate them because they can and you can't. We call that jealousy, it is a horrible trait to possess.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:56 pm

B25 wrote:Question, what the fuck does this stupid thread have to do with Cyprus. It is a Cyprus forum. If you had a hard time in school, tough luck, take this shit elsewhere.

You just stand people that are wealthy, you hate them because they can and you can't. We call that jealousy, it is a horrible trait to possess.


:)

So many threads and posts here not about Cyprus. Why pick out this one ? There must be some kind of explanation as to why not the 100's or 1000's of others but this one in particular ? Are you saying more with this post about me or about you B25 ? For the record some of my best and closest friends are wealthy ;) I can assure you that I do not hate or envy but have nothing but love and pride for my niece , former pupil of Dame Alice School in Bedford the sister school to the boys school I attended, law graduate of Oxford University (really Oxford university, not some university that happens to be in or near Oxford), who then passed the Bar exams and is now working in chambers as a barrister.

Jealousy is a horrible trait. And hatred is a terrible and heavy burden to have to carry around.
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