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The risks to children of British public schools.

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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:38 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Thank you so much Erolz for your time in writing all this.
It's been a long time that I 've read and learned anything new in this forum.
Yes I 've read the article and I will go on later and read the comments on my Huawei (android).


Thank you for the comments. I write such things first and foremost for myself but such comments as yours above are appreciated. I was wrong about the 'below the line' needing an android device to view. They can be seen on the web version of the site. You just have to scroll down all the way and click the 'see more comments' to see more than just the selected couple viewable by default.

Pyrpolizer wrote:Boarding schools are cruelty to the ultimate degree, I mean how could any parent send their children to such a jungle is beyond me.
I thought such things did not exist any more, but alas, they do in the UK!


Boarding is a major element, probably the single biggest potentially damaging element. I have thought of framing my position in terms of 'boarding schools' but the issues do go beyond that alone imo. I do not know of any traditional British public school that is exclusively boarding. However boarding is a defining element of the kind of school, school structure, that I am talking about. All the 'top' public schools feature boarding. Eaton, Harrow, Westminster, St Paul, Rugby etc etc. Nor is boarding some service provided merely for the convenience of those who simply live to far away. It is integral to what these schools sell. If you want your child to experience the full public school system , then they should board, according to such schools. Just look at the websites (sales pitches) of any of these schools, mine included and you can see this. I was a day boy at Aldwickbury until my final year there (aged 12-13) but became I 'weekly boarder' for my final year, meaning I would go home at weekends. This was sold, forcefully, by the school to my parents and of course such 'up-selling' was in no way connected to the additional 'not profit' such accrued for the school.

Having said that I do not want to be totally one sided here. There are and can be positive 'flavours' to boarding school like 'summer camp' and 'adventure' and 'living with and being surrounded by friends' and the best 'housemasters' can and do create atmosphere's and environments that are more akin to a large extended family than to say borstal. However these are secondary or tertiary 'flavours' compared to the primary and dominant ones, which are much 'darker' imo.

I am also very very wary of 'universal' statements like 'how could any parent do such to their own child'. There is for me a massive difference with sending your child to a boarding school at say the age of 11 and with the full and enthusiastic consent of the child and sending one there at the age of say 7 and regardless of what the child themselves want. I have discussed my views with an ex public school boarder recently who actively wanted, at the age of 12, to be sent to boarding school. Londonrake describes similar in terms of his daughter. I do recognise the difference 'age' and 'consent' make here, in terms of specific individual examples.

Pyrpolizer wrote:You do have a real case to declare the boarding schools illegal and damaging to children Erolz.


Certainly if all a government could get passed through was some restriction only of the use of boarding in schools like these then I would welcome such as a massive 'step in the right direction'.

Pyrpolizer wrote:I am not so much against private schools, but boarding schools for Christ sake, to this modern day? You have my full support to uproot this anachronism.


Indeed there is much nuance here for any willing to explore such. I also have no real issue with the idea of people being able to pay to have their children educated should they wish to do that. I do have issue with them paying to have their children educated within a structure that is potentially damaging to a degree I believe is no longer acceptable. This is one of the reason why which 'label' to use when trying to explain my position is so difficult. Independent school does not allow for the differentiation between a fee paying school that is not structurally brutal, which do exist, and those that are. Public school is inherently misleading and confusing. In a way the term 'boarding school' does describe the kind of schools I am talking about most accurately. Or to steal the description from the book linked to in my post above, schools that follow the 'British and colonial preparatory and public boarding school tradition'. These are the schools I am talking about, not just any school that charges. They are institutions from an earlier age, an age of work houses. We stopped sending our children to work houses a long time ago.

There is a similar 'nuance' for me in terms of 'discipline' and 'structure'. I am not against discipline or structure in schools at all. Although not a parent myself, as an uncle and as someone who has 'worked' with children, I am on any comparative spectrum, well past the 'half way' mark compared to any sort of general average. I am not against discipline in schools. I am against unnecessarily brutalising discipline. Not against structure, etc etc.

Drugs. Now there is an interesting question imo. Are you kids more or less likely to 'encounter' drugs and drug use in a state school than a private one ? My gut feeling would be on this aspect would be the risk is probably about the same. Certainly there was no 'shortage' of such exposure in the School I was at and there are plenty of reports of top public schools having issues with drug use at their schools.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:42 pm

B25 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Teşekkürler. Kalsın !

Neeext!! ®


I don't do devil language.


But you do! You 've just chosen assiktir from the devil language which in reality is 2 words "ha" and "siktir" :mrgreen:
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm

B25 wrote:But, then again a Turk sympathiser what does one really expect. Asshole.


How does someone show Turk sympathy by expressing support for someone who is not a Turk ? I am only Turkish inside your and others like you heads. There is no external reality, outside of your heads, to me being a Turk, not on any level. Legally I am not and have no right to Turkish nationality. Legally according to the RoC I am Cypriot. I do not speak Turkish. I have never lived in Turkey. I have visited, as a tourist, Vegas more times than Turkey. I have no connection to Turkey via family. I am not Turkish in my head or in my heart. There is only one 'place' where I am a Turk and that is in your head alone.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:05 pm

erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Thank you so much Erolz for your time in writing all this.
It's been a long time that I 've read and learned anything new in this forum.
Yes I 've read the article and I will go on later and read the comments on my Huawei (android).


Thank you for the comments. I write such things first and foremost for myself but such comments as yours above are appreciated. I was wrong about the 'below the line' needing an android device to view. They can be seen on the web version of the site. You just have to scroll down all the way and click the 'see more comments' to see more than just the selected couple viewable by default.

Pyrpolizer wrote:Boarding schools are cruelty to the ultimate degree, I mean how could any parent send their children to such a jungle is beyond me.
I thought such things did not exist any more, but alas, they do in the UK!


Boarding is a major element, probably the single biggest potentially damaging element. I have thought of framing my position in terms of 'boarding schools' but the issues do go beyond that alone imo. I do not know of any traditional British public school that is exclusively boarding. However boarding is a defining element of the kind of school, school structure, that I am talking about. All the 'top' public schools feature boarding. Eaton, Harrow, Westminster, St Paul, Rugby etc etc. Nor is boarding some service provided merely for the convenience of those who simply live to far away. It is integral to what these schools sell. If you want your child to experience the full public school system , then they should board, according to such schools. Just look at the websites (sales pitches) of any of these schools, mine included and you can see this. I was a day boy at Aldwickbury until my final year there (aged 12-13) but became I 'weekly boarder' for my final year, meaning I would go home at weekends. This was sold, forcefully, by the school to my parents and of course such 'up-selling' was in no way connected to the additional 'not profit' such accrued for the school.

Having said that I do not want to be totally one sided here. There are and can be positive 'flavours' to boarding school like 'summer camp' and 'adventure' and 'living with and being surrounded by friends' and the best 'housemasters' can and do create atmosphere's and environments that are more akin to a large extended family than to say borstal. However these are secondary or tertiary 'flavours' compared to the primary and dominant ones, which are much 'darker' imo.

I am also very very wary of 'universal' statements like 'how could any parent do such to their own child'. There is for me a massive difference with sending your child to a boarding school at say the age of 11 and with the full and enthusiastic consent of the child and sending one there at the age of say 7 and regardless of what the child themselves want. I have discussed my views with an ex public school boarder recently who actively wanted, at the age of 12, to be sent to boarding school. Londonrake describes similar in terms of his daughter. I do recognise the difference 'age' and 'consent' make here.

Pyrpolizer wrote:You do have a real case to declare the boarding schools illegal and damaging to children Erolz.


Certainly if all a government could get passed through was some restriction only of the use of boarding in schools like these then I would welcome such as a massive 'step in the right direction'.

Pyrpolizer wrote:I am not so much against private schools, but boarding schools for Christ sake, to this modern day? You have my full support to uproot this anachronism.


Indeed there is much nuance here for any willing to explore such. I also have no real issue with the idea of people being able to pay to have their children educated should they wish to do that. I do have issue with them paying to have their children educated within a structure that is potentially damaging to a degree I believe is no longer acceptable. This is one of the reason why which 'label' to use when trying to explain my position is so difficult. Independent school does not allow for the differentiation between a fee paying school that is not structurally brutal, which do exist, and those that are. Public school is inherently misleading and confusing. In a way the term 'boarding school' does describe the kind of schools I am talking about most accurately. Or to steal the description from the book linked to in my post above, schools that follow the 'British and colonial preparatory and public boarding school tradition'. These are the schools I am talking about, not just any school that charges. They are institutions from an earlier age, an age of work houses. We stopped sending our children to work houses a long time ago.

There is a similar 'nuance' for me in terms of 'discipline' and 'structure'. I am not against discipline or structure in schools at all. Although not a parent myself, as an uncle and as someone who has 'worked' with children, I am on any comparative spectrum, well past the 'half way' mark compared to any sort of general average. I am not against discipline in schools. I am against unnecessarily brutalising discipline. Not against structure, etc etc.

Drugs. Now there is an interesting question imo. Are you kids more or less likely to 'encounter' drugs and drug use in a state school than a private one ? My gut feeling would be on this aspect would be the risk is probably about the same. Certainly there was no 'shortage' of such exposure in the School I was at and there are plenty of reports of top public schools having issues with drug use at their schools.


Erolz to succeed in changing something you have to have a clear case. Forget about some of the positives of boarding schools. Concentrate on a single issue: Is a child better off away from his mother in a boarding school yes or no. If the answer is generally "no" because there's no substitute to maternal psychological uprising then case closed. If you mess up the positives of the boarding schools, you will end up nowhere.

Boarding schools is basically schooling 24/7 (correct me if I am wrong). Those who live far away could have the choice of dormitories like most Universities offer, or just rent their own apartments.

About the issue of drugs, I have no idea about UK, but here in Cyprus the risk is higher at state schools simply because the state schools have more junk.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Londonrake » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:09 pm

Pyrpo. Do bear in mind that Erolz’s public school experience is just that. His. My own Daughter’s 5 years in one was unrecognizable different. By the sound of it CG’s family reflects that. Erolz speaks from a very jaundiced perspective and IMHO really has no right to support such a draconian policy on that - psychologically damaged - basis.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:29 pm

Londonrake wrote:Pyrpo. Do bear in mind that Erolz’s public school experience is just that. His. My own Daughter’s 5 years in one was unrecognizable different. By the sound of it CG’s family reflects that. Erolz speaks from a very jaundiced perspective and IMHO really has no right to support such a draconian policy on that - psychologically damaged - basis.


Do you recall what I said before creating this thread Londonrake ? About 'statistical average'. And about what your reaction, in all probability, would be once I had created it. Let me remind you.

As I have said my view, my opinion, is that on statistical average, public schools are more likely to leave those who pass through them damaged more than state schools and more damaged than is necessary or should be deemed acceptable by society in the year 2019. As I have said this is not simply based on an extrapolation of my own singular personal experience multiplied up. As I have said, I will when I have the time present my 'evidence' that I think supports such a claim. I will do that in the knowledge and expectation that you Londonrake in all probability will not judge that evidence with an open mind, will not even attempt to do so. With the expectation that you almost certainly will however use the presentation of such evidence to try and denigrate me as an individual and person as a result


So thanks. It is always satisfying to be proven right with a prediction ;)
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:34 pm

Londonrake wrote:Pyrpo. Do bear in mind that Erolz’s public school experience is just that. His. My own Daughter’s 5 years in one is unrecognizable different. By the sound of it CG’s family reflects that. Erolz speaks from a very jaundiced perspective and IMHO really has no right to support such a draconian policy on that - psychologically damaged - basis.


Sure I understand that about Erolz, but who else would dare stir the waters against such a system, other than those who were affected negatively?

It would be a piece of cake for psychologists to prove that separating
a child from his parents at say the age of 7 or 13 is severely damaging to his/her psychological stability and uprising.
Boarding schools are like schooling 24/7 as I understand it. They are personality crushers just like serving in the Army at 18 years of age.
You know that better than anyone else don't you? However at the age of 18 an individual is strong enough to stand it...

There's no way to ever learn if the boarding school was beneficial to your or CG's daughter LR despite their fond memories, and nice socializing they experienced. Do you really believe they wouldn't be better off living with their parents while going to the exact same school?

Btw at what age did your daughter go to the boarding school?
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby erolz66 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:50 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:Boarding schools is basically schooling 24/7 (correct me if I am wrong). Those who live far away could have the choice of dormitories like most Universities offer, or just rent their own apartments.


You are correct. There are differing degrees. A full boarder would typically live at the school 24/7 for entire terms, returning home for the holidays / non term time. You also get 'weekly' boarding, when you go home for the weekends (though most traditional public schools in the UK would have half days on Saturday).

There are schools, very rare, that accommodate students who live far away, by placing them in the homes of families of fellow students who live close. A much better solution to the 'far away' problem imo.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Paphitis » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:07 am

Pyrpolizer wrote:
erolz66 wrote:
Pyrpolizer wrote:Erolz for a start I got confused of your terms public school Vs state school. Just curious, is this the terminology used in the UK?
In any case I will use the terms private Vs public (meaning state) schools in my post.


Yes thanks for pointing that out. I may go back and edit the OP to make things less confusing for those not familiar with the Orwellian newspeak nature of how such schools are labeled in the UK. Public school in the UK, public schoolboy or girl, in the UK means a private fee paying school.

Pyrpolizer wrote:The question is do such things still happen and go unpunished in the UK?
I mean even in Cyprus such things can almost never be hidden these days, and there are severe punishments ranging from getting fired to ending up in jail.


I can not stress enough that this is not 'just' about sexual abuse of children in schools. It is about how 'public' schools in the UK are structured and designed to be brutalising, That they were the product of a previous century. That we just do not and should not do this to our children any more. In one of those strange examples of 'co incidence' todays Guardian carries this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Gmail

This is what I am talking about. Yes attitudes to the sexual abuse of children in the UK have changed. In UK terms there is 'before Jimmy Saville' and post 'Jimmy Saville'. However if sexual abuse of children was removed entirely from society, the issues of the structural brutality of such schools systems would still remain. The focus on sexual abuse specifically is just the result of the calls to 'prove it'. That some of those here that made such calls to 'prove it' just turn around and say your proof is wrong without themselves taking even 5 minutes to test the proof, says something imo.

BTW the Guardian android app gives access to 'below the line' on articles such as these. To the comments of readers. The website does not seem to do this. In any case these can be and often are more interesting that the article itself. If anyone has any genuine interest in these issues I would recommend searching out these 'below the line' comments. People relating their own experiences good and bad. There is much 'data' there than can lead to better understanding.

If my contention is true, that such things are more prevalent in british public schools than state ones, the question becomes why is that so. The answers to this are many and complex but one aspect of them can be seen in Paphitis' responses in my opinion. This 'reverence' and 'respect' to and for 'higher / better' authority and experience is part of the of the equation. I never went to my parents and said 'do not send me back there, that man is doing bad things to me'. I did go to them and say things like 'let me do design and technology (basically woodworking) and not latin, I want to do DT. I dont want to do Latin'. So my parents would troop off and speak to the school and the school would say 'do not worry about what your child wants. We are the experts. We know what is best. That is what you are paying us for. It is better for him to do Latin and not DT'. That the reality was it was better for the school that I did Latin and not DT is immaterial. My parents, like lambs to the slaughter, in awe of the 'expertise' and 'superiority' of the 'experts' they were paying huge sums to because they were experts acquiesced. Latin it was. This 'dynamic' is intimately linked to how in so many cases sexual abuse in such schools even when reported was not stopped quickly enough. It is only one aspect but it a real one. It has parallels with the respect shown for institutions like the Catholic Church in places like Ireland and how this allowed abuse scandals to go on for so long in so many cases. The exposing of these scandals has led to profound and positive changes in Ireland. It is now more progressive than say NI on issues like abortion and same sex marriages and this is a direct result of the demolishing of the myth of the infallibility of the church as an institution. The church is no longer the all pervasive force on society it used to be and that is good. As an aside this is a process that still has a way to go in the RoC imo.

There are many other reasons why abuse is statistically more prevalent in public schools that sate in the UK. More than I can delve in to in this post alone. One aspect is related to the 'physical opportunity' that boarding presents. Not just physical access but the increase in vulnerability of the victim that such (enforced) boarding results in.

There is much else in Paphitis' post that is for me 'telling'. In terms of how and why does abuse at such schools not just happen more often in such schools but is allowed to go on for so long and in such plain sight. when he says "The Alumni of this school is very sophisticated and it reaches the Medical Boards of Australia, the Halls of Power and politics, and the Legal Fraternities" and "News Limited (Murdoch) for instance is full of Journos from a few certain schools and so on."
There is also much in his posts about the 'dynamics' of how such schools 'work'. About what it is you are really buying when you send your child to such. About how you are essentially buying access to an exclusive club for you children than can and does lead to them having access to higher paid jobs, to roles of 'power and prestige'. It is my experience that the idea such schools offer better teachers and teaching is simply a myth. I suspect that is true generically as well but providing the proof of this is not something that can be done easily. Something I did learn from going to such schools is that confidence is a 'trick'. From being in the somewhat unique position of having gone from poor to rich 'overnight' , having gone from a 'ghetto' north london state school to a prestigious public school in the leafy Hertfordshire countryside, I was able to notice many things. The kids in these better schools were no brighter than my previous one, no more hard working, no more able. The standard of teaching was not better and in my case markedly worse in some cases. So much of the whole edifice was built on illusion. On self fulfilling prophecy. On telling children, over and over that 'you are the elite, you are the ones that will go on to be the business leaders of the country, the political leaders of the country'. Such can and does lead to those children having a better chance of a higher paid job but at what cost to the child, their development, their ability to discover who they really are ?

Paphitis talks about his experience of being told as a child that he was 'possessed by the devil'. Now in his case that may not have damaged him in any way. Imagine however a 7 year old child, taken from the safety and security and love of their family and placed in a boarding environment being told by someone who is a representative God himself, that they are evil and wicked. That kind of thing can and does fuck people up for life. Is the chance of a higher paid job really worth the price of such damage ? This is why I believe educators should start from the same place that doctors do. First and before anything else 'do no harm' or 'do as little harm as possible'.

Oh I could go on and on and on.

When I got up this morning my partner said 'have you seen the Guardian front page today yet ? Looks like you have started something'. I did not start this. What 'started' this was the the Labour party conference resolution on public schools. When I read about that my immediate thought was 'yes' and 'about time'. Being the kind of person I am I did not just go 'yes' and 'about time'. I started a process of asking myself why do I instinctively support the idea of change. This in turn lead me to think about my own school days and experience. It lead me to, for the first time, searching 'Aldwickbury Mr Brown'. I was not surprised to be met with the Times article I linked to earlier. It is time we as a society faced these issues, discussed them, bring them out in to the light. The Labour part resolution is starting this process. For me individually and society generally. We do not need to do this to our children any more. I do not raise these things because I hate the rich, envy the rich. I raise them because no child, not even the children of the rich should have to face such risks such life defining damage anymore. It is 2016 not 1916 or 1816. It is time for real change.

just a few more 'resources'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/041569003X/ ... WDbHPQHA2V
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Gmail (again I recommend searching out the juice that is in the below the line comments)


Thank you so much Erolz for your time in writing all this.
It's been a long time that I 've read and learned anything new in this forum.
Yes I 've read the article and I will go on later and read the comments on my Huawei (android).

Boarding schools are cruelty to the ultimate degree, I mean how could any parent send their children to such a jungle is beyond me.
I thought such things did not exist any more, but alas, they do in the UK!

You do have a real case to declare the boarding schools illegal and damaging to children Erolz.
It would only take experts and psychologists a few months to prepare a really solid case that can stand up in courts.
I am not so much against private schools, but boarding schools for Christ sake, to this modern day?
You have my full support to uproot this anachronism.


You guys are in an alternative universe.

If I was in the UK, and could afford it and was able to, I would send my Son to Eaton without thinking twice.

I'm sorry, but that from all accounts is a fine school and opens a lot of doers for the boys that go there.

The pnly cruel thing I see, are the fees. But there is a reason why they are able to charge those amounts.

You are both delusional.

I've been raised in a family that values education to the point where money is no substitute over giving your children a fighting chance in life. If you bring children into this world, you are responsible for them also. Not to [rovide everything on a platter but to provide them with maximum opportunity and also eventual financial freedom to boot.

I'm not one to look at the David Cameron's of this world and feel jealous like you lot. I look up to people like that and wonder how I can get my children to have the same opportunities as the David Cameron's and Boris Johnson's and then I work out a strategy to get to there, or at least try.

Jeolousy is a terrible trait to have and it will consume you and prevent you from achieving goals. There is nothing worse than jeolousy and hatred.

Secondly, you say boarding schools are torture, but in Australia for hundreds of thousands of farming and station (ranch) farmers, boarding schools is where they send their kids to school. You know, they got no other choose when the nearest school is hundreds of km away. SDo they send their kids at schools like Saint Peters.

You see, you need to get out of the mentality that the rest of the world is like Cyprus. Cyprus is just a few of the Western Suburbs of Sydney to put it into context.
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Re: The risks to children of British public schools.

Postby Maximus » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:24 am

The education system doesn't provide people with the skills to create financial freedom.

Just the opposite. It creates employees at best. At worst, it churns out graduates with useless degrees.

The education system provided me with debt and an education that has little value or application in the real commercial world. The skills I have today, I learnt myself or from the brutal trials of life.

I had a friend who went to a well know public school. In the same league as Eaton. He was smart but we both ended up at the same university doing the same degree. In the end, neither of us worked in our field of study, we just had debt.

You need a different kind of education to become wealthy and to achieve financial freedom. You wont learn it in schools.
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