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...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

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...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:54 am

...i was just reading about Trump's plan, regarding Palestine and Israel; for Peace.

I'm not going to make up my mind on it so quickly, in the days to follow, i imagine, there will be much to read about it.

...frankly, i think a BBF in a 'greater Israel', at this point may be a better solution and more sustainable because, enclaves, anyway you look at it for one and the other, will exist in any case; as Individuals equal without further discrimination or distinction as citizens of the same State: Free Movement, Association, and Expression, and at another level of Government representing themselves as Persons within defined territorial Jurisdictions, mindful as a majority with an Agenda that sustains their distinct identities, of the minorities living among them by providing for their special needs as well.

It would be a nice gesture if Jerusalem became an 'International' city', "owned" by no one, a place where Muslims, Jews, and Christians, demonstrate their commitment, to live in Peace, and in unity lovingly serving each other, and this Holy place, with Grace, as in effect their GOD commands them;
...or would it be the end of the (read: this) world?
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:21 pm

Personally, I think the Trump/Netanyahu Plan stinks! Somebody on the radio was saying that the message is WE won, YOU lost ..... this is what’s on offer take it or leave it! But one thing is for sure that plan does nothing to promote a peaceful settlement.

Repulsewarrior:
It would be a nice gesture if Jerusalem became an 'International' city', "owned" by no one, a place where Muslims, Jews, and Christians, demonstrate their commitment, to live in Peace, and in unity lovingly serving each other, and this Holy place, with Grace, as in effect their GOD commands them; ...or would it be the end of the (read: this) world?

That was the original UN Proposal in 1948 but the Zionists had a much bigger plan, but I think that would be a good idea. Israel should also return the Golan to Syria ..... the US made a big fuss when Russia annexed Crimea, even though it was the choice of the people and subject to a referendum, and yet are only too happy to support Israel’s annexation plan.

I would expand that Jerusalem proposal to include a 12-15km wide corridor between the river Jordon and the Mediterranean coast. Call the whole area within The City State of Jerusalem. Give the lands to the north as The State of Palestine and the Southern part as the State of Israel. With a neutral ‘State’ between them it would buffer the two states with the Palestinians adjoining more friendly state’s to the their North and the Israeli’s would have their allies Egypt and Saudi on their Southern border.

No longer a need for Israel to worry about their border security? Then get Israel to sign up to the UN nuclear treaties that Iran already complies with or face severe sanctions.

That would suit the Palestinians and give them their own State, likewise the Israeli’s ...... now that would be the Deal of the Century? :roll: :wink:

Then I would move the United Nations from NY to the New State of Jerusalem and revamp the way it works ...... primarily, cut out the veto’s and base all decisions on a one-Country-one-vote with varying required percentages to carry the vote. :?:
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:08 pm

...indeed, what with a Single Citizenship, and Individual Rights they could defend each other, and the Principals on which their State is Founded.

Real progress won't be measured as a success if the best that this lot of Statesman can do is keep people apart, an apartheid state in other words; it lacks vision, and it is not something that can be held in esteem, or emulated. Palestinians seek Justice, this is not it. Both Jews and Arabs must recognise their roles as majorities, as constituencies demonstrating their respect and recognition of each other by providing for the special needs of the minorities that live amongst them.

If they are kept apart it is unnatural, and us such, not self-sustainable. As Human beings, as servants of the same God, they all need to step up from their positions to one closer to the Ideals they represent.
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:26 pm

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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Maximus » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:55 am

End-organ the hypocrite.

He Might as well be talking about turkeys occupation on Cyprus and what turkey is trying to do there.

Other than that, no this is not a good plan if you are Palestinian.
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Paphitis » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:18 am

Sorry but why the heck would Israel accept the 1948 UN peace plan. Have you seen the map of the plan. Israel will be virtually wiped out.

There would be 3 Palestinian zones, one on the Egyptian Border (Greater Gaza), one being a Greater West Bank + Jerusalem (all of it), and another zone on the Lebanese Border connecting the Palestinians to Hezbollah. And 3 very narrow corridors which can be easily invaded to unite the 3 areas, cutting the Israeli state into 3 parts. It also gives a large chunk of Israel to Lebanon (dream on).

That equates to total destruction - but I guess that is what you want.

Israel will not accept this and it isn't on the table.

What is on the table is West Bank and Gaza, but no east Jerusalem.

If that isn't acceptable, then its ok. Honestly, do you really think the Israelis are stupid? The Arabs lost the 1967 war - remember the war that was to drive the Jews into the sea?

It's not as if they didn't start it all off to begin with.

But what gets me is this. Why you think Israel is stupid enough to accept such a proposal plus give all of Jerusalem to the Arabs.

Jerusalem is part of the Jewish State. It belonged to them long before the Arabs rocked up in the area. Sorry, but the 1948 map is laughable and ceased to be relevant after the 7 day war in 1967 which the Arabs started thinking they had the upper hand because of Egypt.

The only relevant maps now are the 1967 maps.

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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Paphitis » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:30 am

The only bad part of the deal which makes it unfair in my opinion is the fact that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank will become protected. I have a much more hardline approach against the Israeli settlements in West Bank as I believe them to be illegal, and what kind of Palestinian State will it be with Israeli zones in that area, presumably under Israeli control?

I believe these Israeli settlements must be bulldozed and destroyed and the Israeli settlers there to be relocated into Israel proper for their own safety, and to allow the Palestinian State to move forward without these Jewish Settlers.

If Palestinians in Israel proper wish to relocate to the West Bank as well, then they should be free to do so (maybe into the settler's houses), even though their human rights in Israel is protected and safeguarded since they can even elect politicians into the Knesset.

So in affect, a population exchange. Israeli settlers and Palestinians to be adequately compensated for their land and houses as well, through an international fund.

Such an outcome in my opinion would be a very serious proposal.

The 1948 maps are NOT a serious proposal either.
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:01 pm

Nobody has suggested returning to the 1947 UN proposal. I suggested that the independent State of Jerusalem suggestion could be implemented and extended from the Jordon to the Med! That would create a neutral buffer and give Israel the larger Southern area and the Palestinians the Northern part as their State. :?: :idea:

The United Nations approved a plan to partition Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state and was presented in late 1947, but the Arabs rejected it. In May 1948, Israel was unilaterally declared as an independent state by and with, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, as the prime minister. Israel had already planned out what was going to be Israel and such things as agreements, negotiations did not feature in the plan.

The Zionists unilaterally declared the State of Israel in May 1948 and displaced 750,000 Palestinians that already lived there and without that displacement there would have been no Israel. The Israeli’s created their Israel on land mostly occupied by others ...... how would you feel if that happened in Australia and the Aboriginals rose up and with the help of China declared 78% of Australia belonged to them? (Now about 85% I believe.)
Sorry but why the heck would Israel accept the 1948 UN peace plan. Have you seen the map of the plan. Israel will be virtually wiped out.

It was NOT a peace plan! Israel did not exist at that time. It was a UN plan to divide The Palestinian Territories between a New State of Israel and the Palestinians that already lived there and had done for hundreds of years. It was drawn up to CREATE Israel. It was Palestine that has been virtually wiped out! IMO: The UN plan was unworkable crap from the start.
There would be 3 Palestinian zones, one on the Egyptian Border (Greater Gaza), one being a Greater West Bank + Jerusalem (all of it), and another zone on the Lebanese Border connecting the Palestinians to Hezbollah. And 3 very narrow corridors which can be easily invaded to unite the 3 areas, cutting the Israeli state into 3 parts. It also gives a large chunk of Israel to Lebanon (dream on).

Jerusalem (all of it) Palestinian” ???? ..... that is not true.

That bit WAS Lebanon before 1967, the Israeli’s stole it in an act of war. They did the same with the Golan Heights. BTW: Hezbollah was not created until the late 80’s as a defence force against the IDF and after the Israeli’s invaded Lebanon, the IDF was created from the former Israeli Terrorist groups upon the declaration of its creation.
That equates to total destruction - but I guess that is what you want.

It was/is what the Israeli’s wanted, the total destruction and annexation of the Palestinian Territories to create what they now call The Jewish State of Israel.
Israel will not accept this and it isn't on the table. What is on the table is West Bank and Gaza, but no east Jerusalem.

East Jerusalem was originally occupied by Jordan I believe. The UN Proposal of 1948 was that Jerusalem should be owned by no single State but something on the lines of The Vatican State but administered by the four religions that recognised the various Holy sites. But Israel’s intention from before 1948, was to make Jerusalem the ‘UNDIVEDED’ Capital City of the Jewish State of Israel. With Trumps help they have made that move.
If that isn't acceptable, then its ok. Honestly, do you really think the Israelis are stupid? The Arabs lost the 1967 war - remember the war that was to drive the Jews into the sea?

The Israeli’s started the 6 Day war! The bit about ‘....driving Jews into the Sea’ was a story which the Mossad started. It started with a pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian Air Force and I believe, also the Syrian and Jordanian air forces and it was a very well planned attack on the Arab armies, who were totally unprepared. (You should read it up.) It was a brilliantly planned campaign but it was never a response to an attack by any of the Arab forces ..... only in as much as the Israeli’s claimed ‘Intelligence’ the Arabs were planning one! Nothing changes eh ..... the same excuse is used to this very day! Every Israeli attack is inevitably claimed by Israel as a response to a perceived threat!
It's not as if they didn't start it all off to begin with.

If by ‘they’ you mean the Arabs ..... that is not true!
But what gets me is this. Why you think Israel is stupid enough to accept such a proposal plus give all of Jerusalem to the Arabs.

That was NEVER the plan!
Jerusalem is part of the Jewish State. It belonged to them long before the Arabs rocked up in the area. Sorry, but the 1948 map is laughable and ceased to be relevant after the 7 day war in 1967 which the Arabs started thinking they had the upper hand because of Egypt
.
Did it belong to them? ...... just because their God said the Jews were his chosen people and the Land belonged to them? Australia belonged to the Aboriginals ‘.....long before the Europeans rocked up in the area.’ How far do you want to go back? Cyprus belonged to Turkey before the British annexed it, it had never been a State in its History!

98% of those who call themselves Jews and live in what is called Israel have no historic links to the region. Most are Ashkenazi Jews and originate from Eastern Europe/Russia. The Arabs didn’t start the 6 Day war ...... Israel did! (It is a matter of record.)
The only relevant maps now are the 1967 maps.

The post 1967 maps show the results after the 6 Day war and have now changed out of all recognition. It no longer represents the situation.
The only bad part of the deal which makes it unfair in my opinion is the fact that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank will become protected. I have a much more hardline approach against the Israeli settlements in West Bank as I believe them to be illegal, and what kind of Palestinian State will it be with Israeli zones in that area, presumably under Israeli control?

I agree with you! How can it be Palestinian lands when it is littered with (Armed) Jewish Settlers backed by the IDF? Those brown roads on the map in the recent proposal by Israel, cannot be crossed by Palestinian’s without a permit and only at manned (IDF) crossing points. These are frequently closed and permits can take days to get. Are you also aware that the settlements, in many cases, discharge their sewers directly onto the Palestinians farming land and that the Palestinians are ‘allowed’ just 2 hrs of water a day but the settlers run irrigation systems for their gardens? The same happens with electricity. It is a very unfair situation and I am sure very few people on here would have been content if the Turks had taken more of the Island and treated Greek enclaves in the RoC in that way?
I believe these Israeli settlements must be bulldozed and destroyed and the Israeli settlers there to be relocated into Israel proper for their own safety, and to allow the Palestinian State to move forward without these Jewish Settler?.

I agree but why not move the settlers out instead and let the Palestinians move into the settlements? Call it partial reparations?
If Palestinians in Israel proper wish to relocate to the West Bank as well, then they should be free to do so (maybe into the settler's houses), even though their human rights in Israel is protected and safeguarded since they can even elect politicians into the Knesset.

Arab/Palestinian Israeli’s are second class citizens and have nowhere near the rights and privileges of Jewish Israeli’s. This is why by most people Israel is regarded as an apartheid state.
So in affect, a population exchange. Israeli settlers and Palestinians to be adequately compensated for their land and houses as well, through an international fund.

But in the original land theft, the Palestinian refugees never were compensated! They were driven out and have all been denied the right of return. There was no population exchange then (1948) or since, it was an influx of Jews from all over The World. Israel take what it wants!
Such an outcome in my opinion would be a very serious proposal.

I think you lack a lot of the background to the problem, which goes way back before 1948 and is extremely complex and not quite as simple and straight forward as you portray it.

This is a good site for facts on the Israel/Palestine conflict and will keep you busy for weeks. At the end of your studies you will be more aware of the facts behind the conflict.

https://ifamericansknew.org/

Another forum I frequent, has a special Palestine/Israel section. It started in 2009 and was restarted in Apr 2012 after the moderators froze it for several months, after it got a bit out of hand ([i]before my time) but since 2009 it has now 161 Pages, 36319 views,3207 replies and is still going strong but with more moderation. So not an easy topic to discuss .... certainly not a subject for this forum! [/i] :roll:
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jan 31, 2020 5:01 am

Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan cut off Israel from Iran and mobilized hundreds of thousands of troops on 3 fronts.

Israel had no choice as the blockade in itself ensured the slow death of Israel because it had no means to import petroleum from the Shah, which in itself is an act of war and a cassus belli. Or a quick death through invasion.

The canal was also closed to Israeli shipping.

Therefore, Israel did what ANY country would have done to break the blockade. It pre-emptively attacked and Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt paid the price. In fact, Israel occupied all of the Sinai Peninsula.

Tough titties! The Arabs lost. They bought it upon themselves.

There is NOTHING to negotiate now, apart from what is on the table - West Bank and Gaza. If the other side want to stick to their maximalist positions, then that to me does not sound like Israel's problem. It is the Palestinians that will lose as the sun sets.

Israel did sign a peace treaty with Egypt in 1980 and returned all occupied territories to Egypt as a result.

There can be no negotiated peace treaty with Lebanon, or Syria. Israel will NEVER negotiate with Hezbollah OR Iran. That is a red line. No country can be expected to negotiate with such organizations and Iranian terror proxies. that is a very dangerous precedence to set which rewards terrorism. Israel today is a recognized state, in its current form, and therefore will not negotiate its dejure status.

As for Jordan, there has been some progress with them as they are not sticking to maximalist claims unlike Iran.

If Iran don't like it, they can attack Israel through their proxies but they too will have their asses handed to them. Israel has a right of defence and to defend their borders as they are today. If the PLO wish to negotiate a 2 State Solution, Israel has not been completely dismissive. But such a settlement will only include West Bank and Gaza, not Jerusalem. There is some scope for the PLO to negotiate a better deal, but the fanatics will never allow that. They poisoned Yasser Arafat for even talking to Rabin in the 90s.

Israel doesn't have to do a thing. It is the Arabs that are threatening Israel. If they got the balls, let them attack!

Pushing shit uphill if you expect Israel to hand over territory to Lebanon, and Syria. That can NEVER happen unless they want to start a war and win. But never forget, Israel has many friends, and its friends will respond against Iran if required. Israel is our little puppet and the most democratic country in the Middle east and Israel is required as a power in the Middle East to keep Turkey at bay. It is in alliance now with Cyprus, Egypt and Greece, something I could not foresee just a few years ago. It is a Western Country in the Middle East and a force for good now. It has delineated its EEZ in accordance with International law with Cyprus and Egypt. They do not subscribe to 'might is right' and steal the resources of other countries unlike Turkey. In fact, Israel today along with Egypt Greece and France are Turkey's biggest rivals in the area.

Monon Lave! If they want war, then we are READY!

The day will come when there is a big war between Greece and Turkey. Israel is on the side of the righteous.

I for one look forward to more security cooperation between Cyprus and Israel. Our best friends in the region.

There really is no issue. Things can stay as they are, unless there is a genuine desire by the other party to negotiate a 2 state solution for the Palestinians. That ball is in their court.
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Re: ...so somebody tell me if this plan is a good one

Postby Robin Hood » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:37 pm

Given this ..........

https://www.bitchute.com/video/reJGTG3zhAEb/


.... why would the Palestinians even give consideration to this Israeli offer?

Until you have full agreement by those involved there is no such thing as an agreement. This arrogant ‘Deal of the Century’ will solve nothing.
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