Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

One for Supportheunderdog,

Just take a week's tour around the major Greek islands, Crete, Evia, Samos, Kerkyra, and see how these places are run. Start from the quality of the air and sea ports, look at the roads, visit the local government offices, the Nomarhias and the Periferies and witness the shambles. That is what will replace the administration in the event of Enosis.

For fun go to a smaller island or mainland village and go to the local government office. There you will inevitably see a hand written note pinned to the closed door, giving the first name and cell phone number of the man in charge, ie Vangelis 6946 *****. This is how things are run.

If you cannot take the tour, look up any Greek ministerial department in the phone book and call them. Nine times out of ten no one will pick up the phone during working hours.

Greeks know that the above are accurate observations, they report on them on almost every news bulletin and daily paper. But suggest to them that in the event of Enosis perhaps the Cyprus administrative system should be adopted by the new Union and they will laugh in your face. It is an experience I have become accustomed to over the last 36 years.

[metamorphosys]

i guess you can see how i feel about enosis from a picture i made some time ago:

[kurupetos]

I love it. No borders between Cyprus & Greece.

[metamorphosys]

Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself

in your case - a bit far sighted

[kurupetos]

Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself

in your case - a bit far sighted

You're confused.

[supporttheunderdog]

The general drift of the gentic evidence tends however make the theories of Predominant Mycenaean descent as one of the foundations of the hellenism of the Cypriots ( as GIG keeps mentioning) probably increasingly untenable.

Where is your "genetic evidence" for the untenable "Mycenaean descent"?


[Please don't paraphrase me when you don't even understand your own Estonian sources. Your source merely confirms the relatedness of people closest to their nearest neighbors and demonstrated many similarities (for such a small sample) between Cretans and Cypriots despite Crete being further away from the Levant than is Cyprus. What they showed is that Crete, being further away from the Levant/Egypt, has few similarities. Do you understand the significance of these sorts of comparisons? ]

I would just like to make the observation that ancientPaelolithic man made a 12000 mile journey from Africa to Australia some 70,000 to 40,000 years or so ago, so for Neolithic man to make the journey along/from the Southern Anatolian Coast to Cyprus and Crete some 6000 years back is no big deal, particularly where neolithic peoples obviouly had abilies to make sea going craft some 12000 years ago, the earliest point at which Humans can be identified in Cyprus. As the article sets out the Genetic evidence suggests both Crete and Cyprus were settled by a stable population from the same source, probably via Anatolia, for at least 6000 years, which predates the Myceaneans', who were the first Greek civilisation, first arrival in the area by several thousand years.

Indeed the genetic evidence suggests that in many parts of Europe, eg the UK, Crete, Cyprus etc., the population has probabaly been mostly genetically stable since Neolithic times and the first permanant resettlement after LGM.

Is it the observation that the majority of the ancestors of the Cypriots are possibly of ancient Anatolian origin something that you cannot stomach?

Or is that what you do not like is that ancient propaganda about Greek Descent, which is one leg of claims to Greekness/Hellensim, is being attacked.
I would equate your version of Hellenism with other forms of racists isms, such as Zionism.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Is it the observation that the majority of the ancestors of the Cypriots are possibly of ancient Anatolian origin something that you cannot stomach?

Once again, you make assumptions from your own bias. Instead of contriving labels such as "ancient Anatolian origins", why can't you understand that the colonisation of Europe, from our origins in Africa, took place in a number of waves across the continuous land masses, and later by use of the seas to cross into Cyprus and other Greek islands from whichever, whatever and however many crossing points they decided were convenient/serendipitous to use? No one knows exactly where these "ancient harbours" were located along the Mediterranean/African coastlines, but instead accept they were many sailing-off points.

So, stud, in order for our ancient African fathers/mothers to cross to Cyprus they would have been going all over the regions we call Africa, Egypt, Levant, Israel and yes, Anatolia! This was on their way towards the colonisation of Europe (other major strands went eastwards), which includes Greece as a major resting point - so those ancient peoples, crossing Anatolia, Levant, were ONE and the SAME (something YOU cannot stomach) who sailed to Cyprus at some point or went further north, to other islands and mainlands to seed and reseed, build homes, trade, write, visit relatives, build better transportation, go to the Moon and back and waste time on the Internet!

Now, which time-point from the continuum do you want to use as a cutoff to substantiate your Imperialist-supporting, racist, historical-revisionist, political aspirations to tell us that Cyprus should be segregated from and become non-aligned with Greece by any means, way, shape or form?

[Cap]

Interesting to read posts by 'Cypriots' who would NEVER leave their utopian Anglo adopted homelands to repatriate. But they're quick to decide what's best for the country.

[supporttheunderdog]

Yes these ancient peoples were all human, just as the Turkish speaking Cypriots are the same as Greek Speaking Cypriots and I being British am the same as Greek . If you disagree with any of that then it shows the futility of your own argument about the commonality of ancient peoples who almost certainly had superficial differences in language, custom and belief etc., just as while being human Greeks and Britons Turks and Turkish Cypriots all speak different languages, etc.

We are however here discussing one or two particular alleged migrations or more likely a conquest events in support of a modern political demand ignoring the 3000 years of human history on Cyprus before and similar afterwards: it is you who wants to stop the clock at somewhere between say 300BC and 1400BC to suit YOUR particular bias so before trying accuse me of that sort of thing take a good look in the mirror.


As for imperialism, what right did the Mycenaeans have to invade Cyprus, or Megalomanic Alexexander to try to conquour the known world, or the Ptolomies to invade in 320BC or so ? No more than the Arabs in the 7th Century, the Crusaders under Richard the Linheart in the 12th century or the Turks in the 16th century .

It's you who are using an ancient imperialism to promote your own modern imperialism.

I for my part have never promoted any domination over Cyprus, other than by the government of the RoC. I am looking forward, not back.


Back however to the ancestry of people and their historical migrations we can however distinguish between the various waves using genetics and where different waves left a different genetic marker . Belonging to differerent haplogroups do not make any one mor or less a pure Human than any other or indeed racially superior or inferior as all variations over time from the hypothesised mitichondrial eve who was the mother of all Humans (about 190,000 years ago) and the hypothesised Y Chromosal Adam (who lived say 142,000 to say 60,000 years ago), are due to mutation.

It however possible to identify that the majority of Cypriots can probably trace the majority of their descent to the people who first permanantly settled Cyprus after LGM , long before anything that could be described as Greek or Hellenistic existed, and it is you who are playing the race card by claiming descent from ancient Greeks.

[supporttheunderdog]

Interesting to read posts by 'Cypriots' who would NEVER leave their utopian Anglo adopted homelands to repatriate. But they're quick to decide what's best for the country.