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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:45 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Why? What is it that makes the MAX a poorly designed aircraft?


Respond to the points made and not just post some random crap about what the PM flies in... :roll:

Would the MAX be approved as a new aircraft today or not...? Have Boeing played the system to get a years old design through approval thus saving themselves $$$$$$$$$s...? Was the existence of MCAS kept quiet to get it through approval...? etc.?

Sadly (and not for the first time), you find yourself defending the indefensible...


Yes if they bought out the aircraft today for argument sake, it would be certified.

I have no doubt that the MAX would be certifies by any global authority, including EASA, I don't see anything that could possibly hinder that.

I also believe the MAX will regain it's certification sometime this year (by end of March according to Boeing sources).

Boeing was well aware of all the Flight Characteristics from wind tunnel tests and divulged all that information and introduced MCAS.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby cyprusgrump » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:51 pm

Paphitis wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Why? What is it that makes the MAX a poorly designed aircraft?


Respond to the points made and not just post some random crap about what the PM flies in... :roll:

Would the MAX be approved as a new aircraft today or not...? Have Boeing played the system to get a years old design through approval thus saving themselves $$$$$$$$$s...? Was the existence of MCAS kept quiet to get it through approval...? etc.?

Sadly (and not for the first time), you find yourself defending the indefensible...


Yes if they bought out the aircraft today for argument sake, it would be certified.

I have no doubt that the MAX would be certifies by any global authority, including EASA, I don't see anything that could possibly hinder that.

I also believe the MAX will regain it's certification sometime this year (by end of March according to Boeing sources).

Boeing was well aware of all the Flight Characteristics from wind tunnel tests and divulged all that information and introduced MCAS.


Thank you.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:02 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Why? What is it that makes the MAX a poorly designed aircraft?


Respond to the points made and not just post some random crap about what the PM flies in... :roll:

Would the MAX be approved as a new aircraft today or not...? Have Boeing played the system to get a years old design through approval thus saving themselves $$$$$$$$$s...? Was the existence of MCAS kept quiet to get it through approval...? etc.?

Sadly (and not for the first time), you find yourself defending the indefensible...


Yes if they bought out the aircraft today for argument sake, it would be certified.

I have no doubt that the MAX would be certifies by any global authority, including EASA, I don't see anything that could possibly hinder that.

I also believe the MAX will regain it's certification sometime this year (by end of March according to Boeing sources).

Boeing was well aware of all the Flight Characteristics from wind tunnel tests and divulged all that information and introduced MCAS.


Thank you.


If the aircraft was bought out as a new type, it would be certified, even under the same family as earlier generation B737.

Every global authority in the world certified the aircraft.

There is conjecture that due to the differing flight characteristics should classify it as its own type, but that is a very grey area to say the least. And it could still be classified under the same B737 endorsement class even after its re-certification in the future. That remains to be seen.

Boeing can introduce a Differences exam and some sim training to cover off these differences like there are Differences exams for the A319/A320/and A321 because they too have different flight characteristics. No version of the same aircraft will ever be the same.

In fact there are hundreds of aircraft with Differences Exams and different procedures within a certain series. I do a Difference exam every year and get tested every 6 months in the sim. It's COMMON!

But they may not allow it for the MAX. It's GREY!

I don't believe they played the system. It was impossible for Boeing to anticipate the current situation and if they had an inkling they would have been more careful.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:24 am

It seems things are going from bad to worse for Boeing.

Boeing doesn’t expect 737 MAX approval until at least this summer
https://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/new ... yptr=yahoo


Boeing is in talks to borrow $10 billion or more as 737 Max crisis wears on
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/20/737-max ... -more.html
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:38 pm

Pilots may regard the 737 Max as the finest aeroplane ever built ...... but most people are seeing Boeing and many of its products in general, in a rather different light. :wink:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/can-boeing-survive-its-max-problems.html#more
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm

Robin Hood wrote:Pilots may regard the 737 Max as the finest aeroplane ever built ...... but most people are seeing Boeing and many of its products in general, in a rather different light. :wink:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/can-boeing-survive-its-max-problems.html#more

A very good article.

I don't think anyone wants Boeing to be insolvent which would be bad for everyone, especially to the flying public as flights will get more expensive with fewer planes to be delivered to the airlines, but this is ALL Boeing's own doing.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Robin Hood » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:28 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:Pilots may regard the 737 Max as the finest aeroplane ever built ...... but most people are seeing Boeing and many of its products in general, in a rather different light. :wink:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/01/can-boeing-survive-its-max-problems.html#more

A very good article.

I don't think anyone wants Boeing to be insolvent which would be bad for everyone, especially to the flying public as flights will get more expensive with fewer planes to be delivered to the airlines, but this is ALL Boeing's own doing.


I thought this was a very relevant observation ................ it has nothing to do with aeroplanes but it could well crash the Company.

Boeing uses an unusual accounting method that allows it to book costs as profits:

The first thing to know about Boeing’s mad scramble to line up “$10 billion or more” in new funding via a loan from a consortium of banks, on top of the $9.5 billion credit-line it obtained in October last year – efforts to somehow get through its cash-flow nightmare caused by the 737 MAX fiasco – is that the company blew, wasted, and incinerated $43.4 billion to buy back its own shares since June 2013, having become a master of financial engineering instead of aircraft engineering.
...
The second thing to know about Boeing’s mad scramble to borrow another $10 billion is that it already has a huge amount of debt and other liabilities, and that its total liabilities ($136 billion) exceed its total assets ($132 billion) by about $4 billion as of September 2019, meaning that it has negative net equity, that the share buybacks have destroyed its equity, which is what share buybacks do to the balance sheet.

It also means that every dime in “cash” and “cash equivalent” listed on the balance sheet is borrowed.

The method can work when the estimates of future production costs, sales prices and the number of planes to be build are accurate. But the unexpected current expenses for the MAX will now have to be shared over the number of future planes Boeing customers will be willing to take.
.........

The cash cow that the MAX once was might well turn into a loss creating product.

That is why Yves Smith had warned that Boeing's unusual accounting practice could kill the company:

If Boeing and the FAA are still at loggerheads in six months, with still no date for the 737 Max going into service, it isn’t just that pressure on Boeing’s suppliers and customers will become acute, perhaps catastrophic for some. Boeing’s practice of booking future, yet to be earned, profits as current income means persistent negative cash flow could lead to an unraveling. The last time we saw similar accounting was how supposedly risk free future income from [Collateralized Debt Obligations] was discounted and included in the current earnings of banks. Remember how that movie ended?
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:40 am

Oh dear, so you want Boeing to go down do you?

I have never met anyone who is so destructive with such a chip on their shoulder. Such a wonderful and innovative company that has done so much for the industry. Boeing is most certainly a flagship, and an aviation icon employing 400,000 people.

Make no mistake about it. The MAX crisis is only a pimple on their arseholes. A pain in the arse for sure, but in 3 years it's all forgotten.

And I got news for you doomsayers who want the demise of Boeing.

Boeing isn't going anywhere. They will be selling planes long after all of us are pushing up daiseys.

And as for their accounting practices. Well, Boeing is a listed business on the Dow Jones and NASDAQ, and hence must comply with all securities regulations and financial reporting. Their books are verified and signed off by independent firms like KPMG and fully audited.

As for me, I think the best time to buy Boeing shares is between now and June. They probably got a little more downside yet, but that is just an opportunity to buy. Holding their stock is like holding GOLD!

Institutional Investors and Fund managers will be watching Boeing trying to pick the best time to pounce.

As for the B737. yes it is the KING! Few planes earn such a high pedestal among professional circles. Planes such as the Sopwith Camel, Tiger moth, Spitfire, Mustang, B727,Concorde (just coz it was supersonic),DC3, L1011, B707, B747, B737. Yes, the B737 is an icon. A lot of people say it is the best aircraft ever built, but that is a bit subjective. It certainly is an icon, and it certainly is the most successful aircraft ever built.

If Boeing die, it will be like Elvis left the building. The industry would be reeling. The flying public would be worse off and not to mention 400,000 people unable to support their families. It would create a global meltdown similar to the 2008 GFC and there will be a domino effect in Europe, and Australia and the rest of the world. It would be like a Banking Collapse.

Also, Boeing plays a massive part of US and Australian National Security as EW-18G customers. The EW-18G is a vital part of our capability and provides a holistic approach to our Stealth F-35s. It makes the F-35 much more potent.

The US has Chapter 11 protections for businesses like Boeing. If something happens, the US Government steps in to bail them out because they can't afford 400,000 people losing their jobs, or the loss of support for the Poseidon and EW-18G.

Has Boeing applied for Chapter 11? No! And it never will, but the safety net is there if needed. So dream on.

heck, if Boeing went into Chapter 11, even the Australian Government will chip in with a lazy 500 million because we can't afford to lose their support with our very expensive aircraft so vital for our Defence capability. They are too big to fall and too important.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:05 am

Although I do not expect Boeing will become insolvent anytime soon, however, the company’s share prices could very easily suffer big time, just like great companies like General Electric, Lloyds bank, UBS bank and so on, not to mention the demise of iconic companies like Pan Am, TWA and Lehman Brothers. I wouldn’t try to catch a “falling knife” with Boeing’s shares anytime soon if any of the above mentioned companies are any indications to go by.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:19 pm

Kikapu wrote:Although I do not expect Boeing will become insolvent anytime soon, however, the company’s share prices could very easily suffer big time, just like great companies like General Electric, Lloyds bank, UBS bank and so on, not to mention the demise of iconic companies like Pan Am, TWA and Lehman Brothers. I wouldn’t try to catch a “falling knife” with Boeing’s shares anytime soon if any of the above mentioned companies are any indications to go by.


Dops in share price a good, especially for blue chips like Boeing.

They represent great buying opportunities. Not that I would want the current circumstances as people did die, but astute investors will be watching Boeing very closely as any decline is artificial and based more on sentiment and emotion. the big fund managers will be ready to pull the trigger.

Buying a Boeing share is safe as houses once they are over this crisis.
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