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Boeing 737 MAX+

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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:47 am

The MAX will be flying it's just a question mark of when that will happen. I have no reason not to believe it won't be by March 2020, but it could be later depending on the volume of checks that the FAA will insist on conducting.

Worst case scenario is that the MAX will fly by the second half of 2020.

The entire saga has been a massive over reaction. I do not believe the MAX is an unsafe aircraft. I actually believe it is an extremely efficient platform.

And with the scrutiny on it now, I believe it is the safest airliner that will be flying in the world.

I also do not believe Boeing went too far and were guided by greed, and the only area a finger can be pointed is on the flying characteristics of the aircraft, and Boeing keeping it as the same type rating as the B737NG and below. This however, in my book, is a grey area, but in hindsight it should be its own type rating. Airbus, would do the same.

I see no issue with the MCAS which is designed to forward trim in high angles of attack in order to counteract the lifting force created by the larger engines which were slung forward and raised which in affect changed the flight characteristics. I actually think the design of it all is extremely clever.

Personally, I can't wait to see the MAX again. As far as I am concerned, the MAX is a good plane.

As to people not wanting to fly on it, I also believe that 99% of the general public will.

If I have to make a single criticism, it will have to be that perhaps it could be its own type rating, but I also believe Boeing and operators can get away with it from a simple differences exam and a few pilot training drills in the sim. In fact there are only 4 memory items to know. And I think every pilot in the world knows these memory items off by heart by now.

but when you have the amateurish media get involved, everything gets blown out of all proportion and everyone has to react to bullshit. 95% of all MSM articles have been pure nonsense. It happens all the time. You have to be very selective what you read. Most is rubbish, but on occasion there have been a few well researched and well written articles from some broadsheets like the Washington Post and New York Times.

But as I said, 95% nonsense, and 5% gold.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:55 am

Londonrake wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ1DseELk-I

.

It is well explained in the video on the MAX.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:27 pm

The amount of Boeing bashing is now getting quite tiresome.

Today, an Arabic aviation news outlet/group reported that Boeing somehow forgot to fit out 2 newly delivered Boeing 787s to Qatar airways. It was a ridiculous story insinuating that Boeing somehow neglected to install the new QATAR QS seating arrangement as per their contract with Qatar Airways, and that the customer had to return the aircraft back to the US for final fit out.

The truth however is that in accordance with certification of the aircraft under the QATARI register, the 2 airlines had to touch down in DOHA by the 31st of December and because of the time constraints, Boeing did a test and delivery flight to DOHA for inspection by the QATARI regulator yesterday, before flying them back to the US for final fit out today.

It was only a fake news item on facebook from an Arabic aviation site but the frenzy it caused was hysterical, before a Qatari official came on and informed the hords with pitch forks that it was a requirement by Qatar Airways that the planes touchdown in DOHA for inspection before fit out so that the aircraft can be registered by the end of the year as per the customers instructions and that aircraft was flown by Boeing test pilots enroute as they tested all the on board systems making sure everything was ok and logging any final final bugs for rectification.

The Qatari official denied that there was any issue with the 2 aircraft or that Boeing forgot to put the seats. :roll:

Boeing said that the planes were returned to the USA for final fit out after certification and delivery, and wlll also undergo final maintenance and checks before going back to the customer for a full hand over and said that there are permanent representatives from Qatar Airways permanently based in Seattle working with Boeing on the Qatar Contract.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Kikapu » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:27 pm

Paphitis wrote:
I also do not believe Boeing went too far and were guided by greed, and the only area a finger can be pointed is on the flying characteristics of the aircraft, and Boeing keeping it as the same type rating as the B737NG and below. This however, in my book, is a grey area, but in hindsight it should be its own type rating. Airbus, would do the same.

I see no issue with the MCAS which is designed to forward trim in high angles of attack in order to counteract the lifting force created by the larger engines which were slung forward and raised which in affect changed the flight characteristics. I actually think the design of it all is extremely clever.


Sorry Paphitis but, type rating on the MAX or not would not have prevented the two crashes because something triggered the MCAS to become uncontrollable and so did the aircraft itself, even when the MCAS was turned off. These are the root of the MAX’s problems. And yes, Boeing was aware of possible problems of the flying stability characteristics of the MAX without the MCAS, as well as possible problems of the flying stability characteristics of the MAX with the MCAS. The FAA too knew about it, but both the FAA and Boeing failed to raise the alarm after the first crash in the hopes that it was going to be just one off, but then it became two crashes which was going to be difficult to keep quiet on the MAX’s problems. The FAA had already calculated that no less than 13 possible crashes would occur in time before the second crash, but did not raise the alarm. No wonder the black boxes from the second crash were not sent to Boeing, but instead to Airbus in France, as Boeing and the FAA were no longer trusted to issues an accurate findings.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby B25 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:30 am

Somebody in Boeing needs to go to jail for the criminal negligence and manslaughter of those killed. Period. All this BS currently going on is to save some corporate from losing money.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:15 am

B25 wrote:Somebody in Boeing needs to go to jail for the criminal negligence and manslaughter of those killed. Period. All this BS currently going on is to save some corporate from losing money.


No they don't.

That is an injustice against good people. There was no criminal negligence or criminal intent. No one in Boeing went out of there way to develop an inferior product and if there was ever any move to say such a thing Boeing will never accept it and fight everyone in the courts tooth and nail.

Lot's of people saying things like you just did, and that Boeing put profits before lives but that isn't true at all. Boeing did not for a second believe their product was inferior in anyway and the MAX isn't. for as long as Aviation exists, people will get killed. It's a statistical assurety.

I forget the actual statistics now, and they do actually reduce over time, but when I checked it, about 1 passenger is killed per 110,000 flying ours = 0.000009 chance.

Which means that I myself, because of my flying ours had a 20% chance to die in an air crash so far. By retirement my odds could get as high as 40%.

And I have had a couple of close ones in my lifetime where I could have been pushing up daisies.

The chances of someone like you dieing in an air crash though B25, because of the low frequency of your air travel, is so minute B25, it is hardly worth mentioning. You have about a 100 fold greater chance getting killed in your car or in a freak accident in your own home.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:31 am

Kikapu wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
I also do not believe Boeing went too far and were guided by greed, and the only area a finger can be pointed is on the flying characteristics of the aircraft, and Boeing keeping it as the same type rating as the B737NG and below. This however, in my book, is a grey area, but in hindsight it should be its own type rating. Airbus, would do the same.

I see no issue with the MCAS which is designed to forward trim in high angles of attack in order to counteract the lifting force created by the larger engines which were slung forward and raised which in affect changed the flight characteristics. I actually think the design of it all is extremely clever.


Sorry Paphitis but, type rating on the MAX or not would not have prevented the two crashes because something triggered the MCAS to become uncontrollable and so did the aircraft itself, even when the MCAS was turned off. These are the root of the MAX’s problems. And yes, Boeing was aware of possible problems of the flying stability characteristics of the MAX without the MCAS, as well as possible problems of the flying stability characteristics of the MAX with the MCAS. The FAA too knew about it, but both the FAA and Boeing failed to raise the alarm after the first crash in the hopes that it was going to be just one off, but then it became two crashes which was going to be difficult to keep quiet on the MAX’s problems. The FAA had already calculated that no less than 13 possible crashes would occur in time before the second crash, but did not raise the alarm. No wonder the black boxes from the second crash were not sent to Boeing, but instead to Airbus in France, as Boeing and the FAA were no longer trusted to issues an accurate findings.


Nothing would have prevented the crashes and that is what people need to understand.

I don't believe there is anything Boeing could do. it's sad yes. Sad for families. Boeing would be happy to pay out compensation to each one but it still won't bring them back.

Paying each family a million each is a pittance for them and I am certain Boeing will be happy to do that.

The are not animals or anything.

MCAS is actually a proven technology and there is nothing wrong with the system. I also do not believe there is anything wrong with the handling characteristics of the MAX. On the contrary, I actually believe it is an exciting plane that has now been given a very unfair rap from the stupid media.

I believe it will be flying again very soon, just a question of when, and that the MAX will go on and the general public will be oblivious as I agree with that other guy. 90% of people won't even now they are on a MAX. 8% who do know are probably professionals in the aviation sector and won't care, and the 2% who might know and be nervous flyers might have an issue in the short term at least.

Sorry Kikapu, but I am really sick of the negative publicity now as I believe it has been excessive and a terrible over reaction. Seems to be a lot of let's cut down Boeing a peg or 2. The are a megalith company that have done a lot for the industry. It's a bit like tall poppy syndrome now. Either that or they general public expect total perfection and a zero tolerance to mishaps which is unrealistic.

I am finding it very difficult to find anything that was actually done wrong where laws and practices were actually violated.

Even if we scrape the bottom of the barrel, we may be able to say that Boeing training and implementation of the MAX was deficient, something they recognized themselves and rectified before the Ethiopian crash, and if we are to scrape further the only thing we can say is perhaps it should be its own type rating because legacy B737NG operators would find themselves in situations where they would encounter unexpected flight conditions and potentially react in the wrong way. But even there, it's a grey area.

No alarms were raised because I don't believe there is anything wrong with the aircraft or its stability. Boeing engineers were always aware of its flight characteristics during certain high Angles of Attack which the aircraft is unlikely to find itself in and they installed the MCAS for those scenarios, which is a technology that has been installed on a number of aircraft like the KC-135 Tanker (Airbus) and the L-1011 Tristar.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby erolz66 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:50 am

Paphitis wrote:Nothing would have prevented the crashes and that is what people need to understand.


Bollocks.

Paphitis wrote:I don't believe there is anything Boeing could do. it's sad yes. Sad for families. Boeing would be happy to pay out compensation to each one but it still won't bring them back.

Paying each family a million each is a pittance for them and I am certain Boeing will be happy to do that.

The are not animals or anything.


It is reported that compensation to the VICTIMS of this tragedy is around 144,000 USD per victim. The now fired CEO under who's charge this all happened is reported to be getting a 52,000,000 million pay off. Boeing happy to do that.

Paphitis wrote:MCAS is actually a proven technology and there is nothing wrong with the system. I also do not believe there is anything wrong with the handling characteristics of the MAX. On the contrary, I actually believe it is an exciting plane that has now been given a very unfair rap from the stupid media.


Two crashes and 300 plus people killed. I guess that little detail has nothing to do with them getting a bad 'rap'. No it is all the media's fault. Nothing to do with Boeing at all.

There is nothing wrong with MCAS. There is something wrong with MCAS on a plane that gets it's input data from a single failed sensor feeding it bogus information and that when disengaged immediately re engages itself on a plane certified as the same type as planes without such a system. Boeing has to answer for it's actions and decisions as does the FAA. You just want to whitewash the whole thing which is just an insult to those who lost their lives and their loved ones on these flights.

Paphitis wrote:I believe it will be flying again very soon, ...


Yeah and you said this over 9 months ago as well. You were patently wrong and talking bollocks then. What has changed since ?

Paphitis wrote:Sorry Kikapu, but I am really sick of the negative publicity now as I believe it has been excessive and a terrible over reaction. Seems to be a lot of let's cut down Boeing a peg or 2. The are a megalith company that have done a lot for the industry. It's a bit like tall poppy syndrome now. Either that or they general public expect total perfection and a zero tolerance to mishaps which is unrealistic.


Two BOEING planes of the same type crashed in a short space of time. Hundreds lost their lives. Thousands of family and friends are mourning the loss. But hey let us not say anything bad about Boeing.

Paphitis wrote:I am finding it very difficult to find anything that was actually done wrong where laws and practices were actually violated.


Of course you are. You exonerated Boeing and the entire industry you claim to work in within a days of the 2nd crash, before any real evidence had been uncovered or published. It was your starting point that these crashes were nothing to do with Boeing. You started with "Boeing is beyond reproach". Why let reality and evidence interfere with that ?

Paphitis wrote:No alarms were raised because I don't believe there is anything wrong with the aircraft or its stability. Boeing engineers were always aware of its flight characteristics during certain high Angles of Attack which the aircraft is unlikely to find itself in and they installed the MCAS for those scenarios, which is a technology that has been installed on a number of aircraft like the KC-135 Tanker (Airbus) and the L-1011 Tristar.


Again more bollocks, much like the claim that Boeing own Haliburton,Ratheyon and Lockheed-Martin.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby Paphitis » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:05 am

So what about the 2 crashes in the space of whatever time period.

I have been in the game for a very long time, and I know disaster can strike at any time and for any reason.

The issue here is whether the MAX is a good aircraft and whether it should fly again and the overall culpability of Boeing.

In my opinion, there was no chance in hell Boeing, or the global regulators could have foreseen or acted in a manner that resulted in these crashes. Boeing does have some culpability over the handling but it's an extremely grey area. In the end, they are just going to do whatever to get their fine product flying again.

And make no mistake about it. The MAX is a superb little platform that will fly again and there is no reason why that should not occur.

300 people died! Well, lightning sometimes strikes. One A380 need only go down and there is 400 to 500 people dead, Does that mean the A380 is a bad platform? Certainly not.

What I am starting to notice is that the industry is starting to get a little fed up with the media and the public reaction, and is now starting to support Boeing. There are feelings that the overall reaction is becoming a massive over reaction and as a result of that Boeing is starting to get a lot of support.

Everyone is sad about the loss of life. But it will be a good day for the aviation community when we see the Max grace the sky because from what I can see, it is the best version of the B737 ever built.

The fact that 2 went down is just bad luck.
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Re: Boeing 737 MAX+

Postby erolz66 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:48 am

What happend to this Paphitis ? Posted it and then decided to remove it did you ? Too late.

Paphitis wrote:BTW, the authorities know where MH370 is. I'm willing to only inform Kikaku and only via PM. No one else. Exact position is known but it is suppressed for political reasons.


Do the authorities also know that Boeing owns "Haliburton,Ratheyon and Lockheed-Martin" but are suppressing that for political reasons as well ? What you think you know and reality are two different things. Some people learn from being wrong and become less wrong over time. Then there is you Paphitis.
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